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eHam Forums => Antenna Restrictions => Topic started by: WX2S on March 02, 2013, 05:29:41 PM



Title: Remote operation option?
Post by: WX2S on March 02, 2013, 05:29:41 PM
I'd wondered, idly, if one could make a business offering remote operations for people who wanted a dream rig but lived under the domination of a HOA.

My best ideas are always taken, it seems. (http://www.remotehamradio.com/)

- WX2S


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: N4UM on March 02, 2013, 06:13:41 PM
Only time will tell if it was a bright idea and whether such a business venture will make enough money to be worth while. There are numerous posts on this topic in other forums here on e-ham.net.  I don't personally find the idea of paying someone else to use their "super station" appealing but many others might feel differently.

I live in an HOA and am able to operate using stealth antennas on my "property" - such as it is.  I had never really considered remote operation but became interested in exploring its possibilities when my son, who is a ham living in mid-town Manhattan, complained about the electrical noise levels in the city and the difficulty he was having hearing signals from his well-located antenna on the 15th floor terrace of his apartment building.  I set up a modest remotely operated station here at home in my geriatric ghetto using my stealth antennas just to see how it might work.  It was an exercise in irony.  It worked too well!  My son was often on my HOA-based station from New York when I wished to operate.  The solution was to set up a remote station at my daughter's house about 70 miles south of my present location in Florida and get my home station back.

The remote station uses a TS-480HX, an LDG AT200ProII autotuner and a 90 foot inverted vee with loading coils near the ends for 80M.  It's up 35 feet and fed with ladderline thru a 4: balun. It operates on all bands 80 thru 6 meters. It costs me about 50 or 60 dollars a year for remote internet access via the Logmein service.   My son's happy and I am too now  that have my stealth antennas back!

I'm certainly not much of a technician and am pretty dense when it comes to computers.  The point is... if I can set up a remote station, anyone can.   Find a friend or relative who will permit you to put a remote station on their property and tell your HOA to take a hike.  Try to find someone fairly close by so that you don't have to drive a big distance to do work on the station.  It ain't rocket science.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: W0MT on March 03, 2013, 09:57:13 AM
I think charging a Ham for the use of a remote operation would be no different than charging for the use of a repeater. I am sure that a bunch of Hams could all work together to set up a remote operation much like some clubs set up a repeater but not as a business.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: WA8JNM on March 03, 2013, 12:56:05 PM
It's already being done, but I don't have the url.  There is a long conversation somewhere on eHam discussing it.  As I recall, when you sign up, they send you a K3 remote unit to use.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: WD4ELG on March 03, 2013, 06:50:22 PM
www.lamonica.com  Keith Lamonica W7DXX


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: ONAIR on March 03, 2013, 08:17:00 PM
How about remote 2 Meter/440 operation?


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: WD4ELG on March 04, 2013, 06:16:24 PM
www.remotehams.com has a few stations (although these are free, I believe).

What would the purpose of 2m/440 remote be?  Weak signal DX?  or EME?  That would be a different situation if the remote station is a different grid than the operator, for award purposes.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: K7KB on March 08, 2013, 11:35:28 AM
I'd wondered, idly, if one could make a business offering remote operations for people who wanted a dream rig but lived under the domination of a HOA.

My best ideas are always taken, it seems. (http://www.remotehamradio.com/)

- WX2S


I think I've already seen at least one business setup for remote operation but I'm not sure how well it's doing yet. Although this seems like a great idea, I have to wonder how ethical it would be in counting for DXCC or other awards. For example, lets say the remote station was in Florida and you lived in the Northern latitudes of Washington State like I do. From Florida you can work Africa, Europe, and the Middle East almost like they were next door all day long. Not so for us, especially over the pole. Should a contact made say with a YI (Iraq) station count for DXCC if the remote operation was about 2700 miles closer to the DX? My feeling is no, it shouldn't count.

However, if a group of hams or a person wanted to set something up locally and they were personally involved in the setup and operation of the remote station, I think I would be a bit more comfortable with that scenario. As you mentioned, it's getting more and more difficult to get away from HOA restrictions, especially for those who have limited choices on where they can live.

John K7KB


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: N7BMW on March 12, 2013, 03:02:47 PM
Pretty sure that operating a remote station for profit is a direct violation of the regs.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: ONAIR on March 13, 2013, 09:27:58 PM
www.remotehams.com has a few stations (although these are free, I believe).

What would the purpose of 2m/440 remote be?  Weak signal DX?  or EME?  That would be a different situation if the remote station is a different grid than the operator, for award purposes.
   Well it could help if one's QTH was at the bottom of a valley, or surrounded by large hills and/or mountains.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: AC7DX on March 31, 2013, 08:39:06 PM
I'd wondered, idly, if one could make a business offering remote operations for people who wanted a dream rig but lived under the domination of a HOA.

