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eHam Forums => Software Defined Radio => Topic started by: K9IUQ on May 23, 2013, 02:19:43 PM



Title: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K9IUQ on May 23, 2013, 02:19:43 PM
There will be NO Panafall on the 6000 series Smart SDR software. Unless you want to wait for a year or so. Flexradio CEO Mr. Youngblood promised the panafall will be released before the 1 year Free software window. Since Flexradio's past track record on delivering promises is very poor, one has to wonder what else is going to be missing in SmartSdr?

Cmon Flexradio, The Panafall is the major advantage of owning a Flexradio. You are going to make early adopters wait up to a year to get the Panafall? What a way to run a business. Yet more promises.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: W6UV on May 23, 2013, 02:40:18 PM
That really sucks! I wonder what their justification for this could be?


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: N9RO on May 23, 2013, 02:50:26 PM
Many of us have been waiting for the circus to begin.  Time to get your popcorn sit back and enjoy.  $7499 for this!

Tim,  N9RO


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K9IUQ on May 23, 2013, 03:16:42 PM
That really sucks! I wonder what their justification for this could be?

When has Flexradio needed justification for anything? They have a cult of Flexboy lemmings who will spin, make excuses and defend them no matter what.

Releasing SmartSdr without a Panafall would be like a Jap Radio manufacturer releasing a radio with analog readout, promising that they would upgrade the radio to Digital Readout within a year.....

FWIW you can read all about this fiasco on the Flexradio  reflectors.

Stan K9IUQ



Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: W6UV on May 23, 2013, 04:52:33 PM
FWIW you can read all about this fiasco on the Flexradio  reflectors.
Stan K9IUQ

Thanks for pointing me at the reflector, Stan. I needed my dose of comedy for today so I went and took a look. In addition to the threads on the Panafall issue, there's a thread about the 6700 at Visalia and one guy (a software guy with an alphabet soup of degrees after his name) said that the two most impressive pieces of software that he's seen recently are PowerSDR and the Toyota Prius control software.

LMAO! I drive a Prius and don't recall its software locking up while I'm driving down the freeway or the brakes responding with lag after I stomp on the pedal. PowerSDR, on the other hand...


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: NI0Z on May 23, 2013, 06:03:24 PM
FWIW you can read all about this fiasco on the Flexradio  reflectors.
Stan K9IUQ

LMAO! I drive a Prius and don't recall its software locking up while I'm driving down the freeway or the brakes responding with lag after I stomp on the pedal. PowerSDR, on the other hand...

Thanks for a good laugh! :)

I predicted they would release with lots of stuff missing.  I just got my Anan 100D today and other than the notch filters it all appears,to be there so far.  Lots of testing and playing to do yet.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K9ZW on May 23, 2013, 06:05:33 PM
There will be NO Panafall on the 6000 series Smart SDR software. Unless you want to wait for a year or so. Flexradio CEO Mr. Youngblood promised the panafall will be released before the 1 year Free software window. Since Flexradio's past track record on delivering promises is very poor, one has to wonder what else is going to be missing in SmartSdr?

Cmon Flexradio, The Panafall is the major advantage of owning a Flexradio. You are going to make early adopters wait up to a year to get the Panafall? What a way to run a business. Yet more promises.

Stan K9IUQ

Stan - you owe FlexRadio yet another apology.

The Beta Software and Initial Full Release will not have a Waterfall (yet).

Here is what they have said:

Quote
>I'm afraid you've gotten bad information. As VP of Software Development at
>FlexRadio, I can state with authority that not only will SmartSDR have a
>waterfall display, but that it is high on the priority list for us. This
>is the same position we have had since SmartSDR was conceived. While it is
>a high priority, we will not hold shipment of FLEX-6000 series radios for
>this feature. Thus, the initial release of SmartSDR will not likely
>include a waterfall mode. We do not have a timeline for release of this
>feature, but I fully expect it to come within the free software period for
>everyone that has purchased a 6000 series radio to this point. I hope this
>clears up any confusion surrounding this feature.
>
>
>Eric Wachsmann
>VP Software Development
>FlexRadio Systems
>*Tune in Excitementâ„¢*

Quote
I can state unequivocally that anyone who has already purchased a radio is
going to have waterfall before the end of their included software period.

Eric Wachsmann
VP Software Development
FlexRadio Systems
*Tune in Excitementâ„¢*

Quote
Absolutely, positively you will get waterfall WAY before the end of the
free software period. It is high on the priority list but I am sure you
would not want us to hold up shipments to add that one feature. After all,
this is a software defined radio so it can be completely upgraded with a
download. I am 100% confident that you will be more than pleased with what
you will get within the free period.

