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eHam Forums => DXing => Topic started by: AF3Y on February 22, 2013, 02:51:54 PM



Title: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AF3Y on February 22, 2013, 02:51:54 PM
I had a hard drive crash.  Loaded LOTW onto my laptop, got a new certif, did everything according to the instructions (I guess I did ???).  It wont let me upload a file now.  I keep getting: Processing ABORTED: INVALID CERTIFICATE - Certificate has been revoked
I dont know what the effing hell is wrong, but to say I am pissed is an understatement.  I have never been a fan of LOTW anyway.............. >:( >:(
Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: N4NYY on February 22, 2013, 03:00:10 PM
Relax Gene. I do not think it is you or anything you did. I seem to remember getting a new computer and having the same issue. If you need to call me, let me know thru PM and I will send you my phone.


https://p1k.arrl.org/lotw/faq#crash (https://p1k.arrl.org/lotw/faq#crash)

My computer crashed.

If you saved your certificates as p12 files then recovering from PC failure is a simple process:

    Open TQSLCERT
    Select FILE > LOAD CERTIFICATE FILE
    Select PKCS#12 (p12) as the file to load, then load your file.

When finished you should have a gold ribbon certificate for your call. Load the p12 file for your current call first. Repeat the process for other p12 files that you may have for other calls that you manage.

If you did not save p12 files then you will have to request a new certificate. See Getting Started for instructions on requesting a certificate.

 


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: N4NYY on February 22, 2013, 03:02:17 PM
Shit. I should have put the info in case you did not save your p12 file as it says in the last line:

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/LoTW%20Instructions/Request%20a%20new%20certificate%20for%20any%20call%20sign.pdf (http://www.arrl.org/files/file/LoTW%20Instructions/Request%20a%20new%20certificate%20for%20any%20call%20sign.pdf)



Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AF3Y on February 22, 2013, 03:24:33 PM
Thanks, Vinnie...... I think (?) I did that, but no luck.  I have so many different tq8 an p12s and whatever, I just sent a ticket to ARRL. I will get it worked out Monday (Maybe.......)

This is just one more log on the fire toward my bailing out of this hobby. The thrill is gone, no ATNOs on the horizon, QRM/LIDS getting worse, etc., etc.

I reached my goal a while back when I got my confirmation for #300.  I promised myself when i started in 2006 that I would not quit until I made 300.  I have stuck around, but as I said above, the thrill is gone. The BS is getting bigger than the joy of an ATNO.

I guess the biggest thing is the LIDS.  I would rather have a root canal than work SSB again. Its hard to believe the crap that goes on .........

To  me, serious DXing (and contesting) is LOUD and RUDE by nature. That part of the hobby has always turned me off. Just think of the times that everyone could have gotten their QSO if everybody did not HAVE TO BE FIRST.  Louder and Ruder............ :(  I have never liked loud people, so DXing does not really fit me....

Thanks for the info.  I will see what happens Monday, as I cant seem to get it done on my own.

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: W5DQ on February 22, 2013, 03:27:03 PM
I had a hard drive crash.  Loaded LOTW onto my laptop, got a new certif, did everything according to the instructions (I guess I did ???).  It wont let me upload a file now.  I keep getting: Processing ABORTED: INVALID CERTIFICATE - Certificate has been revoked
I dont know what the effing hell is wrong, but to say I am pissed is an understatement.  I have never been a fan of LOTW anyway.............. >:( >:(
Gene AF3Y

Gene,

Sorry to hear about the problem. Hopefully you can get it resolved with ARRL or other's help.

This is a good place to make a point about backing up IMPORTANT data such as LOTW certificates, browser favorites, email contacts, email texts, banking / checkbook electronic data, whatever you have on your computer onto a SEPERATE media such as a CD-R, DVD+/-R, thumbdrive, floppy, whatever, just to avoid these sort of gotchas! I keep a backup of my LOTW certificates along with other important personal data on to a thumbdrive and another copy to a DVD-R disc and put both into seperate locations (one copy in a fireproof safe). I also make a habit of backing up my electronic logbooks onto thumbdrives (multiple copies rotated at each use) just like I do my Quicken banking data. After having lost data in the past by having only ONE copy of backup data and finding it flawed when called on to restore a corrupted hard drive, I now routinely keep 2 (at a minimum) and usually 3 copies of any backup data. Some might say this is paranoid but I have never lost any data since starting this method, even when a 1 TB RAID system bit the dust (controller crapped the bed and killed both 1 TB drives configured as RAID 0 - lost all the data on that set but had backup of backup and all was ok).

