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eHam Forums => Misc => Topic started by: W0DV on April 26, 2013, 02:19:21 PM



Title: Still No Ammo
Post by: W0DV on April 26, 2013, 02:19:21 PM
The weather is finally improving in the Fargo area. I'm looking forward to using my new IC-7200 for portable operation. I frequent the Sheyenne Grasslands with my equipment, and setup a small antenna farm for 3 days or so. I never leave for the grasslands without a .357, or at least a .22

Still no ammo! Why is there a shortage for rim fire ammo, and even the .357 magnum, and 9mm, when the "targeted" weapons use the .223? (5.56mm). The gun ban didn't pass, so I guess I'll have to be patient until the the ammo situation "calms down".

Incidentally, I purchased an AR-15 today. I could only buy one box of ammo :(

Just a rant,

Dave





Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W1JKA on April 26, 2013, 03:57:39 PM
Shortage is due to simple hoarding as the 22 cal. is still what the majority of gun owning home owners have and what certain off duty public protection officers prefer.Supply and demand by thoses in the know.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on April 26, 2013, 04:35:15 PM
In my life I have never seen such a gun and ammo craze. Special interests (NRA which is really controlled by gun lobby) is fueling media and media is causing consumer panic and hording. The result is the kind of supply and demand than suppliers love.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: N6PJB on April 26, 2013, 04:44:50 PM
It is a good thing I reload. Squirrel-cong weekend starts tomorrow. Whoopie! ;D ;D I don't use .22 rimfire. The AR will go through at least 300 rounds.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: N0JI on April 26, 2013, 05:25:29 PM
(NRA which is really controlled by gun lobby)

Well.....  And the 4.2 million or so DUES PAYING members.......  When the government stops making threats against honest gun owners, then things will settle down.  Hopefully very soon!


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: KE4DRN on April 26, 2013, 07:57:32 PM
hi,

The NRA is strong, no doubt about that, Gun Owners of America also is involved with Second Amendment issues.

The fact is there are more law abiding citizens, who the media tends to ignore, that own and use firearms lawfully and safely, and do not belong to the NRA or GOA, etc. and these citizens vote.

According to the Geneva-based Small Arms Survey – the leading source of international public information about firearms – the U.S. has the best-armed civilian population in the world, with an estimated 270 million total guns. That’s an average of 89 firearms for every 100 residents — far ahead of Yemen, which comes in second with about 55 firearms for every 100 people, or Switzerland, which is third with 46 guns for every 100 people.

73 james



Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on April 26, 2013, 08:18:21 PM
(NRA which is really controlled by gun lobby)

Well.....  And the 4.2 million or so DUES PAYING members.......  When the government stops making threats against honest gun owners, then things will settle down.  Hopefully very soon!

Enhanced background checks and closing loop holes at gun shows only hurts one thing, total guns sales/profits. The amount of "designer" guns on market today is scarey. Many did not even exist 10 ago. Sadly one day there may indeed be gun control but when it happens it will be because the amount of guns in wrong hands is out of control.  Logic would dictate that if you tighten checking today you might starve off tomorrows controls. As far as the 4.2 million, if the other 50 or 100 million want better checks the majority looses?


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: N0JI on April 26, 2013, 08:53:05 PM
Enhanced background checks and closing loop holes at gun shows only hurts one thing, total guns sales/profits. The amount of "designer" guns on market today is scarey. Many did not even exist 10 ago. Sadly one day there may indeed be gun control but when it happens it will be because the amount of guns in wrong hands is out of control.  Logic would dictate that if you tighten checking today you might starve off tomorrows controls. As far as the 4.2 million, if the other 50 or 100 million want better checks the majority looses?

I guess that the 700,000 amateur radio operators should just get ready to turn over their useful radio spectrum to the far larger number of people who would like to benefit from new and convenient electronic devices that need spectrum too?  Listening to some of the trash on repeaters and 14.313 leads me to believe that it would make sense to limit the amount of time that a transmitter can be active per day.  Lets say 15 minutes.  And a background check to purchase a transmitting device.  Maybe that would keep lids in check?  Heck, as hams we have absolutely NO Constitutional right to use the radio spectrum anyway..... 

I wouldn't want that to happen to hams any more than I want gun owners to be burdened with useless regulation that will have no effect whatsoever on criminals.

Not sure what a "designer" gun is.  My favorite designers are Samuel Colt and John Browning. :)


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: K8AXW on April 26, 2013, 09:22:20 PM
Ammo is loaded and sold to: 

1- Government (1.5 BILLION rounds) No palatable explanation why 70,000 government agents require an average of 1,600 rounds of ammo a year)

2 - Military.  No explanation needed here.

3 - Law Enforcement (all branches)

4 - Civilian

So you can see who's sucking hind tit here!

Consequently, hoarding is rampant.  As for why .22s are in such short supply..... it's a simple question of where the brass, powder and lead is needed..... .223, 9mm, 10mm, .40 and on down the line......which is driven by the previously mentioned demand.

Every ammo manufacturer in the country is operating 24/7 to fill orders.  Imported ammo is at a historical high.

During the past 6 months I have been told by EVERY gun store owner that I know; EVERY Wal-mart sporting goods clerk that I've talked to, that "Barrack Obama has been the greatest gun and ammo salesman they have ever had!"

