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eHam Forums => Computers And Software => Topic started by: W2RWJ on April 08, 2013, 05:50:57 PM



Title: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W2RWJ on April 08, 2013, 05:50:57 PM
With the end of support for Windows XP on the horizon, I started building replacements for the hodge-podge of XP computers at the N2MO station.

The "new" operating position computers are HP DC7900  CMT (Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3.0GHz, 4GB RAM, 80GB HD).  OS is volume licensed Windows 7 Professional 64-bit.

Monitors are HP2208W and HP 1506L

Here's the question:  Anyone have recommendation on cheap (less then $40.00 each) video cards that will support the above dual monitors configuration?  Cost is a major factor in this decision

73 Martin Flynn
W2RWJ





Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KD8GEH on April 09, 2013, 12:18:21 PM
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3853853&CatId=28

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=149617&CatId=3585

Check the exsising dual graphic and make sure theres not a win 7 driver avaiable for the exsisting on board chip set.

73, DE  Dave KD8GEH


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K1CJS on April 10, 2013, 04:31:07 AM
Just an observation--with all due respect.  With the title of this thread, it was probably expected that it contained something about WinXP, not a request for a low price video card solution for a newer OS/computer combination.  


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KF7CG on April 10, 2013, 10:09:12 AM
Have you checked the specs for the OEM cards now in the computers. Many of the Win 7 capable computers have video cards/cipsets the support dual monitors already. One monitor per output connection. That is the "VGA" connection and the HDMI or the other HD video out can drive separate monitors.

KF7CG


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W2RWJ on April 10, 2013, 05:16:25 PM
Have you checked the specs for the OEM cards now in the computers. Many of the Win 7 capable computers have video cards/chipsets the support dual monitors already. One monitor per output connection. That is the "VGA" connection and the HDMI or the other HD video out can drive separate monitors.

I tried using an HP  481408-004 (displayport to VGA) adapter, would not work. I guess I can't expect too much from a pile of "free" computers.

73 Martin Flynn
W2RWJ


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KD8GEH on April 11, 2013, 07:54:38 AM
Did you update the display driver for win 7?  Did you check the bios and make sure the internal deiplay ports enabled?

73, Dave


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W2RWJ on April 22, 2013, 04:08:54 AM
Received the answer from HP:  The smaller monitor does not have suitable drivers for Windows 7.   Swapping to a pair of HPL2208W worked fine.

In case anyone is curious, this is slated to be the standard image for N2MO:

*  Open Office - Open Office is a free replacement for Microsoft Office.  Very solid and can read or write to any existing Microsoft file format.
*  Thunderbird E-mail Client
*  Firefox  web browser with adblock (no more blinking ads on QRZ)
*  N3FJP logging software, Network Version
*  N3FJP WeatherWarn:  http://www.wxspots.com/wxwarn.htm
*  Fundraiser Select Software - multi-user membership and donor tracking software: http://www.fundraisersoftware.com/products/for-medium-or-growing-nonprofits/fundraiser-select
*  CutePDF:  Allows creation of PDF files from any windows application: http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KG4RUL on April 22, 2013, 05:28:10 AM
Just an observation--with all due respect.  With the title of this thread, it was probably expected that it contained something about WinXP, not a request for a low price video card solution for a newer OS/computer combination.  

I agree with one exception, I don't respect posters who can't CLEARLY state a topic.  They just use up other people's valuable time deciphering what they REALLY meant.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: SWL2002 on April 22, 2013, 05:44:39 AM
Just an observation--with all due respect.  With the title of this thread, it was probably expected that it contained something about WinXP, not a request for a low price video card solution for a newer OS/computer combination.  

I agree with one exception, I don't respect posters who can't CLEARLY state a topic.  They just use up other people's valuable time deciphering what they REALLY meant.

No one is forcing you to come here and answer peoples questions.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KG4RUL on April 22, 2013, 08:05:17 AM
Just an observation--with all due respect.  With the title of this thread, it was probably expected that it contained something about WinXP, not a request for a low price video card solution for a newer OS/computer combination.  

I agree with one exception, I don't respect posters who can't CLEARLY state a topic.  They just use up other people's valuable time deciphering what they REALLY meant.

No one is forcing you to come here and answer peoples questions.

I am not commenting on answering questions.  My comment refers to the need to actually open a message to only find out that the title in no way represents the content of the message.  THAT is a time waster.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KD8TZC on April 24, 2013, 05:00:52 AM
As an IT industry person, I'm not migrating any of my XP computers away from that operating system.  Yes, the end is near for XP, but the software works quite well and is a lot lighter on the hardware than Win 7.  WIth that being said though, it sounds like you have already migrated from XP or have made your mind up to do so.  It does provide some nice eye candy, but lots of overhead.

One of the places I would look for good, inexpensive video cards is New Egg (http://www.newegg.com/Video-Cards-Video-Devices/Category/ID-38).

You didn't say, but what type of port does the memory card need on your computer board?  I know that model has a built in video card, but I believe you stated that you want dual monitors.  I'm not sure the port needed on that board though.  I'm going to take a gander that it is a PCIe 2.0.  The big question that will determine the cost of the card for the most part will be the amount of memory that you desire.  If you are just using business style apps, then you can get away with less memory, and likely spend $30 - $60 for a decent video card.  If you also intend to play high quality graphics (e.g. games, videos, etc) on the machine, then get more memory.  If it were me, I would look for at least 1Gb of memory on the video card and go from there.  Also, will you need a DVI port or will a standard port work (or do you need an HDMI port)?

John


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: NK7Z on April 24, 2013, 07:05:01 AM
As an IT industry person, I'm not migrating any of my XP computers away from that operating system.  Yes, the end is near for XP, but the software works quite well and is a lot lighter on the hardware than Win 7. 
As an ex IT manager, (thankfully retired), I am not migrating from XP unless I HAVE too...  Right now I see no reason to move...  My main OS is Linux, and I only keep XP around for MixW, and N3FJP...  N3FJP could be replaced by CQRLog which runs under Linux, so the only reason for XP is MixW...  I may virtualize a machine up under Linux, use a licensed XP and just do away with the XP machine...  I can just bring back the XP drive if something happens.  For that matter, I could just run N3FJP software as well in the virtual machine...


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KY6M on April 24, 2013, 11:02:35 AM
I missed the memo on Windows 98 expiring, it's still on one of my laptops for Packet/WinLink  ::) I have XP on my other Ham computer and as long as it has a modern virus protection program I think it will do great.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: SWL2002 on April 24, 2013, 03:42:47 PM
Gosh, all the cheap old-fart hams are coming out of the woodwork on this one.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W2RWJ on April 25, 2013, 04:05:20 PM
As an IT industry person, I'm not migrating any of my XP computers away from that operating system.  Yes, the end is near for XP, but the software works quite well and is a lot lighter on the hardware than Win 7.

John,
We are running under W7 downgrade licenses at the moment (MS volume licensing).   The "problem" is that the lack of patches after the end of official support.   Even with Sophos and a decent firewall, the risk of a zero day attack is too high for a network with so many users (41 active in AD with logins)

With only volunteer IT support, I need to make this as stable as possible.

73 Martin Flynn
W2RWJ


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on April 25, 2013, 04:56:16 PM
As an IT industry person, I'm not migrating any of my XP computers away from that operating system.  Yes, the end is near for XP, but the software works quite well and is a lot lighter on the hardware than Win 7.

Delaying the inevitable as XP is 13+ years old now and very dated. As far as easier on hardware this is not true unless you are trying to load 7 on a old XP computer. The silly part is even a modern cheap entry level PC can easily run win7 quickly and DDR3 ram is dirt cheap and modern system use far less power too which with a larger network can add up to thousands of dollars a year in savings energy and cooling bills. In end you are not really saving much if anything at all.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: AB4ZT on April 27, 2013, 04:20:57 PM
I agree with W8JX.  It is time to move on.  XP is dead.  I just upgraded computers including getting rid of XP and it was "good riddance".


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K1CJS on April 28, 2013, 07:15:57 AM
...I just upgraded computers including getting rid of XP and it was "good riddance".

"Good riddance?"  XP was and is one of the most stable windows platforms out there.  I know of companies who are buying new machines that are STILL getting Win XP professional installed on them.  Yes, I agree that its dated and that as it gets older there are less and less software offerings that will run on them, but tell that to the people who still run Win 98 because there are certain programs that will NOT run on the newer systems due to speed and size differences!

Planned obsolescence is all well and good--but would YOU want to be treated that way when you get older?  Yes, it does happen to humans too!


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on April 28, 2013, 07:34:08 AM
...I just upgraded computers including getting rid of XP and it was "good riddance".

"Good riddance?"  XP was and is one of the most stable windows platforms out there.  I know of companies who are buying new machines that are STILL getting Win XP professional installed on them.  Yes, I agree that its dated and that as it gets older there are less and less software offerings that will run on them, but tell that to the people who still run Win 98 because there are certain programs that will NOT run on the newer systems due to speed and size differences!

Planned obsolescence is all well and good--but would YOU want to be treated that way when you get older?  Yes, it does happen to humans too!

It says something for the companies limited IT experience and understanding. Most Stable OS I ever used was 64 bit Vista and 64 bit 7 is about the same. As far as stable old OS'es, Win 2000 was far more stable than XP was and before that NT4. Win9x were the most unstable of the lot. As far as not run on newer system due to speed and size is pure BS. If it does not run it is because the code either poorly written or not properly compiled into proper 32 bit code.

Again this points back to IT's lack of understanding and knowledge of how to adapt and change with times. No way would I by new modern hardware and instal a 13 year old OS on it. Dumb.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W2RWJ on April 28, 2013, 07:46:19 AM
I know of companies who are buying new machines that are STILL getting Win XP professional installed on them. 