You can NEVER have too secure a backup of your data.

Gene W5DQ


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: N4NYY on February 22, 2013, 04:11:56 PM
Thanks, Vinnie...... I think (?) I did that, but no luck.  I have so many different tq8 an p12s and whatever, I just sent a ticket to ARRL. I will get it worked out Monday (Maybe.......)

This is just one more log on the fire toward my bailing out of this hobby. The thrill is gone, no ATNOs on the horizon, QRM/LIDS getting worse, etc., etc.

I reached my goal a while back when I got my confirmation for #300.  I promised myself when i started in 2006 that I would not quit until I made 300.  I have stuck around, but as I said above, the thrill is gone. The BS is getting bigger than the joy of an ATNO.

I guess the biggest thing is the LIDS.  I would rather have a root canal than work SSB again. Its hard to believe the crap that goes on .........

To  me, serious DXing (and contesting) is LOUD and RUDE by nature. That part of the hobby has always turned me off. Just think of the times that everyone could have gotten their QSO if everybody did not HAVE TO BE FIRST.  Louder and Ruder............ :(  I have never liked loud people, so DXing does not really fit me....

Thanks for the info.  I will see what happens Monday, as I cant seem to get it done on my own.

73, Gene AF3Y

I can understand your frustration. I have taken a new job and have not been able to do any DXing. I have not gotten Burundi because I am traveling more often. I will see if I can get them tomorrow.

I am also sick of the SSB asses. While one of the easiest things to to is accidentally transmit on the RX fre when working split, and while I pretty much sit on the sidelines with 100W, I here people constantly ridicule people that do it in a terrible tone. Just tell the damn guy he is working split and save the name calling.

One thing I am doing it more rag chewing instead of DX. I rebuilt my 1983 station which was a CB that my dad gave me for Christmas. He is not doing well, so I wanted to restore it and set it up for him to see. He could not believe it that I still had it after 30 years. I rag chew on that and I also rag chew on 2M and on HF, usually local 10M group. I do not find the freq cops nearly as much on rag chew as I do on DX freqs. And it is a nice change of pace. Then when I get the urge, I go back to DX. One thing you may want to try is long distance rag chew. I hear a few people do that assuming there is good propagation.


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AA6YQ on February 22, 2013, 05:00:27 PM
Thanks, Vinnie...... I think (?) I did that, but no luck.  I have so many different tq8 an p12s and whatever, I just sent a ticket to ARRL.

If you have a .p12 file for your lost certificate, then you can quickly recover it without help from the ARRL. If you need assistance, let me know and I will call you and step you through the procedure.

     73,

           Dave, AA6YQ


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AF3Y on February 22, 2013, 06:59:43 PM
Thanks, Vinnie...... I think (?) I did that, but no luck.  I have so many different tq8 an p12s and whatever, I just sent a ticket to ARRL.

If you have a .p12 file for your lost certificate, then you can quickly recover it without help from the ARRL. If you need assistance, let me know and I will call you and step you through the procedure.

     73,

           Dave, AA6YQ

The only .p12 I have is for AF3Y, says created februrary 26 2010, and modified on February 19, 2013. I also got an email from Norm with ARRL.

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AA6YQ on February 22, 2013, 09:05:29 PM
Thanks, Vinnie...... I think (?) I did that, but no luck.  I have so many different tq8 an p12s and whatever, I just sent a ticket to ARRL.

If you have a .p12 file for your lost certificate, then you can quickly recover it without help from the ARRL. If you need assistance, let me know and I will call you and step you through the procedure.

     73,

           Dave, AA6YQ

The only .p12 I have is for AF3Y, says created februrary 26 2010, and modified on February 19, 2013. I also got an email from Norm with ARRL.