Predictions that I have read indicate a loosening of demand will happen this fall. I don't believe this because the still hungry #4 Civilians will need to get caught up and will need to satisfy the fear of having this not ever happening to them again.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: KA1VF on April 27, 2013, 08:00:41 AM
I'm just a city dweller without an arsenal because there's just no place around here to use it,
but I've still got my Daisy BB gun, and I've managed to hoard 2400 Daisy BB's just in case!

     73,
          Bob


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: K8AXW on April 27, 2013, 08:19:19 AM
2400 ? Is THAT all?   ::)


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on April 27, 2013, 10:00:08 AM
Ammo is loaded and sold to: 

1- Government (1.5 BILLION rounds) No palatable explanation why 70,000 government agents require an average of 1,600 rounds of ammo a year)

2 - Military.  No explanation needed here.

3 - Law Enforcement (all branches)

4 - Civilian

So you can see who's sucking hind tit here!

Consequently, hoarding is rampant.  As for why .22s are in such short supply..... it's a simple question of where the brass, powder and lead is needed..... .223, 9mm, 10mm, .40 and on down the line......which is driven by the previously mentioned demand.

Every ammo manufacturer in the country is operating 24/7 to fill orders.  Imported ammo is at a historical high.

During the past 6 months I have been told by EVERY gun store owner that I know; EVERY Wal-mart sporting goods clerk that I've talked to, that "Barrack Obama has been the greatest gun and ammo salesman they have ever had!"

Predictions that I have read indicate a loosening of demand will happen this fall. I don't believe this because the still hungry #4 Civilians will need to get caught up and will need to satisfy the fear of having this not ever happening to them again.

You can blame the extreme right for gun and ammo sales. Ever presidential election they wave flag and talk god and guns and spread fear through those easily swayed. While I own several guns, none are assault or designer type guns which are of no real sporting value.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: N0YXB on April 27, 2013, 10:39:22 AM
Ammo is loaded and sold to: 

1- Government (1.5 BILLION rounds) No palatable explanation why 70,000 government agents require an average of 1,600 rounds of ammo a year)


I have a relative who is one of those government agents.  Since 9/11 there has been an emphasis on being well qualified with ones sidearm, so they shoot more.  These agents include the Air Marshals, DEA, ATF, etc., etc.  In addition they need ammo to perform their job.  We don't want them scrimping on ammo do we?  The media has made much ado about this.  Much ado about nothing in my opinion.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W1JKA on April 27, 2013, 11:07:06 AM
Re: KA1VF
      Collect all the BBs you can,there excellent reloads for 20 ga. shot gun shells which are very effective at close range.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: WN2C on April 27, 2013, 12:09:15 PM
In my life I have never seen such a gun and ammo craze. Special interests (NRA which is really controlled by gun lobby) is fueling media and media is causing consumer panic and hording. The result is the kind of supply and demand than suppliers love.

No, I think it Pres. Obama and Sen. Feinstein and other liberal do-gooders wanting to limit what law abiding Americans can own is what is causing the ammo shortage and the increase in gun sales and increase in NRA membership.  Same thing happened when Brady was talked about before it was passed.

Rick wn2c


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W1JKA on April 27, 2013, 12:54:35 PM
  Actually O'Drama Rama is a pretty slick dude,he not only can appease the anti gun faction with his rhetoric and attempts at anti gun legislation but at the same same time gives the economy a boost with increased gun/ammo sales and providing more jobs in the firearms industry,a win win situation for the guy.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on April 27, 2013, 01:02:32 PM
In my life I have never seen such a gun and ammo craze. Special interests (NRA which is really controlled by gun lobby) is fueling media and media is causing consumer panic and hording. The result is the kind of supply and demand than suppliers love.

No, I think it Pres. Obama and Sen. Feinstein and other liberal do-gooders wanting to limit what law abiding Americans can own is what is causing the ammo shortage and the increase in gun sales and increase in NRA membership.  Same thing happened when Brady was talked about before it was passed.

Rick wn2c

Not you can blame it on bush for not renewing assault weapons ban in 2004 and caving to industry. Obama merely wanted to renew that ban and I recall no problems getting non designer gun and ammo during that 10 year ban. It is shameful that kids were mowed down with a gun that Bush legalized in 2004 and would not of been built if ban had been renewed. How many more must die? The answer is not more guns or armed guards in schools. The battle is not about gun rights but rather about profit on  certain gun types.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W1JKA on April 27, 2013, 01:27:09 PM
   Does anybody wonder why homeowners will pay a $100.00 or more on home security devices or $500.00 or more on their automobile anti theft /security systems but balk at the possibility of having to pay an extra $15.00-20.00 a year real estate tax for extra school security for their children?A sad commentary on priorities.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: KK4APV on April 27, 2013, 02:59:55 PM
Ammo is loaded and sold to: 

1- Government (1.5 BILLION rounds) No palatable explanation why 70,000 government agents require an average of 1,600 rounds of ammo a year)


I have a relative who is one of those government agents.  Since 9/11 there has been an emphasis on being well qualified with ones sidearm, so they shoot more.  These agents include the Air Marshals, DEA, ATF, etc., etc.  In addition they need ammo to perform their job.  We don't want them scrimping on ammo do we?  The media has made much ado about this.  Much ado about nothing in my opinion.

