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eHam Forums => Misc => Topic started by: K7RNO on March 05, 2013, 09:52:31 AM



Title: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: K7RNO on March 05, 2013, 09:52:31 AM
Strictly directed at trained homeopaths who know about RF impact on remedies.

Please, no jokes, no guessing, no unqualified comments—this is serious stuff.

My questions are: are homeopathic remedies at risk of rendered ineffective when subjected to VHF/UHF radiation from a 5W HT inside the house?
What are safe distances to keep the remedies away from such radiation's harm (handheld antenna)?

I am the ham, my wife is the concerned homeopath.


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: N3DF on March 05, 2013, 10:10:07 AM
In my opinion, non-ionizing radiation has no effect upon the efficacy of homeopathic remedies. 


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: KU7PDX on March 05, 2013, 01:05:38 PM
I completely agree with N3DF. I knew of a store specializing in homeopathic remedies that was less than 0.25 miles from a 1 KW AM broadcast station and had no concerns about the effectiveness of their products.


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: KB4QAA on March 05, 2013, 08:33:28 PM
In all seriousness, Homeopathy is balderdash, no healing power to it.  So, you don't have to worry about radios affecting their potions.



Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: AC4RD on March 06, 2013, 04:13:18 AM
Nothing about homeopathic "medicines" can possibly be affected by RF.  They also can't be affected by sunlight, magnetic fields, phases of the moon, or science, evidence-based medicine, and common sense.


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: AG6WT on March 06, 2013, 07:35:40 AM
Homeopathic medicines are primarily organic chemicals and minerals derived from natural sources like plants. Your brain is composed of organic chemicals and minerals derived from the plants and meat you consume.

The RF from an HT is neither the frequency nor power level necessary to damage or alter the molecules in your head or the homeopathic medicines. If it were, you would see RF burns or abnormally high cancer rates among populations that regularly use HT's (e.g. hams, police, firefighters, railroad workers, etc.).

Honestly, the only damage an HT can cause is to burn a hole in your wallet  ;)


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: K8AXW on March 06, 2013, 08:20:35 AM
Quote
Honestly, the only damage an HT can cause is to burn a hole in your wallet

Or major damage to your hobby, peace and tranquility by someone who thinks your radio is creating a health problem for them.

This can be your wife or a neighbor who thinks your HT or antenna is the root cause of their ills.

Good luck~



Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: K0JEG on March 06, 2013, 04:51:35 PM
This is what he's up against (2nd hit on Google search for "homeopathy and radio frequency radiation"):

http://www.naturalhealingpro.com/radiation-x.html

From the advertisement:

Cell Towers
•     Cell Towers that are SENDING information are the harmful ones.
•     Cell Towers that are RECEIVING information are harmless.
•     If you have a cell tower near your residence or your office, find out if it is sending or receiving microwaves. 


$42.00 seems reasonable for peace of mind.


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: K8AXW on March 06, 2013, 05:40:02 PM
Come on guys..... this thread is sliding into the area BJM doesn't want it to go. 

BJM:  It's doubtful if you're going to convince someone that RF is harmless if they're convinced that it is.  You're simply going to have to work around it.


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: AC4RD on March 07, 2013, 03:40:58 AM

Cell Towers
•     Cell Towers that are SENDING information are the harmful ones.
•     Cell Towers that are RECEIVING information are harmless.
•     If you have a cell tower near your residence or your office, find out if it is sending or receiving microwaves. 


$42.00 seems reasonable for peace of mind.

Gosh, all this time I thought cell towers did both.  I had no idea some were send-only and others were receive-only.  Maybe I better send them $84 so I can test for BOTH?    ;)     (The old-time snake-oil salesman is still here, only instead of a horse and wagon, he has a website.)  :-)

I know a man who was a "natural healing and alternative medicine practitioner"; he wrote a couple of books on "curing cancer the natural way," without doctors and hospitals.  Then he got lymphoma, and announced he would cure himself by going to Mexico to eat peaches, and injecting himself with some sort of chemical you can only get from Canada.   He died not long after that.  But his website is still offering the books for sale.  :-/


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: KE5JPP on March 07, 2013, 05:06:38 AM
Strictly directed at trained homeopaths who know about RF impact on remedies.

Please, no jokes, no guessing, no unqualified comments—this is serious stuff.

My questions are: are homeopathic remedies at risk of rendered ineffective when subjected to VHF/UHF radiation from a 5W HT inside the house?
What are safe distances to keep the remedies away from such radiation's harm (handheld antenna)?

I am the ham, my wife is the concerned homeopath.

trained homeopaths == scam artists


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: W1JKA on March 07, 2013, 06:37:43 AM
Re: KE5JPP  Rely #10

    I think the Chinese would take issue with your statement ;)


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: K8AXW on March 07, 2013, 08:39:24 AM
JKA:  Sure.... when you have poor medical facilities, what do you have left? 