This is true - it assumes that that have a Volume license available to them with downgrade rights (Vista and Windows 7 came with this option)  Sale of new machines with OEM versions of XP ended quite a while back.

The only reason we are running windows at all is the clubs selected applications require it.

Martin


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: VA2FSQ on April 28, 2013, 08:11:29 AM
...I just upgraded computers including getting rid of XP and it was "good riddance".

"Good riddance?"  XP was and is one of the most stable windows platforms out there.  I know of companies who are buying new machines that are STILL getting Win XP professional installed on them.  Yes, I agree that its dated and that as it gets older there are less and less software offerings that will run on them, but tell that to the people who still run Win 98 because there are certain programs that will NOT run on the newer systems due to speed and size differences!

Planned obsolescence is all well and good--but would YOU want to be treated that way when you get older?  Yes, it does happen to humans too!

It says something for the companies limited IT experience and understanding. Most Stable OS I ever used was 64 bit Vista and 64 bit 7 is about the same. As far as stable old OS'es, Win 2000 was far more stable than XP was and before that NT4. Win9x were the most unstable of the lot. As far as not run on newer system due to speed and size is pure BS. If it does not run it is because the code either poorly written or not properly compiled into proper 32 bit code.

Again this points back to IT's lack of understanding and knowledge of how to adapt and change with times. No way would I by new modern hardware and instal a 13 year old OS on it. Dumb.

I agree that perhaps in the past, an IT department may have thought vista and win7 not as stable as XP but I doubt anymore.
By far, the reason for still getting XP on companies computers is cost.  The last company I worked for was still on XP and in a few months will beging going to Win7.  Why?  We had 40,000 computers to upgrade.  Along with that, we also had to upgrade copies of Office.  So, 40,000 * $500 gives a cool 20 million and another 20 million or so in personnel costs. Not small change when the board wants costs in IT reduced.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on April 28, 2013, 08:50:16 AM

I agree that perhaps in the past, an IT department may have thought vista and win7 not as stable as XP but I doubt anymore.
By far, the reason for still getting XP on companies computers is cost.  The last company I worked for was still on XP and in a few months will beging going to Win7.  Why?  We had 40,000 computers to upgrade.  Along with that, we also had to upgrade copies of Office.  So, 40,000 * $500 gives a cool 20 million and another 20 million or so in personnel costs. Not small change when the board wants costs in IT reduced.


I understand your point but you also need to factor in the potential for increased productivity too. New hardware and software lets you do more in less time. Then, 40,000 old PC's use a lot of power and make a lot of heat too. There is the potential to save a lot of coin on energy bills too which mitigates cost of upgrade too.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: VA2FSQ on April 30, 2013, 09:46:10 PM
Unfortunately many large companies do not grasp the concept of increased productivity, its all about cutting costs at any cost.
So the productivity drops, the frustration increases, and before you know it, the company is closing down or operations are shifted to another part of the world.

They kill creativity and motivation.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 01, 2013, 07:39:05 AM
Unfortunately many large companies do not grasp the concept of increased productivity, its all about cutting costs at any cost.
So the productivity drops, the frustration increases, and before you know it, the company is closing down or operations are shifted to another part of the world.

They kill creativity and motivation.


I agree and few even remotely consider the energy costs being greatly reduced with new hardware too.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K1ZJH on May 02, 2013, 07:16:43 AM
Gosh, all the cheap old-fart hams are coming out of the woodwork on this one.

At least they have call letters and aren't hiding their identities... and actually making useful posts. Imagine that?


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: NW0LF on May 02, 2013, 04:01:56 PM
Among the computers here, I run a pair of DELL OptiPlex GX-270 computers that are P4-3.2GHz with 2 GB ram running Win7 32 bit and one is even running a WinXP virtual machine using VMware player.  For my needs, it runs just fine.  I am not a gamer and yes I do have dual core computers here.  I keep the old Plex's running because they do what I need them to do in the manner I want them to.  When they let out the factory smoke, I will replace them with dual core computers.  It is not being a cheap old fart ham.  I'm a field service tech and I hate to recycle any old equipment if it can do what I want in a reasonable manner.

Wolfie


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: AA4PB on May 02, 2013, 04:27:46 PM
If it ain't broke - don't fix it  ::)


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 02, 2013, 04:39:14 PM
Among the computers here, I run a pair of DELL OptiPlex GX-270 computers that are P4-3.2GHz with 2 GB ram running Win7 32 bit and one is even running a WinXP virtual machine using VMware player.  For my needs, it runs just fine.  I am not a gamer and yes I do have dual core computers here.  I keep the old Plex's running because they do what I need them to do in the manner I want them to.  When they let out the factory smoke, I will replace them with dual core computers.  It is not being a cheap old fart ham.  I'm a field service tech and I hate to recycle any old equipment if it can do what I want in a reasonable manner.

Wolfie

The P4 can double as a coffee warmer and room heater too! Those CPU's alone used about 100 watts.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KY6M on May 03, 2013, 09:31:13 AM

The P4 can double as a coffee warmer and room heater too! Those CPU's alone used about 100 watts.

Well let's see. An average killowatt hour cost about .10 and 100 watts is 1/10 of that so that cpu is costing .01 per hour... I think I can afford that.  ::)


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 03, 2013, 09:59:09 AM

Well let's see. An average killowatt hour cost about .10 and 100 watts is 1/10 of that so that cpu is costing .01 per hour... I think I can afford that.  ::)



That's just CPU, then there is motherboard, video, HD. etc and power supply of that era that draw about 300 watts+ for computer then display. Figure on at least 4 cents a hour x 24hr x 7 days x 52 weeks equals about $350/yr per system. ( it could actually be even higher) Cheaper in long run to use a faster modern and more energy efficient system. They can use less than 100 watts for every thing.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: WB6DGN on May 03, 2013, 10:41:27 PM
Quote
Gosh, all the cheap old-fart hams are coming out of the woodwork on this one.

A crude, unnecessary, irrelevant comment if there ever was one.  What got your panties all in a bunch?  Lighten up and learn to show some respect.  You'll be "old" a darn sight sooner than you think and wonder where the time went just as all of us have.  Wish I could be there to see you respond to a similar comment.  You'll throw a hissy-fit to end all hissy-fits, I'd bet my station on it!
Tom


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KB9VGE on May 06, 2013, 12:36:14 PM
Quote
Lighten up and learn to show some respect.  You'll be "old" a darn sight sooner than you think and wonder where the time went just as all of us have. 
Lighten up and get a sense of humor.  Now that Im "there", age wise, Im proud to call myself an "old-fart".   It wasnt easy getting here (and being on the cheap side definitely helped).


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KF6QEX on May 06, 2013, 05:19:02 PM
Dear everyone that now you are running windows 7 and windows 8 and can't go back to XP.
A) Too bad.
B) Leave the rest of us alone
:)



Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: SWL2002 on May 06, 2013, 06:02:54 PM
Dear everyone that now you are running windows 7 and windows 8 and can't go back to XP.
A) Too bad.
B) Leave the rest of us alone
:)



What an idiotic comment.  No one is forcing you to get out of the past and upgrade.  If you want to run a relic OS, then have at it!


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: SWL2002 on May 06, 2013, 06:06:50 PM
Quote
Gosh, all the cheap old-fart hams are coming out of the woodwork on this one.

A crude, unnecessary, irrelevant comment if there ever was one.  What got your panties all in a bunch?  Lighten up and learn to show some respect.  You'll be "old" a darn sight sooner than you think and wonder where the time went just as all of us have.  Wish I could be there to see you respond to a similar comment.  You'll throw a hissy-fit to end all hissy-fits, I'd bet my station on it!
Tom

I must have hit the nail on the head with you -

Cheap, check.
Old, check.
Fart, check.

Yep.    ;D


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 06, 2013, 09:50:51 PM
I must have hit the nail on the head with you -

Cheap, check.
Old, check.
Fart, check.

Yep.    ;D

Yes you did, but called wrong nail as you really nailed yourself and it does not bode well for you. Good way to wear out your welcome fast. 


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: NK7Z on May 07, 2013, 07:32:18 AM
One word:  Linux!


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 07, 2013, 07:48:56 AM
One word:  Linux!

While Linux is a viable OS it lacks a good consistent GUI as it varies with different versions and some driver support still. One reason Windows got so big was a consistent interface and driver support.   


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: N0YXB on May 07, 2013, 09:16:30 AM
One reason Windows got so big was a consistent interface and driver support.   

That, and some of their business practices.   ;)

But seriously, I've been thinking of re-purposing my XP desktop to give Linux a try.   


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 07, 2013, 09:47:31 AM
But seriously, I've been thinking of re-purposing my XP desktop to give Linux a try.   

It is worth a shot if you do not mind messing with it to get it to work for you.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K1CJS on May 07, 2013, 10:00:21 AM
Quote
Gosh, all the cheap old-fart hams are coming out of the woodwork on this one.

A crude, unnecessary, irrelevant comment if there ever was one.  What got your panties all in a bunch?  Lighten up and learn to show some respect.  You'll be "old" a darn sight sooner than you think and wonder where the time went just as all of us have.  Wish I could be there to see you respond to a similar comment.  You'll throw a hissy-fit to end all hissy-fits, I'd bet my station on it!
Tom

A very simple way exists to deal with people who refuse to show their face.  Ignore them.  All that most of these unidentified people want is to stir up the pot.  If denied that, they'll go away.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: NK7Z on May 07, 2013, 10:06:07 AM
One reason Windows got so big was a consistent interface and driver support.   