Why are they shooting hollow rounds? *THAT'S* what they're buying in such fantastic numbers, and that is *NOT* what they should be using for target practice.

Last I heard, DHS had enough hollow-point bullets to put three bullets in every man, woman and child in the US.

THAT is a reason to be very frightened of this government.



Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: N0JI on April 27, 2013, 04:06:51 PM
Not you can blame it on bush for not renewing assault weapons ban in 2004 and caving to industry. Obama merely wanted to renew that ban and I recall no problems getting non designer gun and ammo during that 10 year ban. It is shameful that kids were mowed down with a gun that Bush legalized in 2004 and would not of been built if ban had been renewed. How many more must die? The answer is not more guns or armed guards in schools. The battle is not about gun rights but rather about profit on  certain gun types.

Congress would have needed to take action to renew the (ineffective, illogical) ban before Bush could have had anything to do with its demise.  And after gun owners made their voices heard in the 1996 elections, there wasn't much stomach for doing anything at all to extend the ban.  This is ALL about gun rights as the nearly universal consensus is that the first ban on cosmetic gun features and magazine capacity had no measurable effect on crime.  Blame bush for all the ills of the world if you like, but it is more healthy to live in the present.  I remember the parents of friends of mine in high school who had ulcers that they blamed on Nixon 20 years after he left office......  :o



Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W1JKA on April 27, 2013, 05:27:00 PM
Re: KK4APV
    "Why are they shooting hollow rounds?"  Hollow points will flatten on  impact so once the resulting sharp edge pancake like object penetrates the body cavity(man or beast)it will ricochet off bones and hard cartilage tearing through vital organs and arteries which is much more lethal than a solid bullet which may just lodge in muscle tissue or possibly stop inside or pass straight through without hitting a vital organ. You're right, solid rounds are for target practice thus the buy up and hoarding of hollow point ammo by all concerned parties.

 


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: KE4DRN on April 27, 2013, 05:47:37 PM
Nonsense,

Bush did not 'legalize' the AR15 in 2004, Colt introduced the civilian AR-15 in 1963.

Bush did not renew the 'assault rifle ban' because it had a sunset provision and Congress did not take action to renew it for Bush to sign or veto.

Criminals don't shop retail, they shop the black market, no questions asked, cash and carry,
this has zero impact on any gun show sales.

Those that want to ban the AR platform (Armalite Rifle, not 'assault rifle') have no idea that a common hunting rifle has
larger and more powerful cartridge.

FFL licensed dealers are required by law to use the NICS aka instant check for all sales, no exceptions unless they are
processing a transaction directly to another  FFL.

Yes I agree the loss of life should not have happened, however, the recent incident in Boston demonstrates that when somebody wants to attack and kill other citizens, they will find a way.

The two students who were responsible for the Columbine attacks used shotguns and constructed IED using propane tanks.
They violated many existing laws that law abiding citizens would never do.

74 james


Not you can blame it on bush for not renewing assault weapons ban in 2004 and caving to industry. Obama merely wanted to renew that ban and I recall no problems getting non designer gun and ammo during that 10 year ban. It is shameful that kids were mowed down with a gun that Bush legalized in 2004 and would not of been built if ban had been renewed. How many more must die? The answer is not more guns or armed guards in schools. The battle is not about gun rights but rather about profit on  certain gun types.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: WA2ASB on April 27, 2013, 08:18:11 PM
It isn't just the civilians, but the dealers as well.  I download inventory and prices from 5 distributors for a small low volume dealer who has to go through distributors because of not selling enough to be able to purchase directly from the manufacturers.  The dealers are grabbing anything they can get their hands on from the distributors.  Even the Talo guns, which are high end, are totally sold out.

We saw a little of this after Obama was elected in 2008, but nothing like now.  Of course we need stricter gun laws like they have in Chicago.  They don't have any crime there because of their strict laws.  Yeah right.  Go into any prison and ask the inmates; they are all for stricter gun laws.
.
However, I do take the blame for all of this: I was living in China when Obama was elected in 2008 and in India when he was elected in 2012.  I've got to stay in the country. ;D


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: K8AXW on April 27, 2013, 08:21:24 PM
YXB:  Yea, uh-huh..... there are approximately 70,000 armed government agents that require ammunition for practice and to carry.  

The 1.5 Billion rounds of HOLLOW POINT bullets the government is buying will give each agent 1,600 rounds a year to expend.  Something really stinks here.



Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on April 27, 2013, 08:30:14 PM
Re: KK4APV
    "Why are they shooting hollow rounds?"  Hollow points will flatten on  impact so once the resulting sharp edge pancake like object penetrates the body cavity(man or beast)it will ricochet off bones and hard cartilage tearing through vital organs and arteries which is much more lethal than a solid bullet which may just lodge in muscle tissue or possibly stop inside or pass straight through without hitting a vital organ. You're right, solid rounds are for target practice thus the buy up and hoarding of hollow point ammo by all concerned parties.