If AF3Y is the certificate that you lost, then you can restore it from that .p12 file:

1. run the ARRL's TQSLCert application

2. select the File menu's Load Certificate File option

3. in the Load Certificate File window, select PKC#12(.p12) certificate file, and click the Next button

4. in the Select Certificate File window, select your .p12 file, and click the Open button

5. when prompted to Enter password to unlock PKCS#12 file, enter the password you specified when you first created the .p12 file, and click the Next button

6. in the Load Certificate File window, click the Finish button


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AF3Y on February 23, 2013, 04:51:35 AM

If AF3Y is the certificate that you lost, then you can restore it from that .p12 file:

1. run the ARRL's TQSLCert application

2. select the File menu's Load Certificate File option

3. in the Load Certificate File window, select PKC#12(.p12) certificate file, and click the Next button

4. in the Select Certificate File window, select your .p12 file, and click the Open button

5. when prompted to Enter password to unlock PKCS#12 file, enter the password you specified when you first created the .p12 file, and click the Next button

6. in the Load Certificate File window, click the Finish button

Dave,, LOTW says that I requested a new certificate, and that I am trying to use the old one. Norm says he will reinstate the old one on Monday, so that should fix it. THANKS!  73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: N3QE on February 23, 2013, 05:21:16 AM
To  me, serious DXing (and contesting) is LOUD and RUDE by nature. That part of the hobby has always turned me off. Just think of the times that everyone could have gotten their QSO if everybody did not HAVE TO BE FIRST.  Louder and Ruder............ :(  I have never liked loud people, so DXing does not really fit me....

With a very modest station myself, I have always approached it the other way: it's about being clever and dropping my call in at the right time, just far enough away from the pack, and perfectly out of phase with the guys with the big amps. To me that defines both DX'ing and contesting.

While so many talk about the goal as being pileup-busting, I try hard to not even be part of the pileup. Rate is so important to much of contesting that it becomes more about being agile and willing to not get the jump ball and move on. Contesting has taught me that just because I miss any one QSO, or any DXpedition on any given night, there is always a new band/mult combo to be found when you least expect it.

Of course I am not a serious contester or DX'er by any means. Except for those top-10 scores I've gotten in DX contests in the past year :-).

And back to the original subject... the guys at the LOTW help desk will get you through this. I think it's pretty much a forgone conclusion that I will need their help every time I get a new certificate. But if you follow their advice about backing up your new certificate, it will be easier next time there's a hard disk crash. Think about it this way: no matter how many of your hard disks crash, they will still be there and have a copy of your log. That's a hugely valuable service.

Tim.


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AC4RD on February 23, 2013, 08:43:50 AM
  I have so many different tq8 an p12s and whatever, I just sent a ticket to ARRL. I will get it worked out Monday (Maybe.......)

This is just one more log on the fire toward my bailing out of this hobby. The thrill is gone, no ATNOs on the horizon, QRM/LIDS getting worse, etc., etc.
... is the LIDS.  I would rather have a root canal than work SSB again. Its hard to believe the crap that goes on .......

Gene, I've had the same problem trying to use different computers for LOTW; several times I've gotten tangled up in what certificate was the newest.  For me, the easy answer has always been to request a brand-new certificate from ARRL and start from there.  For me, this has worked every time.

I got seriously disgusted with DX behavior a few years ago and didn't touch a radio for a couple of years.  And I *agree* with you about phone DXing.  I got back into the hobby doing portable CW from my back yard, with my riding mower for power, then did QRP for a while--that can be FUN!  And now I'm about 98% RTTY and CW, where the lids seem to be fewest.  I'm enjoying ham radio again--and I hope you get back to that point, too!  73 GL!  --ken


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: K0AP on February 23, 2013, 02:10:04 PM
I enjoy in the hobby now as much as I did when I first started (1986). No LID, DX cop, QRM, lack of ATNO will ever make me quit. Those who want to leave HAM radio will not be missed. Less noise and competition in the pileups. Adios!

73 Dragan K0AP


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AF3Y on February 23, 2013, 03:17:03 PM
When someone sets their goals or standards low enough, its easy to be very successful. (But to generate a false sense of above average accomplishment.)

73,  Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: K0AP on February 23, 2013, 03:24:13 PM
When someone sets their goals or standards low enough, its easy to be very successful. (But to generate a false sense of above average accomplishment.)

73,  Gene AF3Y

Whatever floats your boat Gene.

73 Dragan K0AP


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AH6RR on February 24, 2013, 12:14:57 AM
When someone sets their goals or standards low enough, its easy to be very successful. (But to generate a false sense of above average accomplishment.)

73,  Gene AF3Y

Whatever floats your boat Gene.