My best ideas are always taken, it seems. (http://www.remotehamradio.com/)

- WX2S

Although my remote is private, there are others who are not...try
Remote hams.com is already out there and FREE
www.remotehams.com/


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: N0IU on April 19, 2013, 03:54:05 AM
How about remote 2 Meter/440 operation?
Its called EchoLink!


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: KH6DC on May 27, 2013, 01:32:28 PM
I'm a proud member of W7DXX's remote and use it from time to time.  There is an annual membership fee to join which covers system maintenance, upgrades and utilities.

www.w7dxx.com


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: KD8TUT on May 30, 2013, 05:09:50 AM
I'm a proud member of W7DXX's remote and use it from time to time.  There is an annual membership fee to join which covers system maintenance, upgrades and utilities.

www.w7dxx.com

I use remotehams.com as well. Have transmit capabilities on a couple of radios in my state (MI). One is a Yaesu FTDX 5000D, with 1000 watts, on a Carolina Windom at 90 feet. Very popular radio with Michiganders. I can rarely use it because of popularity.

The other is an ICOM 756 PRO III with significantly less power and antenna. But I use this one a lot.

Made a donation to the remote hams *site* because there are significant amounts of time/money spent running it. And if the site is still relevant when I get an HF station up (A year maybe), I've decided to put a rig together and open it for new hams.

Systems like this seem to me to be a great way to get new guys on the air, even before they have equipment. Gotta hook them before they get licensed, then re-hook them after they get licensed.

The new tech is *marvelous*.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: K5LXP on May 30, 2013, 06:19:11 AM
Pretty sure that operating a remote station for profit is a direct violation of the regs.

Can you cite which "regs"?  All I see is that someone is essentially renting station facilities.


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: W0MT on May 30, 2013, 08:36:33 AM
Try 97.3(a)(4)

(4) Amateur service.
A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.

Emphasis added.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: W0MT on May 30, 2013, 11:32:51 AM
I though I would expand a little on the regulation concerning pecuniary interest. Back in the “good old days” Hams would often provide phone patches for US military members serving overseas. The military service member would go to the base Ham radio station and a CQ would be sent to Ham stations in the US. Often the CQ would include a geographical area of the US. If a contact was made and if the US Ham station had the necessary equipment for a phone patch, a phone call would be placed for the service member. Then a conversation could be initiated between the service member and whoever was contacted via the phone. If the US Ham didn’t have the ability for a phone patch, they would either place a call and relay a message or they would sign into one of the US based traffic nets and relay the message. The reason for all of this was the very high cost of international phone calls.

It was and still is absolutely prohibited for the Ham providing this service to charge even a penny. The Ham could not charge for electricity, equipment acquisition, maintenance, or anything else. The reason was this reg or its predecessor. In other words, a Ham may not have a pecuniary interest in the activities of Ham radio.

I see no difference in Hams charging for message handling and charging for the use of their equipment. In either case, it is a pecuniary interest which is prohibited.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: K5LXP on May 31, 2013, 12:51:30 PM
Try 97.3(a)(4)

(4) Amateur service.
A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.
Emphasis added.

In the current context, no funds are changing hands as a direct result of the intercommunication (contacts/traffic) that results from the rented facilities.  I don't see it as any different than when clubs rent commercial repeater sites and members pay dues to offset that.


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: W0MT on May 31, 2013, 01:23:58 PM
Try 97.3(a)(4)

(4) Amateur service.
A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.
Emphasis added.

In the current context, no funds are changing hands as a direct result of the intercommunication (contacts/traffic) that results from the rented facilities.  I don't see it as any different than when clubs rent commercial repeater sites and members pay dues to offset that.


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
If a Ham receives ANY money for Ham radio related activities then the Ham has a pecuniary interest. It makes absolutely no difference if the money is for renting out the equipment, for passing messages, or charging for tours of the shack.

Clubs are a little different. As long as the individual Hams don't personally get the money, it is probably alright. In any case, I don't think the FCC is going to go after a club but they might for an individual Ham.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: AC7DX on June 20, 2013, 02:25:43 PM
I'd wondered, idly, if one could make a business offering remote operations for people who wanted a dream rig but lived under the domination of a HOA.