The mere presence of a hollow point does not always equate to explosive expansion or damage. It depends a lot on cartridge and there is a lot of hype too.  In a pistol rounds like a 357 they have been consistent with having good expansion and penetration because of velocity and energy and proven stoppers. As far as a solid bullet, it is its shape that determine its effectiveness. Round nose bullets common to auto loader pistols by design have poor stopping power. When police started carrying 9mm they found out how ineffective it was at times compared to a 38 or 357 with wadcutters. On a heavy person or with heavy clothes a HP that that works in a auto may not reach vitals.  The most effective and consistent design is a hard cast semi-wadcutter (flat nose bullet) It provide good disruption and penetration. They beauty of such rounds is that they also accurate too. You should always practice with same type/load ammo in gun as you plan to shoot for most consistent accuracy. (I do as pistols can be sensitive to it)  Such flat nose bullets are not possible 380, 9mm, 40sw, 45acp or like because they would not feed so they try hollow points with varying results. For those that carry in bear country for defense are far better off with bear pepper spray than a glock with a full clip because the spray will  stop them (even a very big one) while the glock could just make matters worse. It may wound it enough to die later after it cleans your clock.      


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on April 27, 2013, 08:37:38 PM
YXB:  Yea, uh-huh..... there are approximately 70,000 armed government agents that require ammunition for practice and to carry.  

The 1.5 Billion rounds of HOLLOW POINT bullets the government is buying will give each agent 1,600 rounds a year to expend.  Something really stinks here.



Mere drops in the bucket, it is panic buying that is causing problem not government needs. I was at store other day and over heard a couple of shooters say they had at least 1000 rounds each of 223/5.56mm put back and same with 9mm and wanting to double it.  When I talked to a worker at a Cabelas a while back he said he see a lot of same faces frequently buying ammo at limit then going through again or having wife buy too. This is why there is a shortage.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: KE4DRN on April 27, 2013, 09:30:01 PM
The reason DHS ordered mass quantities of hollow point ammo is because
they are using our money that is why.

Waste to train with hollow point ammo unless it is for qualifications.

I wish our elected officials would focus on our economy instead of more gun control that
criminals will not obey.

Some of the hoarders are selling their ammo at a nice profit.

These days you have to purchase a new rifle based on the ammo available on the shelves.

73 james


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: WA2ASB on April 27, 2013, 09:47:50 PM
OK, I'm a gun guy and my cousin is a retired FBI agent.  If you shoot ball ammunition in your gun, you don't know if it will function properly with hollow-point.  In other words: you have to ensure your gun will always work with the ammo you are carrying.

Before he retired, my cousin had to qualify 4 times a year with the gun he carried.  This meant some practice time.  He had over 50,000 rounds through his Sig Sauer before the frame cracked.  He then went to a Glock (and I disowned him).

I was shooting at Bass Pro Shops a few years back, but after 9/11.  There were two "African-Americans" (i.e. black) men there shooting.  They were shooting H&K pistols that were chambered in 40 S&W.  They shot a lot of rounds and were incredible.  I'd never seen two people shoot that well.  Being a racist, ( ;)) I wondered if they were drug dealers from south Dallas.  I mentioned my remarks to the range officer when I left, and I was told: "they had better be good - they are air-marshals".  That made me feel a lot better the next time I flew.  Never judge a book by its covers, and as I've learned over the years: never assume you know what you are talking about.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on April 27, 2013, 09:56:25 PM
OK, I'm a gun guy and my cousin is a retired FBI agent.  If you shoot ball ammunition in your gun, you don't know if it will function properly with hollow-point.  In other words: you have to ensure your gun will always work with the ammo you are carrying.

I have ALWAYS preferred a revolver over a auto loader because the never jam/misfed and when that one in a million misfire happens there is no action to clear to fire again.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: WA2ASB on April 27, 2013, 10:25:18 PM
W8JX, I'm with you and I never leave home without my S&W 360 in 357 Magnum.  However, your assumption that they never jam I've found to not be true.  I bought a used S&W 686-1 from a local dealer who had several, but the trigger on this particular one was so smooth.  I loved it as long as I was shooting 38 SPCL.  With 357 Magum you could not get through a single cylinder without the revolver locking up.  It turned out that the 357 Magnum rim expands more than the 38 SPCL.  There was a tiny burr right next to the firing pin hole that would lock everything up with the 357.  That is probably why the person sold it.  A few licks with a stone and the gun was fine.

The only problem I have with the 360 is there might be a moments hesitation before pulling the trigger.  I know it is going to really hurt.  I'd rather shoot the S&W 500.  The 360 is so light that the recoil is just brutal.

Again, you are right that the semi-autos will jam.  However, I don't know of a revolver that will carry 17 rounds of 9mm.  Before you answer, you are right: only one shot well placed will do the trick.



Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W1JKA on April 28, 2013, 03:32:14 AM
 I guess the best way to avoid an ammo shortage is to become a government agent.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on April 28, 2013, 07:06:07 AM
The only problem I have with the 360 is there might be a moments hesitation before pulling the trigger.  I know it is going to really hurt.  I'd rather shoot the S&W 500.  The 360 is so light that the recoil is just brutal.

Trigger "flinch" can be a problem. practice will over come. Maybe you should consider 38 special P+ loads to shoot for a while. Worst kicking hand gun I ever shoot was a 454 that was not ported. Its a real thumper. Most "uncomfortable" was a 18oz 44 specail bull dog.
Recoil is very sharp. S&W makes a compact 44mag out of something called skandium that weights about 20oz. I would take a pass on shooting it with a 44mag load.