73 Dragan K0AP

Dragan I know what you mean and as my Mother used to say, Gene "Don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out" or just take a break for a while. I still get the thrill when I work a ATNO as I did when I first started in 86 Hell I still get a thrill out of working DX period. I do a lot of DX ragchewing and it is a blast. I love BB King but for me the Thrill Is (not) Gone. I just ignore the Lids and Cop's since they are all the same just a bunch of idiots with the brains of a 3 year old and if you think it's bad on the Ham bands just check out the CB frequencies it makes the Ham bands sound tame I was just doing some SWL'ing the other day and ran through 27Mhz now that's a freaking zoo 24/7. By the way I got 2 ATNO's today and it puts my total to 287 and makes me want more even though I know they will be few and far between now.

73 and Aloha,
Roland AH6RR


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AA6YQ on February 24, 2013, 12:18:33 AM
  I have so many different tq8 an p12s and whatever, I just sent a ticket to ARRL. I will get it worked out Monday (Maybe.......)

This is just one more log on the fire toward my bailing out of this hobby. The thrill is gone, no ATNOs on the horizon, QRM/LIDS getting worse, etc., etc.
... is the LIDS.  I would rather have a root canal than work SSB again. Its hard to believe the crap that goes on .......

Gene, I've had the same problem trying to use different computers for LOTW; several times I've gotten tangled up in what certificate was the newest.  For me, the easy answer has always been to request a brand-new certificate from ARRL and start from there. 

Yes, but you're placing an unnecessary load on the LotW Help Desk. What would happen if every LotW user did what you're doing?

It's a simple matter to direct TQSLCert to save each of your certificates to a .p12 file, and then backup those .p12 files just like you would your log. Should your PC crash, you'll be able to recover your certificates from your .p12 files in minutes. You can also use a .p12 file to effectively copy a certificate from one PC to another: copy the .p12 from the source PC to the destination PC, and run TQSLCert on the destination PC to obtain your certificate from the .p12 file you just moved there.


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: W1VT on February 24, 2013, 12:58:21 AM
Don't worry about needing a new certificate--from what I've heard, numerous times, directly from LoTW staff, is that issuing a new certificate is no big deal.

Much better that you ask for a new certificate than you get frustrated with LoTW.

Zack W1VT


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AC4RD on February 24, 2013, 04:49:40 AM
Don't worry about needing a new certificate--from what I've heard, numerous times, directly from LoTW staff, is that issuing a new certificate is no big deal.

Much better that you ask for a new certificate than you get frustrated with LoTW.

Zack, many thanks for the reassurance.  I'm actually pretty careful about keeping backups, including of my certificates, but when you have three desktops and a half-dozen laptops it gets hard to be sure you've got the most recent certificate files.

BTW, I sure have enjoyed a lot of your articles over the years.


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: N3QE on February 24, 2013, 05:04:10 AM
Yes, but you're placing an unnecessary load on the LotW Help Desk. What would happen if every LotW user did what you're doing?

I don't think there's a lot to be embarrassed about. It is SURPRISINGLY easy to goof up a certificate renewal or misplace a certificate or mix up your backup of the "new one" with the "old one" and find out that what you thought was the "new one" was really the revoked "old one".

And the LOTW help desk guys have gotten me through it quickly every time.

Tim.


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: N4NYY on February 24, 2013, 08:21:36 AM
Quote
es, but you're placing an unnecessary load on the LotW Help Desk. What would happen if every LotW user did what you're doing?

It would be damn near impossible to remember every intricate detail of LoTW setup. The fact of the matter is that it is very common for people to get a new computer or hard drive and have this problem. And they are not going to remember several years back regarding the certificate shenanigans. If everyone had to figure out things on their own in any area of technology, then there would be a hell of a lot of unemployed helpdesk people.

What would you rather have? A job with a burden or no job?


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AA6YQ on February 25, 2013, 12:41:01 AM
Quote
es, but you're placing an unnecessary load on the LotW Help Desk. What would happen if every LotW user did what you're doing?

It would be damn near impossible to remember every intricate detail of LoTW setup. The fact of the matter is that it is very common for people to get a new computer or hard drive and have this problem. And they are not going to remember several years back regarding the certificate shenanigans. If everyone had to figure out things on their own in any area of technology, then there would be a hell of a lot of unemployed helpdesk people.

What would you rather have? A job with a burden or no job?

I provided an explanation so that it would not be necessary to request a new certificate.

The procedure for moving certificates between computers has long been documented in step-by-step fashion (http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/LotWMoveToAnotherPC). Similar step-by-step documentation will be included in the next version of TQSL. A future version of TQSL will provide automation for the process of moving certificates and "station locations" from one computer to another.