My best ideas are always taken, it seems. (http://www.remotehamradio.com/)

- WX2S


I think I've already seen at least one business setup for remote operation but I'm not sure how well it's doing yet. Although this seems like a great idea, I have to wonder how ethical it would be in counting for DXCC or other awards. For example, lets say the remote station was in Florida and you lived in the Northern latitudes of Washington State like I do. From Florida you can work Africa, Europe, and the Middle East almost like they were next door all day long. Not so for us, especially over the pole. Should a contact made say with a YI (Iraq) station count for DXCC if the remote operation was about 2700 miles closer to the DX? My feeling is no, it shouldn't count.

However, if a group of hams or a person wanted to set something up locally and they were personally involved in the setup and operation of the remote station, I think I would be a bit more comfortable with that scenario. As you mentioned, it's getting more and more difficult to get away from HOA restrictions, especially for those who have limited choices on where they can live.

John K7KB

If you were on vacation and worked them via mobile, you would want it to count and it does.
As long as your in the USA 1-0..it should and does count..No difference between mobile and remote
73


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: WB6BYU on June 26, 2013, 11:52:57 AM
Quote from: AC7DX

If you were on vacation and worked them via mobile, you would want it to count and it does.
As long as your in the USA 1-0..it should and does count..No difference between mobile and remote



My understanding is that remote stations are NOT counted for DXCC and similar awards, though
the rules might have changed in that regard.




Quote from: W0MT

If a Ham receives ANY money for Ham radio related activities then the Ham has a pecuniary interest.



If that were the case it would be illegal for hams to be employed at HRO or Ten-Tec.

The rules have changed over the years.  If you read the wording of the actual regulations
in Part 97, they prohibit the operation of a ham radio station on behalf of your employer
(with certain exceptions.)  The prohibited activity is operating the station for profit,
not renting the use of the station.  In this case, the operator is not the person getting
paid. 

It's the same situation as if I wanted to rent out my old rig to a new ham for $5/month -
neither of use is getting paid to operate or pass messages.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: KH6DC on June 26, 2013, 01:25:02 PM
Here's my interpretation of the DXCC rule but correct me if I'm wrong:

For example:

If a remote station with radio, amp and antenna is in North Korea and the operator is operating from California via remote, than this station does not qualify for DXCC credit.

However if there is a physical operator in North Korea and a station is making contact with North Korea from Africa via a remote station in Japan, the operator can get DXCC credit.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: W0MT on June 26, 2013, 01:34:30 PM
Quote from: W0MT

If a Ham receives ANY money for Ham radio related activities then the Ham has a pecuniary interest.



If that were the case it would be illegal for hams to be employed at HRO or Ten-Tec.

The rules have changed over the years.  If you read the wording of the actual regulations
in Part 97, they prohibit the operation of a ham radio station on behalf of your employer
(with certain exceptions.)  The prohibited activity is operating the station for profit,
not renting the use of the station.  In this case, the operator is not the person getting
paid. 

It's the same situation as if I wanted to rent out my old rig to a new ham for $5/month -
neither of use is getting paid to operate or pass messages.

There is no regulatory requirement to hold a Ham license to work in HRO or Ten-Tek. The fact that a private company only hires or wants to hire Hams to work there does not mean it is an Amateur Service.      

Rules changed or not, 97.3(a)(4) reads as follows:

"Amateur service. A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest."

Do you know what a pecuniary interest is? It means receiving money or something of value for some action or inaction. It makes no difference if the money or something of value is less in value then the cost of the action or inaction.

It would be a close call if you rented your old rig to another Ham. The reason is a non-Ham could do the same thing–for example the surviving non-Ham spouse of a Ham operator could rent the equipment to someone else.

Setting up and operating a remotely controlled Ham station is a different matter. I suspect that anyone who does this has to be a licensed Ham. If that is the case, this makes it an Amateur service as defined by 97.3(a)(4). And if a Ham does set up a remotely controlled Ham station and then rents it to other Hams, that is a pecuniary interest and it is prohibited by 97.3(a)(4).


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: WB6BYU on June 26, 2013, 04:09:52 PM
While the basis and purpose clause gives an overview of the service, that clause alone
doesn't make anything legal or illegal.  The detailed rules spell out exactly what is permitted
and what isn't.  And the current wording of those rules do not in any way prohibit the
renting of equipment to other hams.

Your are right that there is no requirement that only hams work at HRO or Ten-Tec.
Similarly there is no such requirement to own ham equipment, or to set up a remote
station.  The only one who has to have a license is the operator, because he is the
one actually transmitting on the ham bands.

So it is the operator doing the communication who can not have a pecuniary
interest in the communications, not the person owning the station.


Title: RE: Remote operation option?
Post by: K0IZ on June 27, 2013, 05:03:25 AM
Re DXCC, if operator is in same DXCC entity as the transmitter, that counts.  Otherwise no.