Again, you are right that the semi-autos will jam.  However, I don't know of a revolver that will carry 17 rounds of 9mm.  Before you answer, you are right: only one shot well placed will do the trick.

Yes my view is if you cannot "sort it out" in a few shots you are poor short or have wrong gun and ammo. Each extra round you spray out of that 17 round clip increases the odds that you will hit someone or something that was not you intended target.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: K8AXW on April 28, 2013, 10:30:22 AM
Quote
Each extra round you spray out of that 17 round clip increases the odds that you will hit someone or something that was not you intended target.
 

While this is true in some cases, the 17 (15, 14, etc.) provides "maneuvering rounds."  Sometimes called, "keep their ##$%@$ heads down" while I find a better hole.

In this day and age of well armed drug dealers/distributors, nothing makes you feel more vulnerable than no cover and very limited ammo!  Certainly no place for wheelguns! (Revolvers and speed loaders)


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: KC8KTN on April 28, 2013, 11:02:34 AM
Having issues with ammo for my 40 caliber springfield armory. Can not find the ammo I would like.. Practice makes you a better shooter. This is hard to do when you cant find the ammo.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php?model=2

The xd subcompact 40 cal..  I have shot 7 boxes of ammo through this gun since  purchasing last summer not one jam.. Also got the license /permit to carry concealed . I can not find ammo for this gun locally. I should not be forced to go online and let the goverment know what I am purchasing..  What are the news agencies talking about background checks there are already background checks.. Enforce the laws that are curently on the books . We as a society do not need more laws just enforce correctly the one currently on the books...Just saying... Keeping it real...  Oh by the way I hate the saying  just saying and keeping it real just thought I would try it one time not I feel stupid... Just saying.....  Take Care and be safe...73s


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: KA4DPO on April 28, 2013, 11:09:54 AM
Ammo is loaded and sold to: 

1- Government (1.5 BILLION rounds) No palatable explanation why 70,000 government agents require an average of 1,600 rounds of ammo a year)

2 - Military.  No explanation needed here.

3 - Law Enforcement (all branches)

4 - Civilian

So you can see who's sucking hind tit here!

Consequently, hoarding is rampant.  As for why .22s are in such short supply..... it's a simple question of where the brass, powder and lead is needed..... .223, 9mm, 10mm, .40 and on down the line......which is driven by the previously mentioned demand.

Every ammo manufacturer in the country is operating 24/7 to fill orders.  Imported ammo is at a historical high.

During the past 6 months I have been told by EVERY gun store owner that I know; EVERY Wal-mart sporting goods clerk that I've talked to, that "Barrack Obama has been the greatest gun and ammo salesman they have ever had!"

Predictions that I have read indicate a loosening of demand will happen this fall. I don't believe this because the still hungry #4 Civilians will need to get caught up and will need to satisfy the fear of having this not ever happening to them again.

This is exactly the reason behind the shortages.  Homeland Security has contracted with the major ammo manufacturers for almost all of their production.  They are even buying ammunition through other agencies like the National Weather Service, National Institutes of Health, Housing and Urban Devrlopment, and the IRS.  The DHS is also buying .22 cal for training purposes (that is the official word anyway) and every other caliber.  Now why in the world would the Federal Government be buying 32 caliber?  Why would they buy 380 and 38 special?  The standard issue for all federal officers is either 9mm or Smith&Wesson .40 cal, both of which are in very short supply on the civilian market and very expensive if you can find them.

Just like the ATC delays attributed to furloghs, the ammunition shortage is a manufactured way to bring about back door gun control.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on April 28, 2013, 11:55:27 AM
While this is true in some cases, the 17 (15, 14, etc.) provides "maneuvering rounds."  Sometimes called, "keep their ##$%@$ heads down" while I find a better hole.

I like this calling wild shots "maneuvering rounds". In any situation you have to know where your shots are going. Too many Hollywood flicks.

In this day and age of well armed drug dealers/distributors, nothing makes you feel more vulnerable than no cover and very limited ammo!  Certainly no place for wheelguns! (Revolvers and speed loaders)

I would be more comfortable with decent wheel gun in a 357, 41 or 44 mag any day over a 9mm or 40 with a big clip. (nice thing about 357 is it can shoot 38's and a 44mag shoot 44 specials, 44 Russian and 44 Schofeilds to) Particularly when you get to 41 and 44magnums barriers you can hide behind for auto-loader will be defeated by magnums and if your target has body armor if that mag does not penetrate it it will hit them so hard they will be out of action from impact of hit. The new 327magnum is a excellent carry round in wheel gun. It has excellent accuracy, very high velocities and 357mag energy levels with reduced recoil. (it will also shoot 32 HR mag and 32 colt) Nice thing about higher velocities is that they shoot flatter and make hits at 50 yard and more easy in a accurate gun. Few realize that a good magnum wheel gun in good hands is effective well beyond 100 yards. Well beyond dependable effective range of the high capacity autos. If you ever are in your drug gang shoot out, you want a superior hand gun not a equal and the sound of a big magnum going off is intimidating too. If I needed more it would be a pump shotgun with buckshot, not a gun that shoots maneuvering round,  as it is VERY effective on man and beast.

As a foot note the secret service and some other key agencies use a 357sig round as a compromise as it provide 357mag velocity, range, accuracy and stopping power in a auto loader pistol.