The ARRL Help Desk staff have many higher-value activities to undertake than to repeatedly issue new certificates to users who failed to backup their certificates in .p12 files and thus left themselves vulnerable to hardware and software failures, or who moved .tq6 files from one computer to another.


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: W5DQ on February 25, 2013, 02:09:31 PM
Quote
es, but you're placing an unnecessary load on the LotW Help Desk. What would happen if every LotW user did what you're doing?

It would be damn near impossible to remember every intricate detail of LoTW setup. The fact of the matter is that it is very common for people to get a new computer or hard drive and have this problem. And they are not going to remember several years back regarding the certificate shenanigans. If everyone had to figure out things on their own in any area of technology, then there would be a hell of a lot of unemployed helpdesk people.

What would you rather have? A job with a burden or no job?

I'll take a job (and already have one) where I don't have to deal directly with customers. I have so many levels of bigshots over me at the current job (or at least they consider themselves bigshots) that I only have to deal with engineers and s/w developers. I find it very amusing that as long as LOTW has been around that there are many that still can't just follow the WRITTEN directions and do it the first time or keep it backed up once installed and working. The instructions tell you precisely how and why to do a backup of your certificate as a P12 file. Common computer practices that have been around as long as there have been computers have detailed how to succesfully do backups and how to handle multiple backup revisions. It's not rocket science by no means. Golden Rule is to NEVER keep a backup file on the main operating hard disk. If the main operating disk goes TU, then there goes the backup too. CDs, DVDs, and thumbdrives all make excellent backup media and thumbdrives allow easy updates with new backup revisions with no muss, no fuss.

I have helped many in our local club and area setup LOTW and not inculding the wait for the 'postcard', it can be done in less than 10 minutes and this includes uploading a large logbook the first time. Sure it take a little while to get that upload processed but it's not like the data is being used to prevent a world war or such. Once your certificate has been obtained from the ARRL and loaded into TQSL program, first thing to do is make a P12 backup and save that to an off disk storage element (CD, DVD, thumbdrive, etc) and store that away safely. I keep a copy with my logbook backups and another with my important backups on media in a fireproof safe. If the hard disk crashes, I simply reload the logging program, restore the latest logbook backup and load on TQSL program and restore the P12 file. Back online in a matter of minutes (of course not counting the time to install new hardware).

I have always held that if you can operate a new state of the art transceiver, you should be able to setup and use LOTW with no problems. I guess there are exceptions to every rule???


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AF3Y on February 25, 2013, 03:13:42 PM
Well pardon the hell out of me for overloading the damned LOTW system. Jesus Christ, guys. I wish now that I had not said anything here on the forum. You  guys seem to expect everyone else to be as software and computer savvy as you are. Guess what? I am not. AND I dont do software OR computers for a living or as a hobby.

I was in the heavy construction (roads, bridges, infrastructure) industry for most of my life. I can probably still operate most excavation and grading equipment quite well, even tho I have been retired for 11 years now. I did not operate equipment, except on rare occasion, for some 10 years prior to retiring. I sat on my ass and got fat, so its been 20+ years since I even started equipment up. (Someone would have to help me get up there on it! :o)

If I gave you an operators manual for a motor grader and asked you to grade a road for me, within a half inch or so of proposed grade, could you do it?  I doubt it. With the manual, you probably could turn it on, start it up, drive it around, and that would be just about the extent of your untrained expertise. You could not do anything even close to precise with it.

Many, if not most folks my age probably know even less about computers than I do, which is not a lot. But, I try, and when I dont get it done, I ask for help. If that is not the proper thing to do, then I guess I screwed up. So What? The sun is gonna come up tomorrow, and I am not going to crash LOTW by asking them for help. I am sure they would let me know if I had bothered them.

I am glad you guys are so happy and buried in your hightech work that you have now taken to berating someone who does not have your experience or training. OVER NOTHING.

I really want to say something really really rude here, but what the hell. Its just another day in paradise...... You guys can just keep on keeping on........... 8)

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: N4NYY on February 25, 2013, 03:47:42 PM

Quote
I have always held that if you can operate a new state of the art transceiver, you should be able to setup and use LOTW with no problems. I guess there are exceptions to every rule???

LoTW is far from 1-2-3 setup. I did not recall any setup problem. The only problem I had was when I got a new computer, and used the FAQ to fix it. But that is just me. I only had 1 P12 file to locate. None the less, it is a paid service because you cannot utilize any QSL unless you pay for the credits. And if that is the case, you should have the ability to get help.