Gerald

Gerald Youngblood, K5SDR
President and CEO
FlexRadio Systems(TM)

I have no idea why you make up constant rubbish, rant on spreading half-truths and falsehoods.

You've no skin in the game, no Flex-6000 on order, no good intentions and yet are fixated on claiming things always remain the same.

If you had attended the last several FlexRadio Systems Dayton Banquets, and listened up, it was always clear that features would phase in.  Exactly which and when, that was in the air. 

How about since you won't get a SmartSDR Panadapter right from the get go that you cancel your pre-order and ask for a refund?

Oh, forgot you don't have any skin in the game and have made a near full time hobby of being as negative as possible. 

I hope you someday find something that makes you happy in this hobby.  Otherwise there are plenty of options in other hobbies, if they will have you in their ranks.

So sad old man...

73

Steve
K9ZW




Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K5TED on May 23, 2013, 06:20:46 PM
I wonder if there's a patent or open source issue with the waterfall code or concept when used in a thin client. Maybe they're working on making the waterfall run smoothly on a thin connection.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: SWL2002 on May 23, 2013, 06:30:03 PM
I wonder if there's a patent or open source issue with the waterfall code or concept when used in a thin client. Maybe they're working on making the waterfall run smoothly on a thin connection.

That is absolutely ridiculous.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K9IUQ on May 23, 2013, 06:34:04 PM

Stan - you owe FlexRadio yet another apology.

The Beta Software and Initial Full Release will not have a Waterfall (yet).

Here is what they have said:

>I'm afraid you've gotten bad information. As VP of Software Development at
>
While it is>a high priority, we will not hold shipment of FLEX-6000 series radios for
>this feature. Thus, the initial release of SmartSDR will not likely
>include a waterfall mode.
We do not have a timeline for release of this
>feature, but I fully expect it to come within the free software period for
>everyone that has purchased a 6000 series radio to this point.

I have no idea why you make up constant rubbish, rant on spreading half-truths and falsehoods.

So sad old man...

Why  do I owe Flexradio an apology? I have merely repeated what I read on Flexradio's own website. The series 6000 will not have a Panafall until they get around to programming one into SmartSDR. This could take up to a year. I realize that Flexers like yourself do not want  to see this info go public on a forum like eham. Instead you  would rather keep it secret from mainstream hams. Information like this makes the Early adopters look pretty stupid. Plunk down $1-2K deposit for a year and receive SmartSdr without  one of the most important features of a SDR - the Panafall.  Not to worry says Flexradio, we promise to get it working  before the Free Software period  is over - one year.

I  realize the truth hurts especially for those with "skin" in  the game. I would be pissed big time if I  had put down $1-2K deposit for a year and then received word that before I even  get the radio I will have to wait for a Panafall. You obviously believe the Flex mantra and feel  the need to spin anything that makes Flexradio look ridiculous. Actually Flexradio is SMART. They have thousands of deposit money from Flexers who have more $$ than  intelligence, and so far have not had to show anything for it.

Stan K9IUQ - Old Man yes, but hardly sad, you see I got rid of the Flex 5K P.O.S. and bought a frustration  free radio. Just call me  HAPPY Old Man.  ;) :D :D


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: NI0Z on May 23, 2013, 06:52:03 PM
The real question that's not being asked yet is how much of the overall development budget has been blown by delays?  The programmers still get paid if the code is late. We are never going to know the answer, however, often what happens when you have large over runs is something else has to get cut.  Wonder if anything is getting cut and if so, what?

If I had to guess they are way way over budget with these delays!  

I am very glad I don't have skin in that game!  I put mine in a different games and its in my shack now!  I got my radio for about the same amount as the deposit on the 6700.

I feel bad for the Flexers that are still waiting.  And they won't get a Panafall for a while.

What else are they not getting?



Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: N2MG on June 29, 2013, 04:57:59 AM
Panafall thread rebooted


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K9IUQ on June 29, 2013, 05:02:33 AM
Panafall thread rebooted

Thank you. I have new respect for eham moderation. Please keep eham moderation fair and consistent. eham users will have a much better experience.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: N4OI on June 29, 2013, 06:10:00 AM
The real question that's not being asked yet is how much of the overall development budget has been blown by delays?  The programmers still get paid if the code is late. We are never going to know the answer, however, often what happens when you have large over runs is something else has to get cut.  Wonder if anything is getting cut and if so, what?

If I had to guess they are way way over budget with these delays!  

I am very glad I don't have skin in that game!  I put mine in a different games and its in my shack now!  I got my radio for about the same amount as the deposit on the 6700.

I feel bad for the Flexers that are still waiting.  And they won't get a Panafall for a while.

What else are they not getting?



I recall seeing that Flex has some government business - providing hardware for recording anything that ever gets sent through the ether for future "analysis" or something...  That is a good thing if livelihood not totally dependent on limited high-end ham market.  Ten-Tec also has some diversification. And Elecraft just keeps hitting home runs. So I think the major US players will be around for us a while....