That, and some of their business practices.   ;)

But seriously, I've been thinking of re-purposing my XP desktop to give Linux a try.   
Yes, the latest Gnome GUI change sort of surprised me, I suspect Gnome will maintain the new GUI for the next five or so years...  If you pick one distro, and stick with it, for the most part, the GUI does not change as often as Windows changes GUI's...  Every version of windows, is a bit different, and Windows 8 is a LOT different!  If you have not been looking at Linux for a few years, the driver issues are all but gone for run of the mill hardware...  For the odd hardware, like a high end scanner, you can get no support...  I always check my hardware prior to purchase, in 99% of the cases I have no issues...

If you are looking for the net install disk, try:
http://www.debian.org/distrib/netinst
Be sure to try Gnome, the new interface is "interesting", and at first I thought I would hate it.  After using it, it is faster, and simpler to use than the old interface...  Much to my surprise, I actually like it, but only after giving it a few weeks of use.  I gave a copy of the net install to a friend, he did it, and Gnome, and he had the same feelings, hated it when he saw it, but after using it for a week or so, liked it...  Very odd, I am not used to disliking something and having a total turn around...


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K1CJS on May 07, 2013, 10:12:31 AM
I'll stand by my statement.  There are companies that simply won't pay extortion rate fees to upgrade the OS the company uses.  If the system they're using now works for them, they'll continue to use it.

The comment about the newer hardware is slightly off base, however.  True, newer hardware sometimes uses less energy, but just like any other power supply, a computer supply puts out only what it has to to power the computer it is connected to.  Just because a supply is rated at 400 watts does not mean that it runs at that 400 watts every minute.  Likewise it doesn't mean the newer equipment will definitely use less.

The older OS that may be loaded onto a newer hardware unit will run just fine on that newer hardware unit too.  One does NOT have to have a new OS to pair with their new hardware.  That is yet another fallacy.  Yes, there may well be some hardware and drivers that the older OS won't support, but there is almost always either a driver that will work.  Likewise there is almost always a work-around so the hardware will function--or you just do not use that hardware.  Simple and to the point, so to each their own.  There is no law that says you have to upgrade anything, so if older OSes and PC systems work for you, Microsoft and the computer hardware makers will have to survive without your contribution.  They will survive, nonetheless.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 07, 2013, 10:49:05 AM
I'll stand by my statement.  There are companies that simply won't pay extortion rate fees to upgrade the OS the company uses.  If the system they're using now works for them, they'll continue to use it.

It is not that expensive for OS. It is site licenses for Office software that can get pricey.

The comment about the newer hardware is slightly off base, however.  True, newer hardware sometimes uses less energy, but just like any other power supply, a computer supply puts out only what it has to to power the computer it is connected to.  Just because a supply is rated at 400 watts does not mean that it runs at that 400 watts every minute.  Likewise it doesn't mean the newer equipment will definitely use less.

No off base at all. New equipment is far more energy efficient in two way, one is the average and peak draw is much less and second modern systems compile and execute 3 to 5 times as many instruction per watt of energy as old one do. Die sizes are down to .022 microns and shrinking and with that power demand and increase in yeild per wafer which means lower hardware costs too. 


The older OS that may be loaded onto a newer hardware unit will run just fine on that newer hardware unit too.  One does NOT have to have a new OS to pair with their new hardware.  That is yet another fallacy.  Yes, there may well be some hardware and drivers that the older OS won't support, but there is almost always either a driver that will work.  Likewise there is almost always a work-around so the hardware will function--or you just do not use that hardware.  Simple and to the point, so to each their own.  There is no law that says you have to upgrade anything, so if older OSes and PC systems work for you, Microsoft and the computer hardware makers will have to survive without your contribution.  They will survive, nonetheless.

This is really a waste here. XP was never design to efficiently work is a true multi core environment and is not efficient on modern hardware. Vista and beyond was design around modern multi cpu hardware and USB2, 3 and SATA. Putting XP on new hardware is like putting lipstick on a pig , it is still a pig and XP on new hardware is still a dated inefficient and soon to be unsupported OS hamstringing new hardware.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K5UNX on May 07, 2013, 12:04:16 PM
What is this? Operating system wars? Geesh . . .

Run what works for you. There is no "correct" operating system. I have been using Windows or DOS since 1987 so I have used almost every version that's has been released. Windows Me was horrible as was Vista though I know some people like Vista.

My main personal machine is a Mac running Mountain Lion.  My work laptop is currently Windows 8. I have a desktop at home running Windows 7 as another laptop. I have found, in my case, Win 7 to be the most stable version I have ever used. Less blue screens and system problems for me that any other version I have tried.

Linux: I don't want another hobby. That's why I bought the Mac. I want things to simply work as far as my computer goes at home and the Mac does simply do what I require. In my experience, getting Linux to do everything I require for personal computing takes too much time and effort. And there is no reward for doing so.

It really boils down to this. What application software do you need to run? Answer that, and that will influence your operating system choice for you.

If you want to run XP, fine. When I ask people why they insist on running XP, they never have a technical reason, it's always been they simply don't want to upgrade. Ohh they tell me all kinds of things, but there has never been a technical reason  . . . . Some people don't like change. That's OK.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KF6QEX on May 07, 2013, 02:28:37 PM
Quote
Run what works for you. There is no "correct" operating system.

On that note,  I can't wait for this thread to get locked. :)




Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: NK7Z on May 07, 2013, 02:46:58 PM
Linux: I don't want another hobby. That's why I bought the Mac. I want things to simply work as far as my computer goes at home and the Mac does simply do what I require. In my experience, getting Linux to do everything I require for personal computing takes too much time and effort. And there is no reward for doing so.

You wear the Apple Straitjacket well...  ;)

Just kidding...  I had too...  Sorry...


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: SWL2002 on May 07, 2013, 05:19:22 PM
What is this? Operating system wars? Geesh . . .

Run what works for you. There is no "correct" operating system. I have been using Windows or DOS since 1987 so I have used almost every version that's has been released. Windows Me was horrible as was Vista though I know some people like Vista.

My main personal machine is a Mac running Mountain Lion.  My work laptop is currently Windows 8. I have a desktop at home running Windows 7 as another laptop. I have found, in my case, Win 7 to be the most stable version I have ever used. Less blue screens and system problems for me that any other version I have tried.

Linux: I don't want another hobby. That's why I bought the Mac. I want things to simply work as far as my computer goes at home and the Mac does simply do what I require. In my experience, getting Linux to do everything I require for personal computing takes too much time and effort. And there is no reward for doing so.

It really boils down to this. What application software do you need to run? Answer that, and that will influence your operating system choice for you.

If you want to run XP, fine. When I ask people why they insist on running XP, they never have a technical reason, it's always been they simply don't want to upgrade. Ohh they tell me all kinds of things, but there has never been a technical reason  . . . . Some people don't like change. That's OK.

Yes, and with your comments you have also contributed to the "os wars".  Or do you think you are exempt from the criticism you level on everyone else even though you commit the same sins?


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: NK7Z on May 07, 2013, 06:16:43 PM
But seriously, I've been thinking of re-purposing my XP desktop to give Linux a try.   
If you are serious, write me off list, and I can point you at a few decent distros to choose from...


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: WB0KSL on May 07, 2013, 06:41:06 PM
Looks like when the FCC dropped the code requirement, they should have replaced it with a requirement for a diploma from Charm School.  But, alas, that would only apply to licensed hams, wouldn't it?  :)

73 de wb0ksl
John


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: NK7Z on May 07, 2013, 06:57:02 PM
Looks like when the FCC dropped the code requirement, they should have replaced it with a requirement for a diploma from Charm School.  But, alas, that would only apply to licensed hams, wouldn't it?  :)

73 de wb0ksl
John
snap!! 


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 08, 2013, 11:37:33 AM
Run what works for you. There is no "correct" operating system. I have been using Windows or DOS since 1987 so I have used almost every version that's has been released. Windows Me was horrible as was Vista though I know some people like Vista.

Actually there is a correct OS if you want it to be supported and support later standards and security concerns. ME was troublesome I will give you that. As far as Vista, I never had any problems with it and still like OS better than 7 in some ways and not in others. The "problem" with early Vista was it was ahead of the hardware at the time and some vendors, like Dell, rushed to market with wrong hardware. By time Vista reached SP1 and hardware improved Vista was fine. As long as you run 32 bit Vista on 2gig or more ram and 64bit on 6 gig or more with a minimum of a dual core CPU it is very solid. Win 7 is basically a tweaked Vista on mature hardware where dual core and 2 or more gig of ram is the norm now.


My main personal machine is a Mac running Mountain Lion.  My work laptop is currently Windows 8. I have a desktop at home running Windows 7 as another laptop. I have found, in my case, Win 7 to be the most stable version I have ever used. Less blue screens and system problems for me that any other version I have tried.

To date I have found 64 bit Vista with 8gig on a quad core the most stable with 64 bit 7 a close second. I have never had to reload a 32bit Vista or 7 machine either. 


Linux: I don't want another hobby. That's why I bought the Mac. I want things to simply work as far as my computer goes at home and the Mac does simply do what I require. In my experience, getting Linux to do everything I require for personal computing takes too much time and effort. And there is no reward for doing so.

I think you are likely to find more support for Linux than MAC. Because of Apple closed source mentality it limits the platforms growth. Open source of Linux promotes more apps and drivers to be written long term. As long as you set your sights lower and do not require much and want a simple computer a Mac can work well for you. My daughter has a Mac Book Pro and I have used in many times but I find it handicaps me and I me dislike the single button mentality of apple products too from phones to computers.   


It really boils down to this. What application software do you need to run? Answer that, and that will influence your operating system choice for you.

If you want to run XP, fine. When I ask people why they insist on running XP, they never have a technical reason, it's always been they simply don't want to upgrade. Ohh they tell me all kinds of things, but there has never been a technical reason  . . . . Some people don't like change. That's OK.