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: N4NYY on February 25, 2013, 03:54:07 PM
Quote
The procedure for moving certificates between computers has long been documented in step-by-step fashion. Similar step-by-step documentation will be included in the next version of TQSL. A future version of TQSL will provide automation for the process of moving certificates and "station locations" from one computer to another.

Correct. I used it once when I got a new computer and worked well. Saying that, my DX elmer who was a saint of a man, had trouble uploading a ADI file and for whatever reason, he could not do it. This was attributed to an upgrade to his DX logger that changed the way he was to upload. When he could not do it, I went over there and did it for him. And before anyone questions his his abilities, he was a genius.

http://obits.nj.com/obituaries/southjerseytimes/obituary-print.aspx?n=douglas-g-gehring&pid=160676612 (http://obits.nj.com/obituaries/southjerseytimes/obituary-print.aspx?n=douglas-g-gehring&pid=160676612)


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: KD8MJR on February 25, 2013, 04:04:17 PM

Quote
I have always held that if you can operate a new state of the art transceiver, you should be able to setup and use LOTW with no problems. I guess there are exceptions to every rule???

LoTW is far from 1-2-3 setup. I did not recall any setup problem. The only problem I had was when I got a new computer, and used the FAQ to fix it. But that is just me. I only had 1 P12 file to locate. None the less, it is a paid service because you cannot utilize any QSL unless you pay for the credits. And if that is the case, you should have the ability to get help.

LoTW is not a 123 setup.  I wrote software for 10 years and eventually even I had to call the help desk to get mine going.   LoTW is not a very intuitive setup and the documentation is a bit confusing.  Sometimes things work as planned as it did on my second PC but most of the time you get waist deep into problems getting it up and running.



Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AF3Y on February 25, 2013, 05:08:02 PM

most of the time you get waist deep into problems getting it up.

Wait until you get to be my age ;D (Just COULD NOT resist that!)

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: K7KB on February 25, 2013, 09:33:47 PM
LoTW is not a 123 setup.  I wrote software for 10 years and eventually even I had to call the help desk to get mine going.   LoTW is not a very intuitive setup and the documentation is a bit confusing.  Sometimes things work as planned as it did on my second PC but most of the time you get waist deep into problems getting it up and running.

I know what you are saying. I consider myself fairly computer savvy but I still had issues getting LOTW setup when I first started using it. I haven't had any problems since then, moving the certificate around to 2 different computers in the last couple of months. I would imagine that LOTW can be very intimidating to many users.

John K7KB


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: NU1O on February 25, 2013, 10:20:37 PM
Gene should be able to get the help he needs from the LoTW desk.  LoTW generates a lot of money. It's not our fault the ARRL executives run it with a skeleton crew. They must have been diverting the LoTW profit to pet projects all these years. When the bottleneck problem arouse they finally put some needed resources back into the project.

Gene is one of the elder statesmen of this forum and he deserves to be treated with respect.

Rather than criticizing Gene I think he should be commended for getting into ham radio at an advanced age and on top of it he came out of an industry where he didn't even use a PC at his daily job. He also taught himself the code which many don't know.

I have been fooling with computers since my days in college so it's not a fair comparison between me, or many in this forum who come from technical backgrounds, and Gene who comes from heavy industry.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: WD4ELG on February 25, 2013, 10:29:44 PM
AF3Y/Gene, that last post had me on the floor in laughter!

Folks, let's remember something here.  Some folks learn best by reading.  Others remember by pictures.  Others are audio learners, learn by hearing.  Still others are kinsethetic, learn by doing.  Some are a mix, some are extreme one way or another. 

The folks who learn by hands on with someone showing them...are NOT going to learn by reading it.  It just ain't gonna happen, their brains are wired different.  Not better or worse, just different. 

Ever seen smart people struggle in classrooms, but ace the laboratory work?  Those are the kinesthetics.  Folks that "never have to crack a book" are audio learners.  Visual recalls of maps and pictures and places are visual learners.

Just some examples.  I am a strong kinesthetic learner, and an extreme picture/visual learner.  I almost never read the manual except when I get stuck.  I like to ask questions or just power through.  Getting on the air with the Flex radio was a challenge for me, but once I powered through it...it made sense. 