73 ES GOD BLESS U ES URS DE KEN N4OI :>)


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: NI0Z on June 29, 2013, 06:28:00 AM
I understand what you are saying, but if they have all that goverment work and these new radios are an offshoot of it how can there have been such a large miss and how could something so simple and basic as a waterfall display be missing still?

It's not adding up.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: W6UV on June 29, 2013, 09:12:05 AM
So I think the major US players will be around for us a while....

One thing I would like to see is Elecraft, Flex, and Ten-Tec selling via dealers (HRO, AES, etc.) so I have a chance to play with these rigs before buying. As things stand now, I either have to know someone with one of these rigs, or see them at a convention. When these vendors show up at a convention at all (Ten-Tec has never exhibited at the west coast conventions that I can recall), they usually don't have their rigs connected to a real antenna, which is really limiting.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: W6UV on June 29, 2013, 09:22:48 AM
Thank you. I have new respect for eham moderation. Please keep eham moderation fair and consistent. eham users will have a much better experience.

Yes, they did resurrect this thread, but I also noticed that they silently deleted several posts in the "FlexRadio Systems Flex-6700 SmartSDR Preview Editions Arriving" thread.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K9IUQ on June 29, 2013, 09:34:46 AM
I also noticed that they silently deleted several posts in the "FlexRadio Systems Flex-6700 SmartSDR Preview Editions Arriving" thread.

I think most of those posts deserved deletion. And not quite silently as N2MG sent me a heads up email on the deletions.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K9IUQ on June 29, 2013, 09:40:32 AM
One thing I would like to see is Elecraft, Flex, and Ten-Tec selling via dealers (HRO, AES, etc.)

Ten-Tec sold thru dealers at one time many years ago. It did not work too well for them as the Jap radios looked much better when compared to the Ten-Tec radios. Plus the Jap radios were much cheaper.  ;)

I want to see a Company like Anan have a USA Distributor and USA warranty network. Until they do they will never be truly competitive in the USA Ham market.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: SWL2002 on June 29, 2013, 09:47:24 AM
I understand what you are saying, but if they have all that goverment work and these new radios are an offshoot of it how can there have been such a large miss and how could something so simple and basic as a waterfall display be missing still?

It's not adding up.

EXACTY!  I keep hearing the nonsense about the 6000 series being an offshoot of their government projects.  But if you look at what Flex has delivered for the government it is a bunch of old QSD style receivers in a backplane, not a DDC based receiver.   Had this been an offshoot of their other projects, they would have had a base to work from as far as the hardware, firmware, and software and it would have not run late by more than two years and still counting.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K9IUQ on June 29, 2013, 09:56:56 AM
EXACTY!  I keep hearing the nonsense about the 6000 series being an offshoot of their government projects.  But if you look at what Flex has delivered for the government it is a bunch of old QSD style receivers in a backplane, not a DDC based receiver.   

There is a website that lists all government Contracts and how much $$ they are worth. I researched this late last year and found Flexradio has very little Government contracts. Flex also uses another business name for their commercial stuff. I do not recall that name but used it also for searching the Government contracts. If anyone has proof of Flexradio actually doing Government work please post it here. I found very little, but everyone knows I am biased..  :D :D

If one knows how dig around on the net I am sure more info on Flexradio Government projects can be found.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: W4HIJ on June 29, 2013, 12:05:48 PM
So I think the major US players will be around for us a while....

One thing I would like to see is Elecraft, Flex, and Ten-Tec selling via dealers (HRO, AES, etc.) so I have a chance to play with these rigs before buying. As things stand now, I either have to know someone with one of these rigs, or see them at a convention. When these vendors show up at a convention at all (Ten-Tec has never exhibited at the west coast conventions that I can recall), they usually don't have their rigs connected to a real antenna, which is really limiting.
Ten Tec used to sell radios at HRO when I worked there. I don't recall us ever having one on display though. Our showroom had a row of large desk that covered one wall of the store with every imaginable Japanese radio model you could think off displayed and there was a bank of switches where they could be hooked up to the A3-S on the roof. I had the opportunity to operate a lot of the latest and greatest and it's where I ended up getting my rather low opinion of the low to mid end Japanese radio RX performance. We only sold the Ten Tecs to people who came in specifically looking for them. There was one single shelf of the warehouse space devoted to them and we would pull them out and carry them to the customer in the showroom. Most would buy them sight unseen without even opening the carton before they left the store. It was a question of folks knowing exactly what they wanted before hand.  Not like someone coming in to compare a Kenwood against a Yaesu or an Icom. If HRO had Flex or Elecraft radios out side by side to compare with the "big three", they would not sell very many Japanese radios! Not based on RX performance anyway.
73,
Michael, W4HIJ


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K9IUQ on June 29, 2013, 12:25:04 PM
If HRO had Flex or Elecraft radios out side by side to compare with the "big three", they would not sell very many Japanese radios! Not based on RX performance anyway.