I knew a guy having a big several hundred pound hog roast many years ago and wanted to show off his 45 autoloader too.  Shot it between eyes and close range and it went down instantly. Much to his surprise it got back up several seconds later really pissed off and running wild. They stopped it with one shot from a 30-30 after a few more 45 rounds did not work. When they dressed it out they found that the low velocity 45 round had turned/stopped on thick skull. True story.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on April 28, 2013, 11:59:31 AM


This is exactly the reason behind the shortages.  Homeland Security has contracted with the major ammo manufacturers for almost all of their production.  They are even buying ammunition through other agencies like the National Weather Service, National Institutes of Health, Housing and Urban Devrlopment, and the IRS.  The DHS is also buying .22 cal for training purposes (that is the official word anyway) and every other caliber.  Now why in the world would the Federal Government be buying 32 caliber?  Why would they buy 380 and 38 special?  The standard issue for all federal officers is either 9mm or Smith&Wesson .40 cal, both of which are in very short supply on the civilian market and very expensive if you can find them.

Just like the ATC delays attributed to furloghs, the ammunition shortage is a manufactured way to bring about back door gun control.

Do you believe donkeys fly too? Did DHS "contract" with people across US you come into ammo stores with shopping carts and spend 1000's on ammo? No. It is BS stories like this above that gets the easily swayed to buy into it and panic buy while gun makers and ammo manufactures laugh all the way to the bank.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: WA2ASB on April 28, 2013, 01:21:23 PM

Trigger "flinch" can be a problem. practice will over come. Maybe you should consider 38 special P+ loads to shoot for a while. Worst kicking hand gun I ever shoot was a 454 that was not ported. Its a real thumper. Most "uncomfortable" was a 18oz 44 specail bull dog.
Recoil is very sharp. S&W makes a compact 44mag out of something called skandium that weights about 20oz. I would take a pass on shooting it with a 44mag load.


Practice won't overcome when it is painful, it just makes it worse.  You are referring to the S&W 329PD with Scandium Alloy Frame/
Titanium Alloy Cylinder.  It isn't nearly as bad to shoot as the 360 because there is more contact with your hand.  To make matters worse on the 360, I added Crimson Trace grips which only comes part way down the back-strap.  It is not enjoyable to shoot even with 38 Spcl rounds.  However, I know it works and has a lot of stopping power unless you are facing a mama bear when you stepped between her and her cub.  Then you wish you had a Ruger Alaskan in 454 Casull.   :) 

I've never seen or shot the Charter Arms Bulldog, but if it is that light, I can imagine it wouldn't be fun to shoot either.  The weight is what really makes the difference.  Porting will help keep the muzzle down, but it doesn't lessen recoil.  A properly designed compensator will direct the gases back to the sides of the shooter, which effective pulls the gun away from you and does lessen the recoil.  Keep in mind that if you reduce the weight by 1/2 the recoil becomes 4 times as much.

I know this is thread drift, but when the 460XVR came out, I couldn't find ammo for it anywhere.  So my shooting buddy and I were shooting one with 454 Casull using the for lead designed compensator.  We got very good groups.  A year or so later when I was able to get some 460 S&W Magnum, we went to the range and got good groups, but they were low.  I asked an old and wise Range Officer why.  He smiled, rolled the cigar around in his mouth and explained.  We had the sights set for the recoil/muzzle rise of the 454 Casull.  By the time the bullet left, the barrel was rising.  The 460 S&W Magnum was coming out so much faster that the muzzle hadn't had time to rise as much.  It made sense, but not something I would have ever thought of on my own.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: KA4DPO on April 28, 2013, 01:42:23 PM


This is exactly the reason behind the shortages.  Homeland Security has contracted with the major ammo manufacturers for almost all of their production.  They are even buying ammunition through other agencies like the National Weather Service, National Institutes of Health, Housing and Urban Devrlopment, and the IRS.  The DHS is also buying .22 cal for training purposes (that is the official word anyway) and every other caliber.  Now why in the world would the Federal Government be buying 32 caliber?  Why would they buy 380 and 38 special?  The standard issue for all federal officers is either 9mm or Smith&Wesson .40 cal, both of which are in very short supply on the civilian market and very expensive if you can find them.

Just like the ATC delays attributed to furloghs, the ammunition shortage is a manufactured way to bring about back door gun control.

Do you believe donkeys fly too? Did DHS "contract" with people across US you come into ammo stores with shopping carts and spend 1000's on ammo? No. It is BS stories like this above that gets the easily swayed to buy into it and panic buy while gun makers and ammo manufactures laugh all the way to the bank.

I'll tell you right now the contracts are with Winchester, Remmington, Olin, Federal and the other large makers of ammunition including their subsidiaries. 

And the National Weather Service really did buy a couple of hundred thousand rounds of ammunition this year alone along with the other non-police agencies I mentioned who also purchase hundreds of thousands of rounds.  I'm not making this stuff up, the Senate is conducting an investigation because they are not buying the story comming out of DHS.  If that was not the case 9mm would be selling for 20 cents a round instead of 50 cents to almost a dollar a round for premium ammo and .22s would be plentiful at less than 10 cents per round all day long. 