Our pioneers had to live this way and their life expectancy was approximately 30 years!


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: AC4RD on March 07, 2013, 09:22:25 AM

http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/a-kind-of-magic/


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: N9KX on March 07, 2013, 10:40:42 AM
In all seriousness, Homeopathy is balderdash, no healing power to it.  So, you don't have to worry about radios affecting their potions.

LOL.  marketers get rich on balderdash -- and pharmaceutical companies just package theirs with science. the pharmaceutical industry has its roots in natural remedies, for example aspirin was derived from willow bark.   While there is a lot of quackery out there, it must be remembered that we are mammals and our original medicines were vetted by millions of years of evolution -- scientific trial and error. 

Unfortunately some of our modern medicines are only vetted by what effect they have on a discrete medical problem and thus significant negative side-effects later come to light -- to the dismay of those patients who had consumed them.

disclaimer: i am not a homeopath  :)


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: W4OP on March 07, 2013, 10:46:39 AM
My biggest  concern would be to make sure the homeopathy was not interfering with my RF.

Dale W4OP


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: K7RNO on March 07, 2013, 10:25:30 PM
So, I just came back to this thread after posting the question, and I was surprised to see it stretching over two pages.

Well, my wife and I had several good laughs, the best one from Dale W4OP's post.

Now, as one anecdote on the impact of electromagnetic energy, here is what my wife experienced: she left a container of apis (12c) in her shopping bag, leaning against the computer tower for approximately one hour. When she needed it later to remedy a bee sting, it didn't work. She then got to a second container of apis that was kept in her regular shelf, and that took care of the issue.

Looks like there is no homeopath in the house yet. But thank you for trying to keep us entertained.


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: AC4RD on March 08, 2013, 04:12:44 AM
she left a container of apis (12c) in her shopping bag, leaning against the computer tower for approximately one hour. When she needed it later to remedy a bee sting, it didn't work. She then got to a second container of apis that was kept in her regular shelf, and that took care of the issue.

Well, that's certainly unassailable scientific evidence, no doubt about it.  Well designed double-blind randomized trials (none of which have *ever* shown any benefit of homeopathic tinctures over placebo) don't hold a candle to this sort of well-documented anecdotal evidence.


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: W1JKA on March 08, 2013, 04:22:58 AM
Re: KG7BJM  Reply #16

Non Pectium based computers will have this negative effect on abutting apis,but it should be ok with an Apple.


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: N9KX on March 08, 2013, 06:23:18 AM
so, thanks to google i now know that confusing homeopathic remedies with herbal remedies is a huge mistake. oops  ;D

Homeopathy is completely unproven, whereas pharmacology has its roots (pardon the pun) in herbal medicine (the classic example being aspirin coming from willow bark). 


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: AG6WT on March 08, 2013, 07:21:38 AM
Arno KG7BJM,

In the interest of keeping the peace, perhaps you can just make or buy a Faraday Cage for her to safely store her "medicines". There are some demonstrations of how a Faraday Cage blocks rfi on youtube that you can show her:

http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/Experiment:_The_Faraday_Cage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPt5jjYoXvE

Gud Luck,
Ray KJ6AMF


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: K8AXW on March 08, 2013, 07:57:44 AM
BJM:  That's great!  And I was trying to keep everyone nice while at the same time my brain was screaming with all kinds of nefarious comments!  The later caused two sleepless nights!


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: N6AJR on March 08, 2013, 08:46:14 AM
ask Wayne Green... :)


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: K7RNO on March 08, 2013, 09:13:50 AM
she left a container of apis (12c) in her shopping bag, leaning against the computer tower for approximately one hour. When she needed it later to remedy a bee sting, it didn't work. She then got to a second container of apis that was kept in her regular shelf, and that took care of the issue.

Well, that's certainly unassailable scientific evidence, no doubt about it.  Well designed double-blind randomized trials (none of which have *ever* shown any benefit of homeopathic tinctures over placebo) don't hold a candle to this sort of well-documented anecdotal evidence.

You appear to know more than I, if you have seen those referenced "well-designed double-blind randomized trials". Please provide a source. I have an open mind and am always eager to learn more.

Oh, and I did say that our account was anecdotal. I do know what that means in a scientific context. So what was your point again, then?


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: K7RNO on March 08, 2013, 09:45:07 AM
Re: KG7BJM  Reply #16

Non Pectium based computers will have this negative effect on abutting apis,but it should be ok with an Apple.

 ;D

In my first draft of my reply #16, I did utter a doubt whether a mac might have prevented the damage. I didn't think of Apples, though. Nor of oranges.

Oh, and then I had a lot more in that first draft. You know, the kind of stuff one says before one calms down and returns to civility  ;)



Arno KG7BJM,

In the interest of keeping the peace, perhaps you can just make or buy a Faraday Cage for her to safely store her "medicines".

