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eHam Forums => CW => Topic started by: N5RDE on February 26, 2013, 02:35:15 PM



Title: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: N5RDE on February 26, 2013, 02:35:15 PM
The Vibroplex Original currently ships with the No. 401 (one ounce) weight.  Does anyone know
the approximate speed ranges of the key with, respectively,

The No. 401 (large) weight?

The No. 402 (4/5 ounce - medium) weight?

The No. 403 (2/5 ounce - small) weight?


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: PA0BLAH on February 27, 2013, 02:38:47 AM
The Vibroplex Original currently ships with the No. 401 (one ounce) weight.  Does anyone know
the approximate speed ranges of the key with, respectively,

The No. 401 (large) weight?

The No. 402 (4/5 ounce - medium) weight?

The No. 403 (2/5 ounce - small) weight?

You got no answer.

Did you not get math and physics in school?

Long, long, very long time ago, but _I_remember some basics.

K=m.a .   A force K on a mass m yields an acceleration a.

s=K.c  A force K on a (vibroplex spring) yields a displacement s
c is a constant in your bug.

Now when you release the mass it starts swinging. As you know that means a harmonic movement. So the pendulum
as function of the time has the position s(t)=sin (wt) with w =2.pi.f and f the (dit)frequency.
the speed is the first derivative so v(t)=w.cos(wt)
the acceleration is the first derivative of the speed hence a(t)=-w.w.sin(wt)

And we know k=m.a  and also s=K.c so  s=c.m.a

s(t)=sin wt
s(t)=-c.m.w.w.sin(wt)

Hence c.m.w.w=-1

So doubling the mass makes your ditfrequency 0.707 of what is was.

Bob


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: W0WCA on February 27, 2013, 05:45:17 AM
I have only a large weight and a small one but here is what I measured this morning:
Large weight fastest: 30 WPM.
Large weight slowest: 22 WPM

Small weight fastest: 41 WPM
Small weight slowest: 28 ½ WPM.

The Vibroplex is an Original Standard, new three weeks ago; serial # 402499. 
I used Audacity software and measured the interval between the start of the second dit and the start of the sixth dit, divided by four, took the reciprocal, and multiplied by 2.4.
I certainly would not take these numbers to the bank but this is what I got.  It’s my story and I’m sticking to it! 
I’m sure there will be criticism and critique regarding this.  There always is.  Fine.   


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: N5RDE on February 27, 2013, 06:47:13 AM
Regarding my question, here is the reply I received from Vibroplex:

The low end range of the bug with the stock large weight is approx 20 WPM.  The bug was built as a high-speed device and it's stock range is approx 20-40 WPM overall with the large weight.
 
You can add more weight to slow it down some - we sell a device though specifically for that purpose called the Vari-Speed.  Take the weight off, put the Vari-Speed on, then attach the stock weight to the Vari-Speed - low end 13 WPM or so.




Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: PA0BLAH on February 27, 2013, 07:25:32 AM
 
I used Audacity software and measured the interval between the start of the second dit and the start of the sixth dit, divided by four, took the reciprocal, and multiplied by 2.4.
I certainly would not take these numbers to the bank but this is what I got.  It’s my story and I’m sticking to it!  
I’m sure there will be criticism and critique regarding this.  There always is.  Fine.  


Sure there is criticism, Here it is:

Perfect job done.

Bob


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: PA0BLAH on February 27, 2013, 07:36:05 AM
Regarding my question, here is the reply I received from Vibroplex:

The low end range of the bug with the stock large weight is approx 20 WPM.  The bug was built as a high-speed device and it's stock range is approx 20-40 WPM overall with the large weight.
 
You can add more weight to slow it down some - we sell a device though specifically for that purpose called the Vari-Speed.  Take the weight off, put the Vari-Speed on, then attach the stock weight to the Vari-Speed - low end 13 WPM or so.




O yes.

Salesman talk. Kind of male cow manure like they are used to produce in order to transfer funds from  your pocket to their pocket.

Usually successful.

I watched a bug design with separate springs for dots and dashes and the device  is accompanied with a spring force measurement device in order to equalize the forces as good as possible.

Amazing.

Just use one spring when you think the forces has to be equal.

LESS then one and a half is the speed range, just as measured accurately by W0WCA.

Bob
as always instantaneously at your service


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: AC4RD on February 27, 2013, 09:22:35 AM
as function of the time has the position s(t)=sin (wt) with w =2.pi.f and f the (dit)frequency.
the speed is the first derivative so v(t)=w.cos(wt)
the acceleration is the first derivative of the speed hence a(t)=-w.w.sin(wt)
s(t)=sin wt
s(t)=-c.m.w.w.sin(wt)
Hence c.m.w.w=-1

Bob, don't you need to factor in a correction for atmospheric pressure and the Coriolis effect?



Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: PA0BLAH on February 27, 2013, 10:09:05 AM

Bob, don't you need to factor in a correction for atmospheric pressure and the Coriolis effect?


Hi

May be when the pendulum top is moving in an elliptic trace. You can even find out whether you are in the northern or southern hemisphere, when the back move of the pendulum is the upper of or the lower trace of the elliptical


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: W5LZ on March 03, 2013, 11:21:49 PM
Very roughly, something on the order of 20 - 40 wpm with the standard weight, as already said.  That's a typical range of speeds, the exact range (if there is such a thing) will depend on your adjustment of the bug.  Lots of 'play' in that.
 - Paul


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: AE5I on March 08, 2013, 04:34:39 PM
If you happen to have an oscilloscope at your station that's a good way to check the speed/timing as well.

Also, I don't know if this is still an issue or not, but over the decades, Vibroplex would go through various "lots" of mainspring stock and the thickness/stiffness would vary.  Sometimes quite a bit.  If you have, say, a 1967 bug and a 1950 and a 2005, the same weight on all three could result in an entirely different range of speeds on each of the three.  So the best thing to do is to have plenty of all three weights!  :-)

73

Tom AE5I


 
I used Audacity software and measured the interval between the start of the second dit and the start of the sixth dit, divided by four, took the reciprocal, and multiplied by 2.4.
I certainly would not take these numbers to the bank but this is what I got.  It’s my story and I’m sticking to it!  
I’m sure there will be criticism and critique regarding this.  There always is.  Fine.  


Sure there is criticism, Here it is:

Perfect job done.

Bob


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: N5RDE on March 09, 2013, 08:55:16 AM
For those who may want heavier weights than those sold by Vibroplex, 2B RADIO PARTS, 2bradioparts.com ,
sells six sizes of aftermarket weights:

1.2, 1.6, 1.8 and 2 oz. standard width weights.

1.7 and 1.9 oz. "wide" weights.


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: PA0BLAH on March 09, 2013, 09:23:59 AM
If you happen to have an oscilloscope at your station that's a good way to check the speed/timing as well.

Also, I don't know if this is still an issue or not, but over the decades, Vibroplex would go through various "lots" of mainspring stock and the thickness/stiffness would vary.  Sometimes quite a bit.  If you have, say, a 1967 bug and a 1950 and a 2005, the same weight on all three could result in an entirely different range of speeds on each of the three.  So the best thing to do is to have plenty of all three weights!  :-)

73

Tom AE5I

Good remark Tom.
So sloppy handling of customers to sell a product that is supposed to be stable over time.

The guy that wrote that his bug as approximately 20 to 40 wpm has 50% tolerance build in his approximation because W0WCA measured it to be in a reliable described way to be 20 to 30 0ne and a half range. However when you sent 30 it feels good to be able to say you sent 40. So believe what you make feel you good. The adagium of religions, I suppose so.


But the idea fertilized by advertisements that you buy a real vibroplex and have the same feeling during transmitting as the guys on ships airplanes and railroads 60 years ago is hence a lie.

Advertisement and brain washing is normal these days.




Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: N5RDE on March 09, 2013, 04:41:21 PM
It may be that both W5LZ and W0WCA are correct.  I notice that the dot speed can be varied quite a bit simply by adjusting the tension on the Dot Spring (hairpin).  To achieve the slowest dot rate with the weight as far out on the end of the bar as it will go, the Dot Contact screw must be backed out almost to the point where the Dot Contact doesn't make contact with the contact on the Dot Spring when the pendulum is at rest.

Brian, VE2AGO, mentioned this is his QST article, "Semi Automatic Key Adjustment," posted as a .pdf file on the Vibroplex Site:
http://vibroplex.com/original_bug_adjustments.pdf

W0WCA did not mention whether he varied the Dot Spring tension as well as moving the weight when he made his measurements, but W5LZ may be referring to this when he said: "Very roughly, something on the order of 20 - 40 wpm with the standard weight, as already said.  That's a typical range of speeds, the exact range (if there is such a thing) will depend on your adjustment of the bug.  Lots of 'play' in that."



Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: IK0YGJ on March 18, 2013, 02:32:01 PM
I have only a large weight and a small one but here is what I measured this morning:
Large weight fastest: 30 WPM.
Large weight slowest: 22 WPM

Small weight fastest: 41 WPM
Small weight slowest: 28 ½ WPM.

The Vibroplex is an Original Standard, new three weeks ago; serial # 402499. 
  