Same with LoTW.  I read the instructions like 6 times.  I sort of understood it, but did not "get it."  Oh, I received the postcard and had my login set OK.  But the certificates, protecting them and backing them up...was all like some dialect of the long lost tribes of Bwana Bunga.  The concept finally clicked one Saturday night late when I was just fooling around with the TQSLCert program.  And I drew out a picture of what was happening.  And it made sense.  If I can diagram it, I get it.

I think somewhere there is a diagram of the process on the ARRL website, but I can't find it. 

Well here's a great written explanation (supposedly) of certificates, which looks to me like chickens in a break-dancing contest.  It means nothing to me as a picture learner.
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc776447(v=WS.10).aspx

This is better, but not much.
http://www.digi-sign.com/digital%20certificate/how%20digital%20certificates%20work

To understand LoTW, I needed to know WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON.  I needed to understand some basics of WHY and WHAT.

1. What is ARRL trying to do?  Verify the user and implement some sort of authenticity to the LoTW program.

2. How are they doing it?   Using a digital certificate process.

3. What the HELL is a digital certificate? http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=digital+certificates+identity&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=digital+certificates+identity&sc=1-29&sp=-1&sk=#view=detail&id=DE220764DAAFEE75AEF0257F71C19ABC9E7E19C7&selectedIndex=7

4. How do I get one, how does it work?  http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=digital+certificates+identity&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=digital+certificates+identity&sc=1-29&sp=-1&sk=&&id=04CD0A3FE651BEB5B81BBFFC28E138F9D266D108&selectedIndex=8#view=detail&id=04CD0A3FE651BEB5B81BBFFC28E138F9D266D108&selectedIndex=0

Here is a written explanation that my hard head can understand: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_digital_signature_work

This is a pretty good visual: http://www.youdzone.com/signature.html


The question everyone is asking is why did the ARRL go to such lengths with all this for LoTW?  Integrity of the LoTW process.

Why is it so complicated?  Complicated compared to what?  It's straightforward basic cryptography.  Crypto is not basic, but if somebody shows me with pictures what is being attempted, then I can understand it.

The problem is that I don't think the story and the logic behind LoTW is being told near and far.  Single Side Band?  Oh, EVERYBODY gets why we have SSB over AM.  And CW over spark gap.  But LoTW over mail in?  And LoTW security?  Needs to be a better story told there, in my humble opinion (and so says a bunch of folks who struggle with it).



Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: WD4ELG on February 25, 2013, 10:31:38 PM
I meant to say that Gene's last post had me cracking up.


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: KD8MJR on February 26, 2013, 02:15:33 PM

most of the time you get waist deep into problems getting it up.

Wait until you get to be my age ;D (Just COULD NOT resist that!)

73, Gene AF3Y

 ;D ;D ;D  That one bought tears to my eyes While Laughing  ;D


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: KD8MJR on February 26, 2013, 02:23:40 PM
Folks, let's remember something here.  Some folks learn best by reading.  Others remember by pictures.  Others are audio learners, learn by hearing.  Still others are kinsethetic, learn by doing.  Some are a mix, some are extreme one way or another. 

The folks who learn by hands on with someone showing them...are NOT going to learn by reading it.  It just ain't gonna happen, their brains are wired different.  Not better or worse, just different. 

----Snip---

The problem is that I don't think the story and the logic behind LoTW is being told near and far.  Single Side Band?  Oh, EVERYBODY gets why we have SSB over AM.  And CW over spark gap.  But LoTW over mail in?  And LoTW security?  Needs to be a better story told there, in my humble opinion (and so says a bunch of folks who struggle with it).

The Real problem with Lotw is that the Installation interface is a kludge!
If it was re written the Arrl help desk would probably get only 5% of the calls that they get today!  Instead for some reason that only the ARRL knows they think that spending tens of thousands of dollars per year in Tech support is better than  spending maybe $5000 to get a good app developer make a proper installation interface and package.


Title: RE: LOTW certificate revoked?????????????
Post by: AA6YQ on February 26, 2013, 06:46:01 PM
Gene, I did not chastise you for seeking help with an LotW installation problem. In describing your attempt to recover from a hard disk crash, you said "I have so many different tq8 an p12s and whatever, I just sent a ticket to ARRL." I pointed out that you could sort this out for yourself, cited step-by-step instructions for doing so, and offered to help.

Yes, TQSL's installation procedure and documentation could be improved. We're working on it.

      73,

         Dave, AA6YQ