The problem is resisting change is counter productive. Computer software and hardware is evolving and allowing you to do things not possible even a few years ago. Hanging on to XP will not stop change and it will make change later (and you will have to change one day) even more painful as you will be even further behind. XP RIP.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K5UNX on May 08, 2013, 01:31:36 PM
Yes, and with your comments you have also contributed to the "os wars".  Or do you think you are exempt from the criticism you level on everyone else even though you commit the same sins?


No not immune . . . Just differing in opinion . . that's all.



Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KF6QEX on May 09, 2013, 02:42:40 AM
Quote
It really boils down to this. What application software do you need to run? Answer that, and that will influence your operating system choice for you.

What? No, no, no.
You buy the most current rock bottom priced  Dell or HP, overloaded with all the extra "conveniences", and antivirus product that makes it even slower, then you replace your printer, fax, camera because they are "too old" m then you replace all the software you used to run  and then.....and then you call it progress and try to get everyone else to make the same mistake and
 you tell them how much you loooove explorer 10 because after all, it's "new" !







Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 09, 2013, 05:30:25 AM
Quote
It really boils down to this. What application software do you need to run? Answer that, and that will influence your operating system choice for you.

What? No, no, no.
You buy the most current rock bottom priced  Dell or HP, overloaded with all the extra "conveniences", and antivirus product that makes it even slower, then you replace your printer, fax, camera because they are "too old" m then you replace all the software you used to run  and then.....and then you call it progress and try to get everyone else to make the same mistake and
 you tell them how much you loooove explorer 10 because after all, it's "new" !


Stay away from Dell, Founder wants to take it private and get out of consumer PC business and focus on servers and software so future support is in question.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K5UNX on May 10, 2013, 07:51:31 AM
Stay away from Dell, Founder wants to take it private and get out of consumer PC business and focus on servers and software so future support is in question.

Yea that really makes Dell something to possibly stay away from.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 10, 2013, 08:43:46 AM
Stay away from Dell, Founder wants to take it private and get out of consumer PC business and focus on servers and software so future support is in question.

Yea that really makes Dell something to possibly stay away from.


Its going to happen, major share owners are just arguing about final price of take over. Dell never had great tech support in past so any further cuts will render it ineffectual. 


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: AG6WT on May 10, 2013, 09:52:38 AM
Stay away from Dell, Founder wants to take it private and get out of consumer PC business and focus on servers and software so future support is in question.

But since everyone here is tech savvy, what can any PC company's tech support do that you can't figure out yourself or glean from the Internet?  It's not like tech support will help you setting up your sound card levels when your Signalink USB PTT stops working.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 10, 2013, 11:05:04 AM
Stay away from Dell, Founder wants to take it private and get out of consumer PC business and focus on servers and software so future support is in question.

But since everyone here is tech savvy, what can any PC company's tech support do that you can't figure out yourself or glean from the Internet?  It's not like tech support will help you setting up your sound card levels when your Signalink USB PTT stops working.

The point is as OS evolves OEM has to update base level drivers. Dell is going to be a orphan soon and should be voided s a long term solution 


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W4KYR on May 12, 2013, 11:10:28 AM
I still mainly run XP. Also use Linux Mint on a laptop and "Easy Peasy" on the Asus Netbook. No plans to upgrade to Windows 8 (I doubt Win 8 would run on my low to medium end XP machines anyway).

And I refuse to buy any new computer with Windows 8. Perhaps Microsoft will come to their senses and go back and release a normal OS like Win 7. Otherwise I'll just continue to run XP on my main computers or migrate more to Linux.

For the older Operating Systems, Windows 2000 was/is a good performer and still useful for some applications. And Windows 95 and Windows 98 can run older packet radio applications (and logging programs) as well as Win 2000 and XP using hyperterminal.

Just because the OS is dated no reason to stop using the computer. I'm sure non of us would toss out their Icom IC 706 MKIIG rigs because they are discontinued by Icom.

As long as I can get around the internet safely, I don't care what the OS is (as long as it is NOT Win 8 )  .


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 12, 2013, 01:24:28 PM
I still mainly run XP. Also use Linux Mint on a laptop and "Easy Peasy" on the Asus Netbook. No plans to upgrade to Windows 8 (I doubt Win 8 would run on my low to medium end XP machines anyway).

And I refuse to buy any new computer with Windows 8. Perhaps Microsoft will come to their senses and go back and release a normal OS like Win 7. Otherwise I'll just continue to run XP on my main computers or migrate more to Linux.

For the older Operating Systems, Windows 2000 was/is a good performer and still useful for some applications. And Windows 95 and Windows 98 can run older packet radio applications (and logging programs) as well as Win 2000 and XP using hyperterminal.

Just because the OS is dated no reason to stop using the computer. I'm sure non of us would toss out their Icom IC 706 MKIIG rigs because they are discontinued by Icom.

As long as I can get around the internet safely, I don't care what the OS is (as long as it is NOT Win 8 )  .

The "problem" is Internet standards have changed a lot and old hardware and OS cannot fully support it. As far as WIN 8 I admit I was not that crazy about it but after using it several times and getting to know it is WAY better than XP and maybe & to in some ways.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K5UNX on May 13, 2013, 08:07:06 AM
The "problem" is Internet standards have changed a lot and old hardware and OS cannot fully support it. As far as WIN 8 I admit I was not that crazy about it but after using it several times and getting to know it is WAY better than XP and maybe & to in some ways.

I am using Win 8 at work. I like it. I had to figure out a few ways to do things but once I did that, it's really nice. I don't miss the start button at all. If you remove all except for the commonly used tiles from the start screen, it really helps. Also use the Windows key. That's a good thing now . . .


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 13, 2013, 09:33:29 AM
The "problem" is Internet standards have changed a lot and old hardware and OS cannot fully support it. As far as WIN 8 I admit I was not that crazy about it but after using it several times and getting to know it is WAY better than XP and maybe & to in some ways.

I am using Win 8 at work. I like it. I had to figure out a few ways to do things but once I did that, it's really nice. I don't miss the start button at all. If you remove all except for the commonly used tiles from the start screen, it really helps. Also use the Windows key. That's a good thing now . . .

And corners of screen too. You can tell it was designed for a tablet first, desktop second.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K5UNX on May 13, 2013, 09:36:00 AM
The "problem" is Internet standards have changed a lot and old hardware and OS cannot fully support it. As far as WIN 8 I admit I was not that crazy about it but after using it several times and getting to know it is WAY better than XP and maybe & to in some ways.

I am using Win 8 at work. I like it. I had to figure out a few ways to do things but once I did that, it's really nice. I don't miss the start button at all. If you remove all except for the commonly used tiles from the start screen, it really helps. Also use the Windows key. That's a good thing now . . .

And corners of screen too. You can tell it was designed for a tablet first, desktop second.

Yea the corners are helpful. I find that I just don't use the "Metro" apps much. I use the normal Windows apps and just use the Start screen . . .  The News/Sports apps are kind of nice once you get to know how to manage those in the sidebar. I have two screens so I drag the Metro News app to my second monitor and use it there.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KE7TMA on May 13, 2013, 04:39:50 PM
Windows XP is the last Windows product I owned.  It is the last one I will ever use, as well.  It works fine for running Win32 applications, including most new games, it's fairly stable, and as long as you use a decent web browser and avoid downloading questionable files, it is not dangerous on the internet.  I especially recommend running it behind NAT, that way you can keep it safe.

Why was it be my last Windows?  Well, a couple of reasons.  Microsoft is a terrible company, their customer service is just horrifically bad, and they are complacent because they are the market leader.  Almost every piece of Windows software made can easily run on a Mac, Linux, or FreeBSD through Wine.  The UI has gone from usable to shockingly bad in the three revisions since XP.  It also seems that every important innovation in the GUI / OS department only reaches Microsoft years or a decade after it is proved to be useful.  Drivers!  Need I mention more?  Linux, FreeBSD, and OS X all seem to work with almost every piece of hardware out there, without needing special drivers.  Windows drivers come from questionable companies in places like China, where you really have no idea what the hell you are installing when you give that application installer its permission.

Microsoft is now making you pay for development tools.  You can use other tools like GCC on Windows, but what a hairy mess that is!  Sorry, guys, you should know by now that in order to court old developers and create new ones, you should throw in the entire, non-neutered, development toolchain for free.

No, Windows is mid 1990s tech, and it has had a few too many face lifts for me.  Sure, Unix is older, but it's essentially just a titanium skeleton on top of which a modern OS is made.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: WB0KSL on May 13, 2013, 08:10:33 PM
Windows 8 = Windows Diablo, or Vista II if you prefer.  I hate it, but have to have it to keep myself able to run some of the newer software.  Guess it's like politics or religion to some extent. Whatever keeps your boat afloat :-)

73 de wb0ksl
John

Sent from my iPad, BTW ;)




Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: SWL2002 on May 14, 2013, 03:31:12 AM
Windows XP is the last Windows product I owned.  It is the last one I will ever use, as well.  It works fine for running Win32 applications, including most new games, it's fairly stable, and as long as you use a decent web browser and avoid downloading questionable files, it is not dangerous on the internet.  I especially recommend running it behind NAT, that way you can keep it safe.

Why was it be my last Windows?  Well, a couple of reasons.  Microsoft is a terrible company, their customer service is just horrifically bad, and they are complacent because they are the market leader.  Almost every piece of Windows software made can easily run on a Mac, Linux, or FreeBSD through Wine.  The UI has gone from usable to shockingly bad in the three revisions since XP.  It also seems that every important innovation in the GUI / OS department only reaches Microsoft years or a decade after it is proved to be useful.  Drivers!  Need I mention more?  Linux, FreeBSD, and OS X all seem to work with almost every piece of hardware out there, without needing special drivers.  Windows drivers come from questionable companies in places like China, where you really have no idea what the hell you are installing when you give that application installer its permission.