I agree with the figures above with an Original Standard. However, different keys react differently to weights. For example, the Blue Racer runs from 23WPM with a big weight up to 43-44 WPM. The lightining (with its square weight) ranges from 20WPM to 40WPM, but the lightning with Chrome base, surprisingly, is somewhat slower (16-17WPM up to 33-35 WPM).
73 Carlo IK0YGJ

 ... not an easy question ...
My everyday key is a paddle, however when I find a slower station (around 15-18 WPM) I go for the straight key. But then, if I listen a bug I cannot resist and plug a bug myself. However, some very rare stations use the sideswiper and ... I go with it.
I would say that my key usage is 70% time paddle, 20% bug. 5% straight, 5% sideswiper.

More or less.
73 Carlo IK0YGJ

*******
Download Zen and the Art Of Radiotelegraphy free in PDF format here:

http://www.qsl.net/ik0ygj/enu/index.html

Now in 4 languages: Italian, English, German, French 


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: KF7ATL on April 07, 2013, 02:11:53 PM
Maybe this isn't really what you are asking, but just in case, here it is: I like my Vibroplex, but my copy speed isn't very fast yet. Even with the weight all the way out, it is still too fast for me (I get myself in trouble sending faster than I can receive). I took apart an old telescoping antenna and found a section about 6 inches long that has the right I.D. to slide snugly over the end of the pendulum arm. I was then able to move the weight out past the dampener to slow down the bug. I am able to go down to about 10 wpm using this device. When my speed increases (my current speed is about 14 wpm, but my goal is to reach at least 20) I can remove the extension and go back to normal operation.


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: K6DZ on November 02, 2013, 08:05:10 PM
I would like to add that other brands of bugs have other speed ranges. For instance the modern ViZ Key bugs slowest speed is less than on a Vibroplex. This also true of a Hi-Mound 100. I have an Lafayette (rebranded Hi-mound) which can be slowed to 16 or so with the stock weight. Substituting a square Vibroplex weight onto the arm (if possible, I don't know) it would most likely run even slower.


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: K7JBQ on November 02, 2013, 08:24:53 PM
I've had a Varispeed for my Champion on order from Vibroplex for over two years. Scott has about given up being able to source them. So I stumbled across something dirt cheap and simple:

Binder clips, as sold at Staples and other such places. Even cheaper when liberated from the XYL.

A medium binder clip attached to the shaft cuts the speed down from about 20wpm to 15. I haven't tried it, but I'll bet the large size would get in under 13.

Takes five seconds to switch from 20wpm to 15 this way. If somebody wants to go slower than that, I have the Czech Army Key at the ready as well.

73,
Bill


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: K7KBN on November 03, 2013, 09:43:13 AM
Our little group of guys (and a couple of gals) licensed in the late 1950s/early 1960s used clothespins: cheap, easily obtainable and effective.


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: LUCYAJONES on October 10, 2017, 10:03:13 PM
The Vibroplex Original currently ships with the No. 401 (one ounce) weight.  Does anyone know
the approximate speed ranges of the key with, respectively,

The No. 401 (large) weight?

The No. 402 (4/5 ounce - medium) weight?

The No. 403 (2/5 ounce - small) weight?
:'( :'(Possibly when the pendulum top is moving in an elliptic follow. You can even see if you are in the northern or southern half of the globe when the back move of the pendulum is the upper of or the lower hint of the curved


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: AA4OO on October 16, 2017, 02:21:33 PM
The Vibroplex Original currently ships with the No. 401 (one ounce) weight.  Does anyone know
the approximate speed ranges of the key with, respectively,

The No. 401 (large) weight?

The No. 402 (4/5 ounce - medium) weight?

The No. 403 (2/5 ounce - small) weight?

My Original Standard Bug (circa 70s) slowest DIT speed with the stock, large weight is 24 wpm.

I purchased an aftermarket ferrous 2 ounce weight and that gets it down to about 19 wpm.
With a Varispeed attachment it will go down to 13 wpm.

The aftermarket ferrous weight allows small magnets to be added which will let it go as low as you're willing to stack the magnets, but the extra mass (like the Vari-Speed) makes it feel very weird. So ~20 wpm is about as low as I like to operate it.  I switch to a straight key below that speed.


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: K3STX on October 17, 2017, 05:57:20 AM
It also depends on the thickness of the mainspring! Old Champions (that were for the novice group) used a thinner mainspring (0.012") whereas Originals and Lightning bugs were thinner (0.014-0.016").

paul


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: N9AOP on October 17, 2017, 01:11:01 PM
I remember the old guys wrapping thick solder around the weight to slow it down.  Is the Coriolis effect the reason that the swing is different depending whether you are in northern or southern hemisphere?
Art


Title: RE: Vibroplex: Weights and Speed
Post by: HB9FXW on October 24, 2017, 02:23:56 AM
I put a telescopic antenna from an old fm receiver as an extension for my bug and wrapped some solder at the end of it. I can now quickly adjust my bug for speeds between 15 and way-too-fast-30-something wpm but I usually keep it at about 19 wpm.