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W1JKA on April 28, 2013, 04:59:01 PM
 My XYL has been reading these posts with great interest,she now figures she knows enough about calibers ,speed loaders,ballistics,trigger flinch,politics of supply and demand etc.to now qualify for her concealed weapons permit without shelling out $80.00 for the NRA sanctioned course.She has her eye on one of my 22 cal.revolvers with an ample supply of rat shot shells and wants me to trade even for her can of mace,helluva deal I think.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on April 28, 2013, 06:59:46 PM

Trigger "flinch" can be a problem. practice will over come. Maybe you should consider 38 special P+ loads to shoot for a while. Worst kicking hand gun I ever shoot was a 454 that was not ported. Its a real thumper. Most "uncomfortable" was a 18oz 44 specail bull dog.
Recoil is very sharp. S&W makes a compact 44mag out of something called skandium that weights about 20oz. I would take a pass on shooting it with a 44mag load.


Practice won't overcome when it is painful, it just makes it worse.  You are referring to the S&W 329PD with Scandium Alloy Frame/
Titanium Alloy Cylinder.  It isn't nearly as bad to shoot as the 360 because there is more contact with your hand.  To make matters worse on the 360, I added Crimson Trace grips which only comes part way down the back-strap.  It is not enjoyable to shoot even with 38 Spcl rounds.  However, I know it works and has a lot of stopping power unless you are facing a mama bear when you stepped between her and her cub.  Then you wish you had a Ruger Alaskan in 454 Casull.   :)  

I've never seen or shot the Charter Arms Bulldog, but if it is that light, I can imagine it wouldn't be fun to shoot either.  The weight is what really makes the difference.  Porting will help keep the muzzle down, but it doesn't lessen recoil.  A properly designed compensator will direct the gases back to the sides of the shooter, which effective pulls the gun away from you and does lessen the recoil.  Keep in mind that if you reduce the weight by 1/2 the recoil becomes 4 times as much.

I know this is thread drift, but when the 460XVR came out, I couldn't find ammo for it anywhere.  So my shooting buddy and I were shooting one with 454 Casull using the for lead designed compensator.  We got very good groups.  A year or so later when I was able to get some 460 S&W Magnum, we went to the range and got good groups, but they were low.  I asked an old and wise Range Officer why.  He smiled, rolled the cigar around in his mouth and explained.  We had the sights set for the recoil/muzzle rise of the 454 Casull.  By the time the bullet left, the barrel was rising.  The 460 S&W Magnum was coming out so much faster that the muzzle hadn't had time to rise as much.  It made sense, but not something I would have ever thought of on my own.

Practice can overcome flinch. With a wheel gun have a friend randomly load a few rounds in cylinder and practice squeezing it off. It helps. Still would not shoot the smith 329 with a 44mag load. Weight and grip angle is all wrong. The old SW mountain 44 is lightest smith I would shoot. I never was found of grip angle of the Smith and liked the Ruger better. You want a angle that promotes the gun to roll up a bit to take some of bite out of it.

The 44 bulldog is a class act. Arguably the best pocket stopper out there with 240 grain flat nose semi wad cutters at about 900 fps that cause a lot of damage without even mushrooming.  They hit hard and have good sectional density (ratio of diameter to weight) which helps them penetrate well. They recoil is very sharp because of bullet weight and because 5 shot cylinder is set so low in frame relative to grip that there is little roll up on recoil to soften blow and it hits hand hard.

On 460S&W, I think it a better more versatile caliber than 500. Shoots flatter and hits harder at long range than 500. Plus can shoot 45 colt and 454 in a pinch. Personally thought I never cared for the guns themselves because they are too big and heavy. If I wanted a 50 I would go with a custom 500 Linebach ported and on a ruger super blackhawk frame. Lack of double action is not a problem with rounds of this class and gun would be far easier to carry. A 454 in non ported Ruger is a handful with a heavy load. Also old timer was correct about barrel time of round effecting point of impact. Been shooting 44 mag for close to 40 years and have long been aware of this. While the 44 is not longer king of the hill it is still a serious round especially when hand loaded with 300+ grain flat nose bullets. I once shot a 250 lb deer head on in chest at 75 yards and it came out rear ham with one of these loads. It went down on the spot. Plus something very few are aware of, Ruger 44's of all models have always had a longer cylinder that S&W and other brands which allows for safe custom loads with up to 25% more powder with bullets seated longer in case. You can really tell a difference shooting them. With a 10 inch bull barrel and a scope it is a solid 200 yard deer gun. (even further is you can gauge drop)  Many that shoot auto loader pistols do not begin to understand the accuracy that a good revolver is capable of.

We sure got off thread here.



Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: K8AXW on April 28, 2013, 08:22:09 PM
Quote
She has her eye on one of my 22 cal.revolvers with an ample supply of rat shot shells and wants me to trade even for her can of mace,helluva deal I think.

Yep!  If you're over 50 that's a hellova deal!   ::)


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W1JKA on April 29, 2013, 02:52:37 AM
Re:K8AXW
   Over 50?? Hell,if she had offered me that deal 41 years ago and knowing what I know now I would have taken it and run.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: K8AXW on April 29, 2013, 05:21:09 AM
LOLROFLMAO!  You and a million(s) others!!