Microsoft is now making you pay for development tools.  You can use other tools like GCC on Windows, but what a hairy mess that is!  Sorry, guys, you should know by now that in order to court old developers and create new ones, you should throw in the entire, non-neutered, development toolchain for free.

No, Windows is mid 1990s tech, and it has had a few too many face lifts for me.  Sure, Unix is older, but it's essentially just a titanium skeleton on top of which a modern OS is made.

 I have had just as many issues in Linux and OS X as I have had on Windows XP.  Windows 7 and Windows 8, I have had no application or driver issues.  They just work.  Linux is OK if you want to spend your time on newsgroups or support forums figuring out why certain hardware won't work or an application crashes.  OS X is better, but there are some really silly UI stuff in there too.  Lots of issues with i(Whatever) from Apple if you look in the support groups.   That you have less issues on Linux or Mac is a myth.

Apple's business practices are as bad or worse than MS in some ways.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 14, 2013, 06:49:14 AM
I have had just as many issues in Linux and OS X as I have had on Windows XP.  Windows 7 and Windows 8, I have had no application or driver issues.  They just work.  Linux is OK if you want to spend your time on newsgroups or support forums figuring out why certain hardware won't work or an application crashes.  OS X is better, but there are some really silly UI stuff in there too.  Lots of issues with i(Whatever) from Apple if you look in the support groups.   That you have less issues on Linux or Mac is a myth.

Apple's business practices are as bad or worse than MS in some ways.

Well put. I use Windows not because I love it but rather because it is the best game in town with by far the widest app and driver support too. Mac while seeing varying share of market will never be more than a nitch computer will limited app and driver support and Apples mentality on hardware design does not help. On Linux, because of the lack of one universal standard and GUI for it it will never make a big dent and is a hobby OS at best even though it is pretty stable. Most of the problems users have had with vista and 7 is bad hardware or not enough ram because OS's are pretty stable on right hardware.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: WW7KE on May 14, 2013, 09:03:28 AM
I have had just as many issues in Linux and OS X as I have had on Windows XP.  Windows 7 and Windows 8, I have had no application or driver issues.  They just work.  Linux is OK if you want to spend your time on newsgroups or support forums figuring out why certain hardware won't work or an application crashes.  OS X is better, but there are some really silly UI stuff in there too.  Lots of issues with i(Whatever) from Apple if you look in the support groups.   That you have less issues on Linux or Mac is a myth.

Apple's business practices are as bad or worse than MS in some ways.

Well put. I use Windows not because I love it but rather because it is the best game in town with by far the widest app and driver support too. Mac while seeing varying share of market will never be more than a nitch computer will limited app and driver support and Apples mentality on hardware design does not help. On Linux, because of the lack of one universal standard and GUI for it it will never make a big dent and is a hobby OS at best even though it is pretty stable. Most of the problems users have had with vista and 7 is bad hardware or not enough ram because OS's are pretty stable on right hardware.

Not to start a Windows-vs-Linux flame war here, but most mainstream Linux distros have no issues with any hardware made in the last 5 years.  Can't say the same about Windows XP or 7.  I've done plenty of installs of both, and have had the most trouble getting Windows drivers to work, or even finding them in some cases.

If one sticks to the most popular Linux distros (Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, etc.), there won't be any hardware or driver issues.  But using something that is more "bare-metal," such as Slackware or Gentoo, might give an inexperienced person fits.  I use Slackware and Mint and have no trouble with either as far as setting them up is concerned, but some of my low-end PCs just won't run Slackware due to video issues, but run Mint just fine.  But those same PCs won't run Windows 7 either.

And there is plenty of good software for Linux.  In fact, most of the more popular ones (Firefox, Google Chrome, LibreOffice, VLC media player, VMWare) are available for both.  This is as it should be.  There certainly are more software titles available for Windows, but the gap is narrowing.

If you want to use a Raspberry Pi, you're going to use Linux.  Windows is not available for it, and probably will never be.

People are going to use what they like, so there is no sense arguing about it.  Windows and Linux both have their good and bad points.  But Windows 8 is becoming an albatross for Microsoft (and they are almost a non-entity in the mobile space), just like ME and Vista were (they seem to royally screw up every second version of Windows).  I just won't buy anything that has Windows 8 on it if the vendor says it voids the warranty if I install anything else (That means you, Best Buy).

I can't comment on any Apple product because I've never used one - not even an Apple II.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: SWL2002 on May 14, 2013, 09:47:42 AM

If one sticks to the most popular Linux distros (Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, etc.), there won't be any hardware or driver issues.  But using something that is more "bare-metal," such as Slackware or Gentoo, might give an inexperienced person fits.  I use Slackware and Mint and have no trouble with either as far as setting them up is concerned, but some of my low-end PCs just won't run Slackware due to video issues, but run Mint just fine.  But those same PCs won't run Windows 7 either.

And there is plenty of good software for Linux.  In fact, most of the more popular ones (Firefox, Google Chrome, LibreOffice, VLC media player, VMWare) are available for both.  This is as it should be.  There certainly are more software titles available for Windows, but the gap is narrowing.


Interesting.  My experience is quite the opposite.  More problems getting the right drivers on Linux and many sound card and video card driver snafus on Linux.  Then after/if you get things running OK on Linux, there is always a glitch here and there.

Any serious software that you have to use in business and to get things done just isn't quite there in Linux.  LibreOffice is a joke compared to MS Office, for example.  It is OK for home/hobby users, but an exercise in frustration in a business setting.  A lot of the software on Linux is half done/half implemented and frustrating to use.  I do use Linux, mainly for GNURadio and Linrad which runs better on Linux than Windows (the main developers did not target Windows), but I could do without Linux, unlike Windows.

Oh, I have had many more applications software crashes on Linux than in Windows since Windows 95/98.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 14, 2013, 10:13:52 AM

Not to start a Windows-vs-Linux flame war here, but most mainstream Linux distros have no issues with any hardware made in the last 5 years.  Can't say the same about Windows XP or 7.  I've done plenty of installs of both, and have had the most trouble getting Windows drivers to work, or even finding them in some cases.


Because hardware and software is evolving it is foolish to think you can put Win7 or 8 on old hardware and have a "new" computer and not expect some problems. The solution is use newer hardware if you want newer OS just like it is silly to use old OS on new hardware. If you use the right hardware for OS with Windows you will have no problems.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KE7TMA on May 16, 2013, 03:12:46 PM

Not to start a Windows-vs-Linux flame war here, but most mainstream Linux distros have no issues with any hardware made in the last 5 years.  Can't say the same about Windows XP or 7.  I've done plenty of installs of both, and have had the most trouble getting Windows drivers to work, or even finding them in some cases.


Because hardware and software is evolving it is foolish to think you can put Win7 or 8 on old hardware and have a "new" computer and not expect some problems. The solution is use newer hardware if you want newer OS just like it is silly to use old OS on new hardware. If you use the right hardware for OS with Windows you will have no problems.

It's crazy to expect that a major OS vendor would provide drivers for extremely common devices, I know.  MS and the computer manufacturers must have a secret pact - the computer makers provide Windows, and MS fails to make drivers for older devices available.  Everybody wins except the people who use computers!


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 16, 2013, 03:41:34 PM
It's crazy to expect that a major OS vendor would provide drivers for extremely common devices, I know.  MS and the computer manufacturers must have a secret pact - the computer makers provide Windows, and MS fails to make drivers for older devices available.  Everybody wins except the people who use computers!

Actually there is a lot of drivers out there for new devises and Windows comes with many too. But there is little profit in writing new drivers for old device at end of life cycle or writing drivers for new devices to support a old OS at end of life cycle.   


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: WB6DGN on May 19, 2013, 04:42:14 PM
Gosh, all the cheap old-fart hams are coming out of the woodwork on this one.

Just the kind of comment I might expect from someone  who is ashamed to post his/her callsign; OR, don't you have one???

With age comes the realization that having the "latest and greatest" of everything is nothing more than egotistical stupidity coupled with a hefty dose of arrogance.
Tom


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: SWL2002 on May 19, 2013, 05:59:22 PM
Gosh, all the cheap old-fart hams are coming out of the woodwork on this one.

Just the kind of comment I might expect from someone  who is ashamed to post his/her callsign; OR, don't you have one???

With age comes the realization that having the "latest and greatest" of everything is nothing more than egotistical stupidity coupled with a hefty dose of arrogance.
Tom

No one is talking about having to have the latest and greatest.  But it is ridiculous to be stuck with old outdated hardware and an unsupportd operating system just because you are afraid of change.  People like you like to use the above excuse you have given when the truth is that you are just afraid and set in your ways.  You know deep down inside that it is true too, it bothers you so much that you come in a forum like this to huff and puff.  Sorry to have upset you so.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 19, 2013, 06:23:10 PM
No one is talking about having to have the latest and greatest.  But it is ridiculous to be stuck with old outdated hardware and an unsupportd operating system just because you are afraid of change.  

Valid point.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K1CJS on May 21, 2013, 04:40:59 AM
...But it is ridiculous to be stuck with old outdated hardware and an unsupportd operating system just because you are afraid of change.  People like you like to use the above excuse you have given when the truth is that you are just afraid and set in your ways.  You know deep down inside that it is true too, it bothers you so much that you come in a forum like this to huff and puff.  Sorry to have upset you so.

Sorry, but you're making a generalized assumption here.  It isn't always that the person is 'afraid of change,' it is sometimes about how the newer OS behaves with the software available.  Microsoft is notorious for making changes under the guise of 'improvements' that renders older software unusable.  That effort is seen (by the smarter of us, at least) as a way to force the purchase of the newer OS.