You're right on. And I sense your attempt of humor. It is all good. Now, let me introduce a new concept. Let's assume you have an irreplaceable treasure at home, say, a bottle of Chivas Royal Salute (the last one existing on earth), or a QSL card from an entity from the Messier 81 galaxy, and you have reason to believe they might spoil or rot in your hot and humid climate, would you not want to find a way to keep them safe?



Quote from:  link=topic=88511.msg658702#msg658702 date=1362758264
BJM:  That's great!  And I was trying to keep everyone nice while at the same time my brain was screaming with all kinds of nefarious comments!  The later caused two sleepless nights!

Thank you for your good intentions, but no worries, knock yourself out. I am no longer expecting any serious contributions here.





Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: AC4RD on March 08, 2013, 09:48:16 AM
if you have seen those referenced "well-designed double-blind randomized trials". Please provide a source. I have an open mind and am always eager to learn more.
...I do know what that means in a scientific context. So what was your point again, then?

My point is that homeopathy is pseudoscience.  There is NO credible scientific evidence for it, though the assorted homeopath salesmen keep pretending otherwise.  And for the record, I'm not a doctor, but I HAVE worked in the data end of medical research for 24 years and know the difference between evidence-based medicine and "smoke and moonbeams."

A systematic review of systematic reviews of homeopathy
E. Ernst*
British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology
Volume 54, Issue 6, pages 577–582, December 2002

Impact of Study Quality on Outcome in Placebo-Controlled Trials of Homeopathy
Klaus Linde1, , Michael Scholz2, Gilbert Ramirez3, Nicola Clausius1, Dieter Melchart1, Wayne B. Jonas4
Journal of Clinical Epidemiology
Volume 52, Issue 7, July 1999, Pages 631–636

A Double-blind, Controlled Clinical Trial of Homeopathy and an Analysis of Lunar Phases and Postoperative Outcome
Josef Smolle, MD; Gerhard Prause, MD; Helmut Kerl, MD
Arch Dermatol. 1998;134(11):1368-1370.

Homeopathic Arnica 30x Is Ineffective for Muscle Soreness After Long-Distance Running: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Trial
Vickers, Andrew J. M.A.*†; Fisher, Peter M.D.‡; Smith, Claire Ph.D.*; Wyllie, Sheena E. B.Sc.‡; Rees, Rebecca M.Sc.*†
Clinical Journal of Pain:
September 1998 - Volume 14 - Issue 3 - pp 227-231


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: AC4RD on March 08, 2013, 09:53:05 AM
KG7BJM, I'm sorry, I've gone on too long about this.  If you'd like to email me off this public area I can tell you exactly WHY this kind of snake oil irks me so much.  But I'll stop making a fuss about it in this forum.   ac4rd  ( myfirstname . lastname at duke dot edu if you want to discuss it.)


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: K7RNO on March 08, 2013, 10:24:46 AM
ac4rd, thank you for the bibliography. I will look into it and also forward that to my wife and maybe have her contact you off forum to start a meaningful exchange on this. I am too uneducated in this matter. Hey, maybe it really is all just a placebo effect. But boy, it works for me.


I completely agree with N3DF [who said non-ionizing radiation would have no effect here]. I knew of a store specializing in homeopathic remedies that was less than 0.25 miles from a 1 KW AM broadcast station and had no concerns about the effectiveness of their products.

Thank you for this bit of support. I would think a store owner full of such merchandize would be concerned if there were an impact of that station's radiation. What I don't know is how such radiation (1 kW AM from <400 meters) compares to VHF/UHF radiation of 5 W from a distance of 9 m. Anybody?


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: WB2WIK on March 08, 2013, 02:05:10 PM
A local homeopathic remedies shop was established right next to a 400' tall broadcast tower transmitting with 100kW output in the shortwave bands.

Everyone wondered if the transmitter would have an effect on the various remedies, until one day it was verified it had a huge detrimental effect.  That was when a tornado came along and made the tower fall over on the shop, destroying most of the building and all the inventory.

That may be anecdotal, but I think it's strong evidence.


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: G3RZP on March 08, 2013, 02:52:00 PM
More seriously, to what extent do homeopathic remedies work because the users believe they will work? Psychosomatic effects?

If I believe that working a genuine KP1 will make me feel better, by heck I'll try. Because, it being my last country for #1 Honor Roll, I damn well WILL feel better!


Title: RE: Any homeopaths in the house?
Post by: K7RNO on March 08, 2013, 03:48:05 PM
More seriously, to what extent do homeopathic remedies work because the users believe they will work? Psychosomatic effects?

If you mean placebo effects, don't they apply to each and every medicine?

If you are really serious about finding out more, I am the wrong person to ask and you won't believe me anyway. I suggest finding some literature on it, and one to start with would be NASA scientist Amy Lansky's "Impossible Cure". Really a good read.