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on May 01, 2013, 09:20:50 AM
I just read a 5 year old boy shot and killed his 2 year old sister in Kentucky with a 22 his dad bought him, a little cricket, made and marketed for little children. Is this because of the 5 year old's right to bear arms?  Guess he found ammo to give kid too. Where does it end?


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W1JKA on May 01, 2013, 01:13:50 PM
Re:W8JX
   The sad fact is that it will never end as long as humans and ANY type weapon exist.It all started when Neanderthal man figured out what lethal damage a rock or sharpened stick could do.Modern day man has only(supposedly) improved on these basic weapons.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on May 01, 2013, 03:02:57 PM
Re:W8JX
   The sad fact is that it will never end as long as humans and ANY type weapon exist.It all started when Neanderthal man figured out what lethal damage a rock or sharpened stick could do.Modern day man has only(supposedly) improved on these basic weapons.

True but these "accidents" are getting to be far more routine than even a few years ago. The more guns out there the more this is likely to happen. No easy answer you cannot depend on industry to police itself.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W1JKA on May 01, 2013, 04:55:46 PM
Re:W8JX
   Yes,Accidents,with guns or other will continue to happen,just a fact of life more so as you say due to today's trend of lack of proper parental guidance in their children's formative years.My father and probably yours taught me the proper use of firearms,tools,cars etc.all of which are accidents waiting to happen in untrained hands,I seldom see much of this type of mentoring these days.Most people are aware of certain areas in the country that had previously high rates of gun related problems have now declined as much as 72% for an obvious reason of which the Guns for Cash program was not.

   Industries' main purpose is production and profit,policing itself is usually the least of its priorities unless image or sales are compromised which for the current arms industry is certainly not the case.

   As far as the government is concerned " Gun Control " is just the politically correct term for CONTROL of GUNS by the government (a lot of people have forgotten Adolf the Hun)  which simply translates into COMPLETE CONTROL of its citizens.I believe the Silent Majority is sitting on the sidelines and just waiting to see which way the pendulum swings.

  You are correct,no easy answere.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: SWMAN on May 01, 2013, 05:51:47 PM
 To me GUN CONTROL means being able to hit your target.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W1JKA on May 01, 2013, 06:24:36 PM
Re:SWMAN

With that line of thinking does BIRTH CONTROL mean being able to shoot blank loads?




Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: SWMAN on May 01, 2013, 07:53:56 PM
Sure, why not !!


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: K0OD on May 02, 2013, 05:53:47 AM
I just read a 5 year old boy shot and killed his 2 year old sister in Kentucky with a 22 his dad bought him, a little cricket, made and marketed for little children. Is this because of the 5 year old's right to bear arms?  Guess he found ammo to give kid too. Where does it end?

"Parents had left rifle in a corner next to boy's BB gun and didn't realize it still had a shell in it" Guess the 5-year old just meant to "shoot her eye out."

Quote
Kathy Mosby... said the "whole community is behind the family," while Terry Riley, general manager of Don Franklin Auto, a car dealer, said, what happened "can happen to any of us."

Stephanie Robinson is a homemaker, and [husband] Sparks shoes horses..."

"can happen to any of us?"  My dad, who most definitely didn't shoe horses for a living, gave his kids gifts that included common sense. I eventually gave up asking him for a Red Ryder.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: W8JX on May 02, 2013, 07:07:34 AM
"Parents had left rifle in a corner next to boy's BB gun and didn't realize it still had a shell in it" Guess the 5-year old just meant to "shoot her eye out."

It was a single shot gun, it must be reloaded after being shot. It is simple enough to load that a 5 year old could do it. The point is this was no accident, a adult left it accessible and should be held accountable. Granted they suffered the loss of a child but until we start holding adults accountable this will only get worse over time. I never left a loaded gun even to this day and always stored ammo separately too. BTW 5 years old is young for a BB gun let alone a 22.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: K0OD on May 02, 2013, 07:40:02 AM
And a pink camo sniper rifle for lil' Susie's birthday:
http://www.ontargetgunsllc.com/uploads/3/0/2/6/3026097/4504148.jpg?436

When dad gives his 5-year old a firearm, it's an issue of rights and tradition. When he gives a BB gun, kept in "the corner," THAT's just plain moronic.


Title: RE: Still No Ammo
Post by: K8AXW on May 02, 2013, 08:23:01 AM
Quote
Yes,Accidents,with guns or other will continue to happen,just a fact of life more so as you say due to today's trend of lack of proper parental guidance in their children's formative years.My father and probably yours taught me the proper use of firearms,tools,cars etc.all of which are accidents waiting to happen in untrained hands,I seldom see much of this type of mentoring these days.Most people are aware of certain areas in the country that had previously high rates of gun related problems have now declined as much as 72% for an obvious reason of which the Guns for Cash program was not.

   Industries' main purpose is production and profit,policing itself is usually the least of its priorities unless image or sales are compromised which for the current arms industry is certainly not the case.

   As far as the government is concerned " Gun Control " is just the politically correct term for CONTROL of GUNS by the government (a lot of people have forgotten Adolf the Hun)  which simply translates into COMPLETE CONTROL of its citizens.I believe the Silent Majority is sitting on the sidelines and just waiting to see which way the pendulum swings.

  You are correct,no easy answere.

JKA:  You pretty well summed it up there.  As for these gun accidents, Ron White pretty well summed that up.  He said, "You can't fix stupid!"