I admit that I did not like having to use the 'metro' interface of Win 8 beta, but it was usable.  The Win 8 general release included the ability to switch to the 'classic' Win 7 desktop--a definite improvement for those who still used a keyboard and mouse.  The clincher, however, was that with the revised coding, some software that Win 7 supported easily was no longer useable--and that same thing has been happening between the software and the OS ever since the Windows 2000 release. 

I for one get sick and tired of having to pay out to these software giants every time someone has a newer idea--and puts that idea into production in the form of a revised OS.  If the older system and software (and hardware, for that matter--re: the elimination of serial ports in favor of USB ports) works for what someone is doing with it--and they're satisfied with the system they are using, you have no cause--or right--to label that person as you have.  You come off just like a kid with a new toy--calling down another kid because they don't have that toy.  So go and play with your new OS and hardware, and leave the rest of us in peace.  Oh, yes...  and have a nice day!


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KG4RUL on May 21, 2013, 05:17:01 AM
Bottom line here is that Microsoft will force some major customers into the LINUX camp.  When the cost of software rewrites, to accommodate the latest-and-greatest version of Windows, exceeds the costs of rewriting to the LINUX platform, coupled with the lower cost of the LINUX OS, productivity software such as OpenOffice and required hardware, the money will drive the decision making process. 

Keep in mind that there is a significant amount of text-based, business software still in use today.  The Windows environment is not always the best fit.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K5UNX on May 21, 2013, 10:13:46 AM
Sorry, but you're making a generalized assumption here.  It isn't always that the person is 'afraid of change,' it is sometimes about how the newer OS behaves with the software available.  Microsoft is notorious for making changes under the guise of 'improvements' that renders older software unusable.  That effort is seen (by the smarter of us, at least) as a way to force the purchase of the newer OS.

I admit that I did not like having to use the 'metro' interface of Win 8 beta, but it was usable.  The Win 8 general release included the ability to switch to the 'classic' Win 7 desktop--a definite improvement for those who still used a keyboard and mouse.  The clincher, however, was that with the revised coding, some software that Win 7 supported easily was no longer useable--and that same thing has been happening between the software and the OS ever since the Windows 2000 release. 

I for one get sick and tired of having to pay out to these software giants every time someone has a newer idea--and puts that idea into production in the form of a revised OS.  If the older system and software (and hardware, for that matter--re: the elimination of serial ports in favor of USB ports) works for what someone is doing with it--and they're satisfied with the system they are using, you have no cause--or right--to label that person as you have.  You come off just like a kid with a new toy--calling down another kid because they don't have that toy.  So go and play with your new OS and hardware, and leave the rest of us in peace.  Oh, yes...  and have a nice day!

I am using Win 8 for my work laptop. It is really not any worse to use than Win7.  The Metro apps are interesting but without a touch screen they don't make sense. Working with the standard desktop interface is just like working with Win 7. I just unpinned app from the start screen until I have the 15 or 20 that I use weekly and it's actually very useful. With you hands on the keyboard, it's easy to start any application without touching the mouse. I can start MS Word for example faster from the keyboard with Win8, than by taking my hand away from the keyboard to the mouse, navigating and clicking.  It's not near as bad as people talk about after I have been actually using it everyday for work for the last 2 months. It's a lot better than people think who have not used it.



Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 21, 2013, 10:55:45 AM
Bottom line here is that Microsoft will force some major customers into the LINUX camp.  When the cost of software rewrites, to accommodate the latest-and-greatest version of Windows, exceeds the costs of rewriting to the LINUX platform, coupled with the lower cost of the LINUX OS, productivity software such as OpenOffice and required hardware, the money will drive the decision making process. 

Keep in mind that there is a significant amount of text-based, business software still in use today.  The Windows environment is not always the best fit.

As hardware evolved so has OS. Even 5 years ago the average system is much slower than today and faster hardware lets you use a more interactive OS with more whistles and bells. The problem with Linux is there is not standard and there is many flavors. New hardware is cheap and more energy efficient and increases productivity both factors in corporate America. You evolve and change or put feet in cement and fall behind.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: WW7KE on May 21, 2013, 12:22:57 PM

If one sticks to the most popular Linux distros (Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, etc.), there won't be any hardware or driver issues.  But using something that is more "bare-metal," such as Slackware or Gentoo, might give an inexperienced person fits.  I use Slackware and Mint and have no trouble with either as far as setting them up is concerned, but some of my low-end PCs just won't run Slackware due to video issues, but run Mint just fine.  But those same PCs won't run Windows 7 either.

And there is plenty of good software for Linux.  In fact, most of the more popular ones (Firefox, Google Chrome, LibreOffice, VLC media player, VMWare) are available for both.  This is as it should be.  There certainly are more software titles available for Windows, but the gap is narrowing.

Interesting.  My experience is quite the opposite.  More problems getting the right drivers on Linux and many sound card and video card driver snafus on Linux.  Then after/if you get things running OK on Linux, there is always a glitch here and there.

Video can still be an issue, but it's getting better.  The problem there is with vendors who won't release open-source drivers.  But I haven't seen any issues with sound for many years.

And there aren't any glitches when setting up Windows systems?  Riiiiiight.  You're either very lucky or just flat-out trolling.  Any OS will have some problems - none are perfect.

Quote
Any serious software that you have to use in business and to get things done just isn't quite there in Linux.  LibreOffice is a joke compared to MS Office, for example.

Depends on what you're doing.  For my purposes at work, LibreOffice actually works better than MSOffice.  It's faster, and doesn't have that butt-ugly & useless ribbon interface.  But everybody has their preference.  The issues with compatibility between them are almost (but not entirely) gone now.

Quote
 It is OK for home/hobby users, but an exercise in frustration in a business setting.  A lot of the software on Linux is half done/half implemented and frustrating to use.  I do use Linux, mainly for GNURadio and Linrad which runs better on Linux than Windows (the main developers did not target Windows), but I could do without Linux, unlike Windows.

Tell that to NASA.  Laptops on the International Space Station are going to be fitted with Debian 6.  Windows is done on the ISS.

Quote
Oh, I have had many more applications software crashes on Linux than in Windows since Windows 95/98.

Very rarely have I had an app crash - Firefox (also crashes from time to time on Windows) is the worst.  But app crashes are the app maintainer's problem, not a Linux problem.  I've had far more crashes on Windows than Linux.  A kernel panic is rare unless I was screwing around with the system.  Can't say that about blue screens in Windows, although Win7 is much better than XP in that regard.

And the reason I switched to Linux in the first place was to get away from security issues and crashes in DOS-based Win98.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: WW7KE on May 21, 2013, 12:41:04 PM
Bottom line here is that Microsoft will force some major customers into the LINUX camp.  When the cost of software rewrites, to accommodate the latest-and-greatest version of Windows, exceeds the costs of rewriting to the LINUX platform, coupled with the lower cost of the LINUX OS, productivity software such as OpenOffice and required hardware, the money will drive the decision making process. 

LibreOffice has supplanted OO, but what you're saying is correct.  I dual-boot Win7 Pro and Linux Mint 13 on my PC at work, and can run XP in virtual machines in both.  I am far more productive in Mint than I am in Win7.  In fact, I rarely have to boot into Win7 at all - maybe once every other week to run one piece of software that requires it.

Quote
Keep in mind that there is a significant amount of text-based, business software still in use today.  The Windows environment is not always the best fit.

Not only that, but there is still plenty of older business software in use that absolutely will not run under Windows 7.  The company I work for as a lot of this software and will not pay the $thousands required to upgrade.  Businesses just aren't going to spend kilobucks to upgrade their hardware and software every time Microsoft comes out with a new OS.

At home, in our shacks, we can use whatever we like.  But at work, we have to use what we're told to use.  Fortunately, my company is rather lenient, so long the OS is a recent version of Linux, or WinXP or 7 Pro (Win8 has not been approved for our use, either on our desktops or in our products).


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: SWL2002 on May 22, 2013, 04:47:23 AM

If one sticks to the most popular Linux distros (Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, etc.), there won't be any hardware or driver issues.  But using something that is more "bare-metal," such as Slackware or Gentoo, might give an inexperienced person fits.  I use Slackware and Mint and have no trouble with either as far as setting them up is concerned, but some of my low-end PCs just won't run Slackware due to video issues, but run Mint just fine.  But those same PCs won't run Windows 7 either.

And there is plenty of good software for Linux.  In fact, most of the more popular ones (Firefox, Google Chrome, LibreOffice, VLC media player, VMWare) are available for both.  This is as it should be.  There certainly are more software titles available for Windows, but the gap is narrowing.

Interesting.  My experience is quite the opposite.  More problems getting the right drivers on Linux and many sound card and video card driver snafus on Linux.  Then after/if you get things running OK on Linux, there is always a glitch here and there.

Video can still be an issue, but it's getting better.  The problem there is with vendors who won't release open-source drivers.  But I haven't seen any issues with sound for many years.

And there aren't any glitches when setting up Windows systems?  Riiiiiight.  You're either very lucky or just flat-out trolling.  Any OS will have some problems - none are perfect.

Quote
Any serious software that you have to use in business and to get things done just isn't quite there in Linux.  LibreOffice is a joke compared to MS Office, for example.

Depends on what you're doing.  For my purposes at work, LibreOffice actually works better than MSOffice.  It's faster, and doesn't have that butt-ugly & useless ribbon interface.  But everybody has their preference.  The issues with compatibility between them are almost (but not entirely) gone now.

Quote
 It is OK for home/hobby users, but an exercise in frustration in a business setting.  A lot of the software on Linux is half done/half implemented and frustrating to use.  I do use Linux, mainly for GNURadio and Linrad which runs better on Linux than Windows (the main developers did not target Windows), but I could do without Linux, unlike Windows.

Tell that to NASA.  Laptops on the International Space Station are going to be fitted with Debian 6.  Windows is done on the ISS.

Quote
Oh, I have had many more applications software crashes on Linux than in Windows since Windows 95/98.

Very rarely have I had an app crash - Firefox (also crashes from time to time on Windows) is the worst.  But app crashes are the app maintainer's problem, not a Linux problem.  I've had far more crashes on Windows than Linux.  A kernel panic is rare unless I was screwing around with the system.  Can't say that about blue screens in Windows, although Win7 is much better than XP in that regard.

And the reason I switched to Linux in the first place was to get away from security issues and crashes in DOS-based Win98.

Linux accounts for less than 5% of desktop users.  It is irrelevant and down in the noise.  I have apps from the Win95 days that still runs on Windows 8.   Too many applications for Linux are half finished, and very buggy.  I have seen more app crashes on Linux than on Windows since Windows 95/98/ME.



Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: SWL2002 on May 22, 2013, 05:16:06 AM
...But it is ridiculous to be stuck with old outdated hardware and an unsupportd operating system just because you are afraid of change.  People like you like to use the above excuse you have given when the truth is that you are just afraid and set in your ways.  You know deep down inside that it is true too, it bothers you so much that you come in a forum like this to huff and puff.  Sorry to have upset you so.

Sorry, but you're making a generalized assumption here.  It isn't always that the person is 'afraid of change,' it is sometimes about how the newer OS behaves with the software available.  Microsoft is notorious for making changes under the guise of 'improvements' that renders older software unusable.  That effort is seen (by the smarter of us, at least) as a way to force the purchase of the newer OS.

I admit that I did not like having to use the 'metro' interface of Win 8 beta, but it was usable.  The Win 8 general release included the ability to switch to the 'classic' Win 7 desktop--a definite improvement for those who still used a keyboard and mouse.  The clincher, however, was that with the revised coding, some software that Win 7 supported easily was no longer useable--and that same thing has been happening between the software and the OS ever since the Windows 2000 release. 

I for one get sick and tired of having to pay out to these software giants every time someone has a newer idea--and puts that idea into production in the form of a revised OS.  If the older system and software (and hardware, for that matter--re: the elimination of serial ports in favor of USB ports) works for what someone is doing with it--and they're satisfied with the system they are using, you have no cause--or right--to label that person as you have.  You come off just like a kid with a new toy--calling down another kid because they don't have that toy.  So go and play with your new OS and hardware, and leave the rest of us in peace.  Oh, yes...  and have a nice day!

It is legitimate to say that you don't want to upgrade from Windows XP because your system is running fine, or you don't want to go through the hassle of upgrading/reinstalling applications, or a particular application that you depend on only runs on XP, etc...  But it is not legitimate to make up a myriad of excuses why Windows 8 is worse than Windows XP or Linux.  If you are comfortable with what you have, that's fine.  Just don't make up a bunch on nonsense excuses why you won't upgrade when others who have upgraded have had no issues and are happy too.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: AG6WT on May 22, 2013, 01:26:20 PM
The problem with Linux is there is not standard and there is many flavors.

There is a standard. Pretty much all Linux distributions use the same file system layout and the same versions of the standard libraries. This is why almost all Linux distributions have the same library of applications available to them and all can run the same must have apps like Chrome, Firefox, LibreOffice, Amarok, GIMP, Eclipse, etc.

I think by "many flavors" you are referring to the desk top environment, the work place shell. Granted there are many to choose from: Gnome, KDE, Unity, MATE, Xfce, LXDE, etc. and so it can be confusing for the unintiated. But virtually every Linux distribution lets you pick the one you want to use. Even more importantly, if your favorite distribution changes the desktop to something you absolutely hate, you can easily rollback to something that worked for you. IMHO, this is not a weakness of Linux, rather it is one of its major strengths!


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: NK7Z on May 22, 2013, 01:53:10 PM

Tell that to NASA.  Laptops on the International Space Station are going to be fitted with Debian 6.  Windows is done on the ISS.


Can you provide a link for this please?


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: WW7KE on May 22, 2013, 02:54:28 PM

Tell that to NASA.  Laptops on the International Space Station are going to be fitted with Debian 6.  Windows is done on the ISS.

Can you provide a link for this please?

Here's one from TechnoBuffalo (http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/05/10/iss-switches-from-windows-to-linux/), dated May 10.  There are others - just do a search in Google's news section.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: NK7Z on May 24, 2013, 12:32:13 AM
Linux accounts for less than 5% of desktop users.  It is irrelevant and down in the noise.  I have apps from the Win95 days that still runs on Windows 8.   Too many applications for Linux are half finished, and very buggy.  I have seen more app crashes on Linux than on Windows since Windows 95/98/ME.
You should let NASA know!!! 


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: NK7Z on May 24, 2013, 12:33:22 AM

Tell that to NASA.  Laptops on the International Space Station are going to be fitted with Debian 6.  Windows is done on the ISS.

Can you provide a link for this please?

Here's one from TechnoBuffalo (http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/05/10/iss-switches-from-windows-to-linux/), dated May 10.  There are others - just do a search in Google's news section.
Thank you sir, found it!


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W2RWJ on May 24, 2013, 04:19:03 AM
Linux accounts for less than 5% of desktop users.  It is irrelevant and down in the noise.  I have apps from the Win95 days that still runs on Windows 8.   Too many applications for Linux are half finished, and very buggy.  I have seen more app crashes on Linux than on Windows since Windows 95/98/ME.
You should let NASA know!!! 
Add Avaya to the list.  Red Hat replaced pecos/oryx for the operating system running their enterprise class telephone systems (Communications Manager, the successor to Definity)

If you are looking for large numbers of desktop users, google "Munich migrates to linux"


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on May 24, 2013, 08:16:53 AM

Tell that to NASA.  Laptops on the International Space Station are going to be fitted with Debian 6.  Windows is done on the ISS.


Not for reasons you think. They can modify and tweak Debian code for their needs and not windows and they have ability to write custom apps for it. This is far beyond average user ability.



Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: WW7KE on May 24, 2013, 08:53:42 AM

Tell that to NASA.  Laptops on the International Space Station are going to be fitted with Debian 6.  Windows is done on the ISS.

Not for reasons you think. They can modify and tweak Debian code for their needs and not windows and they have ability to write custom apps for it. This is far beyond average user ability.

Yes, you're correct.  I had heard some stories about a virus issue, but that's not substantiated.

But that's an advantage of using Linux over Windows.  Not everybody needs it, of course, but some do, including my employer, an office phone systems company.  We use both Windows Server and Linux in our products, and Windows will be going away in the next year or so due to high licensing costs.  That's another Linux advantage, especially in business (but not in the consumer space, where Windows is preinstalled on PCs and the lower single-machine licensing costs are factored in).


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KY6M on February 18, 2015, 08:19:04 AM
My Windows XP still receives new security updates from Microsoft often!  ;D


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: VK6IS on February 19, 2015, 05:16:32 AM
My Windows XP still receives new security updates from Microsoft often!  ;D

Just fixed up a win_xp PC today,
& it received Nine Updates, - once it was connected to 'net.

- it's old, & has insufficient Ram to run SP3 correctly,
so - it's quite slow.

suggested that the cheapest fix, was to up the Ram, so it's closer to 1Gb,
or buy a tablet   :(
But - the tablet wouldn't do everything that they could on the PC,
& a notebook would be even more expensive.

- the OP can't afford much.
maybe one of their children ( grown up ) can buy them win_10,
- when it comes out ??
doubtful, at best.

- there is a surprising amount of OPs like that, around the place,
and they can't afford to keep "upgrading"  :o
so - they haven't.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: G8YMW on February 19, 2015, 05:48:32 AM
Ram chips are cheap enough, you just need to get the correct chips. If the computer is a bought unit, Google the model for the specs and "Slam in the ram" up to 4 Gigs (assuming the XP is 32 bit which is by far the most common).


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on February 19, 2015, 10:01:54 AM
Ram chips are cheap enough, you just need to get the correct chips. If the computer is a bought unit, Google the model for the specs and "Slam in the ram" up to 4 Gigs (assuming the XP is 32 bit which is by far the most common).

Actually a 32 bit OS will only see about 3.2 gigs so expanding beyond 3 is kinda pointless. As far as it helping, long ago I found XP gained nothing past 2 gig but Vista and 7 gained going past 2 gig. 


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: G8YMW on February 19, 2015, 11:17:18 AM
Yes I'm aware of that although IIRC it does vary up to about 3.5 Gig. The advantage is he will have options if he decides to change O/S.
Next time I'm at home, I'll have a look at my desktop


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: KK4GGL on February 19, 2015, 11:21:13 AM
Ram chips are cheap enough, you just need to get the correct chips. If the computer is a bought unit, Google the model for the specs and "Slam in the ram" up to 4 Gigs (assuming the XP is 32 bit which is by far the most common).

Actually a 32 bit OS will only see about 3.2 gigs

... which is why the 6 gigs in my 32 bit Debian system is recognized.

so expanding beyond 3 is kinda pointless. As far as it helping, long ago I found XP gained nothing past 2 gig but Vista and 7 gained going past 2 gig. 

Maybe that has to do with OS bloat.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on February 19, 2015, 11:39:05 AM

... which is why the 6 gigs in my 32 bit Debian system is recognized.


Oh how blind.  The OS CANNOT see/use more than about 3.2 gig period. The only way it an use any of it is by paged bank switching. It CANNOT see or use more than 3.2 gig contiguous. You would know this if you knew anything bout 32 bit OS's but obviously you do not no surprise. 32 bit servers of days past used bank switching and a special Xeon CPU with a 48 bit address register that allowed it to track and bank switch on fly several gig of memory.   


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: AG6WT on February 19, 2015, 01:19:52 PM
Through Physical Adress Extension (PAE), a 32-bit OS on x86 CPUs could address more than 4Gb of RAM.  The 32-bit Linux kernel has had PAE support for a number of years now and can handle up to 64Gb.  Windows XP had it initially but due to numerous driver problems they limited 32-bit XP, Vista, 7, and 8 to 4Gb.  If you have more RAM you have to use 64-bit Windows.

PAE was first implemented in 1995 with the Pentium Pro.

So, 32-bit Debian can use 6Gb.  However, the virtual address space is limited to 4Gb so a single process can't use more than 4Gb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: AG6WT on February 19, 2015, 01:25:08 PM
My Windows XP still receives new security updates from Microsoft often!  ;D

Just fixed up a win_xp PC today,
& it received Nine Updates, - once it was connected to 'net.

- it's old, & has insufficient Ram to run SP3 correctly,
so - it's quite slow.

suggested that the cheapest fix, was to up the Ram, so it's closer to 1Gb,
or buy a tablet   :(
But - the tablet wouldn't do everything that they could on the PC,
& a notebook would be even more expensive.

- the OP can't afford much.
maybe one of their children ( grown up ) can buy them win_10,
- when it comes out ??
doubtful, at best.

- there is a surprising amount of OPs like that, around the place,
and they can't afford to keep "upgrading"  :o
so - they haven't.


For a system that old with that little amount of RAM, I recommend installing a light weight, currently supported, Linux such as Xubuntu 14.04.  I'm using Xubuntu 14.04 on a computer with 1 Gb RAM and Intel Atom CPU and it works just fine with Firefox, Chrome, and Libre Office.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on February 19, 2015, 03:16:46 PM
Through Physical Adress Extension (PAE), a 32-bit OS on x86 CPUs could address more than 4Gb of RAM.  The 32-bit Linux kernel has had PAE support for a number of years now and can handle up to 64Gb.  Windows XP had it initially but due to numerous driver problems they limited 32-bit XP, Vista, 7, and 8 to 4Gb.  If you have more RAM you have to use 64-bit Windows.

PAE was first implemented in 1995 with the Pentium Pro.

So, 32-bit Debian can use 6Gb.  However, the virtual address space is limited to 4Gb so a single process can't use more than 4Gb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension

Your are wrong here as addressing and using is two different things which you do not understand. You must bank switch/page memory with 32 bit OS past 3.2 gig period... You CANNOT use as contiguous or flat memory access more than 3.2 gig at a time!!  It was not until the birth of 64 bit OS was FLAT memory access possible past 3.2 gig. Wishing will never change this. One of the driving factors to move to 64 bit it to smash the 3.2 gig flat memory barrier. 


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: AG6WT on February 19, 2015, 09:16:23 PM
Through Physical Adress Extension (PAE), a 32-bit OS on x86 CPUs could address more than 4Gb of RAM.  The 32-bit Linux kernel has had PAE support for a number of years now and can handle up to 64Gb.  Windows XP had it initially but due to numerous driver problems they limited 32-bit XP, Vista, 7, and 8 to 4Gb.  If you have more RAM you have to use 64-bit Windows.

PAE was first implemented in 1995 with the Pentium Pro.

So, 32-bit Debian can use 6Gb.  However, the virtual address space is limited to 4Gb so a single process can't use more than 4Gb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension

Your are wrong here as addressing and using is two different things which you do not understand. You must bank switch/page memory with 32 bit OS past 3.2 gig period... You CANNOT use as contiguous or flat memory access more than 3.2 gig at a time!!  It was not until the birth of 64 bit OS was FLAT memory access possible past 3.2 gig. Wishing will never change this. One of the driving factors to move to 64 bit it to smash the 3.2 gig flat memory barrier. 

I have to make a correction here wrt 32-bit Linux with PAE.  In this case a single process can only address 3Gb with the remaining 1Gb of the 4Gb address space reserved for the kernel.  If you tweak the kernel settings you give more space to user space processes but I think 3.5Gb is the practical limit.  With 32-bit Linux PAE with more than 4Gb physical RAM, the OS can use that extra RAM for multiple processes, each restricted to 3Gb.  This is why the above mentioned 32-bit Debian can use 6Gb.  The advantage here is that if I have several processes running at 2Gb each on a 8-16Gb computer, the OS can keep them in RAM and won't have to resort to disk swap.  If I do hit the swap limit, I can add more RAM up to a total of 64Gb.

To get above the 3Gb per process limit, one must migrate to 64-bit Linux.

In contrast, 32-bit Windows desktop (but not some server editions) won't allocate more than 3.2Gb for all user processes.  RAM beyond 4Gb is inaccessible.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: VK6IS on February 22, 2015, 07:58:28 AM
Ram chips are cheap enough, you just need to get the correct chips. If the computer is a bought unit, Google the model for the specs and "Slam in the ram" up to 4 Gigs (assuming the XP is 32 bit which is by far the most common).

PCs of this vintage, generally won't recognise anything above about 2Gb ram.
- the OP is a pensioner & won't be able to pay that much, anyway.

they are favourable to the idea &  it will cost around $80 or so for a pair of 512Mb cards.
- it's also a laptop, which makes the upgrade even more expensive.

also moving to a Linux O/S which would be  desirable,
may not work, as the OPs 'net connection is a 3g dongle,
which may also be an issue with anything other than a heavy weighted Linux O/S.
- the lightweight DEs cut out support for 3g modems.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W8JX on February 22, 2015, 08:05:29 AM
Through Physical Adress Extension (PAE), a 32-bit OS on x86 CPUs could address more than 4Gb of RAM.  The 32-bit Linux kernel has had PAE support for a number of years now and can handle up to 64Gb.  Windows XP had it initially but due to numerous driver problems they limited 32-bit XP, Vista, 7, and 8 to 4Gb.  If you have more RAM you have to use 64-bit Windows.

PAE was first implemented in 1995 with the Pentium Pro.

So, 32-bit Debian can use 6Gb.  However, the virtual address space is limited to 4Gb so a single process can't use more than 4Gb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension

Your are wrong here as addressing and using is two different things which you do not understand. You must bank switch/page memory with 32 bit OS past 3.2 gig period... You CANNOT use as contiguous or flat memory access more than 3.2 gig at a time!!  It was not until the birth of 64 bit OS was FLAT memory access possible past 3.2 gig. Wishing will never change this. One of the driving factors to move to 64 bit it to smash the 3.2 gig flat memory barrier. 

I have to make a correction here wrt 32-bit Linux with PAE.  In this case a single process can only address 3Gb with the remaining 1Gb of the 4Gb address space reserved for the kernel.  If you tweak the kernel settings you give more space to user space processes but I think 3.5Gb is the practical limit.  With 32-bit Linux PAE with more than 4Gb physical RAM, the OS can use that extra RAM for multiple processes, each restricted to 3Gb.  This is why the above mentioned 32-bit Debian can use 6Gb.  The advantage here is that if I have several processes running at 2Gb each on a 8-16Gb computer, the OS can keep them in RAM and won't have to resort to disk swap.  If I do hit the swap limit, I can add more RAM up to a total of 64Gb.

To get above the 3Gb per process limit, one must migrate to 64-bit Linux.

In contrast, 32-bit Windows desktop (but not some server editions) won't allocate more than 3.2Gb for all user processes.  RAM beyond 4Gb is inaccessible.

Yes it is possible to bank switch with 32 bit OS but I see little point because the CPU can only use on chunk at a time with 32 bit and tasks in other chunks are paused until that page is active. I see no reason to use a 32 bit OS with more than 3 gig. The whole reason behind 64 bit OS is flat continue memory  access. Page swapping is a poor runner up.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K1CJS on February 22, 2015, 11:26:01 AM
My Windows XP still receives new security updates from Microsoft often!  ;D

Only a malicious software removal tool and an occasional overwhelmingly important fix.

BTW, did anyone realize that this thread is over a year old?  The quoted post started it up again.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: AA4PB on February 22, 2015, 12:31:55 PM
This thread is like XP - you just can't kill it  ;)


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: W2RWJ on February 22, 2015, 03:52:01 PM
My Windows XP still receives new security updates from Microsoft often!  ;D

Only a malicious software removal tool and an occasional overwhelmingly important fix.

BTW, did anyone realize that this thread is over a year old?  The quoted post started it up again.

OP here.   N2MO is running W7 on the desktop with dual DVI monitors.  Found factory video cards on eBay for dirt cheap  (Back end is Windows Server 2012)

By the time W7 is EOL, I expect to jump to FOSS as Linux is sneaking into the mix on the SDR and specialty servers.

73 Martin
W2RWJ



Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: G8YMW on February 22, 2015, 04:05:49 PM
K1CJS
If you put in the registry tweak, the XP machine becomes POS ready2009 which receives all microsoft security updates until 2019. This month I got 7 updates (including the malicious software removal tool)
I got it from the "Unofficial Service Pack 4"
However, since Christmas, I have been using Ubuntu 14.10 as my prime O/S (still got XP and 7 on the machine)


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K1CJS on February 24, 2015, 07:26:07 AM
K1CJS
If you put in the registry tweak....

Oh, OK.  I didn't see that anyone mentioned the registry tweak before--and thanks for that info.  I put in that tweak and am getting the updates now too.


Title: RE: Windows XP - the end approaches......
Post by: K1ZJH on February 24, 2015, 07:40:18 AM
Tried the tweak, and something in the POS updates screws with my fonts on certain webpages.  Very annoying.  I had to go back to an early restore point.  And yes, I did play around with the clear type and other settings.

Pete