Nope. I compared my Flexradio 5K against a TS-590s in real world everyday operating side by side and the Flexradio did not out perform the Kenwood RX. In addition the Kenwood ran circles around the 5K in real world operation on the CW mode, which led me to believe only SSB ops should consider a Flexradio.

Considering that today there are many radios better than the TS-590s I would venture to guess the Flexradio 5K would not do any better against them. There are many Flex owners and Ex-Flex owners ( ;) :D ) on this forum that will say the same thing. In Real World ham operation the only real advantage the Flexradios have is the Panafall..

The Flexradio should be better in Contesting because it has better specs in crowded conditions. However because of the "Focus" problem no serious Contester would ever consider a Flexradio.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: W6UV on June 30, 2013, 09:09:36 AM
Considering that today there are many radios better than the TS-590s I would venture to guess the Flexradio 5K would not do any better against them. There are many Flex owners and Ex-Flex owners ( ;) :D ) on this forum that will say the same thing. In Real World ham operation the only real advantage the Flexradios have is the Panafall..

My FTdx-5000 certainly outperforms the Flex-5000 I previously owned. On CW it's no comparison; the FTdx-5000 is bullet-proof on CW.

And if I want panafall, all I need to do is spend $250 on an LP-PAN2, connect it to the IF output of the FTdx-5000, and I get the exact same panafall that Flex owners do.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: W4HIJ on June 30, 2013, 05:09:10 PM
Considering that today there are many radios better than the TS-590s I would venture to guess the Flexradio 5K would not do any better against them. There are many Flex owners and Ex-Flex owners ( ;) :D ) on this forum that will say the same thing. In Real World ham operation the only real advantage the Flexradios have is the Panafall..

My FTdx-5000 certainly outperforms the Flex-5000 I previously owned. On CW it's no comparison; the FTdx-5000 is bullet-proof on CW.

And if I want panafall, all I need to do is spend $250 on an LP-PAN2, connect it to the IF output of the FTdx-5000, and I get the exact same panafall that Flex owners do.
I would hope it would since believe it cost approximately twice what the 5K does. Wonder how it fare against one of the Flex 6000 series? Not saying which would win, I have no idea, just that price wise it would be a more appropriate comparison. My 5K beat my Kenwood TS-2000X easily.  I also know that in my real world experience my 1500 RX beats many radios I've owned and tried that are near or above it in price. That list would include the Kenwood 440, 450 and 480 radios, the Yaesu 450 and 897 and the Icom IC-706MKIIG.  If you are going to fairly compare radios  they need to be somewhat in the same price class. Of course, there's the rub, you have to be fair which doesn't suit many posters here.
Michael, W4HIJ


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: WD5GWY on June 30, 2013, 06:10:35 PM
Price alone is not always an indication of quality or performance.
Also, different technologies and designs are involved as well.
I've compared my Flex 1500 against different radios I have here
and it is very close in performance (receiver) to radios like a
Yaesu FT-1000MP MKV(with stock filters and analog dSP)
 ,TenTec Jupiter(amazing radio for it's price) and even a Kenwood
TS-480SAT. I have even compared it to a Kenwood TS-830s.
Filtering with the 1500 using PowerSDR(where the "filters" actually
reside) is really good. Sensitivity is darn good too. But, it does not
quite outshine all of the radios I mentioned. The FT-1000MP MKV and
the Jupiter both are slightly better(sensitive) compared to the 1500.
One thing that I've seen mentioned elsewhere is the bandscope helps
find stations to work. While Point and Click tuning is great, a weak signal
sometimes will not show clearly in PowerSDR. But, you can tune across the
band and still hear it. It just won't really show on the bandscope. So, you are
essentially doing what we've been doing with knob radios. Tuning around looking
for stations! (still my favorite way to look for stations to work!)
   Of all the radios I own, the MKV is still my favorite. I can listen to it for hours at
at time and not get tired from listening to it. I also have a couple of ICOM radios
( 706MKIIG & IC-7000) for mobile use. Both of those radios, while working quite
well, are really hard to listen to for any great length of time.
james
WD5GWY
 


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: WD5GWY on July 01, 2013, 07:11:21 AM
Did PowerSDR have a waterfall display with it's first version?
JAMES
WD5GWY


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K5TED on July 01, 2013, 11:07:21 AM
A more accurate thread title would be "No Panafall On SmartSDR Preview Edition".

Come to think of it, of the 6 HF transcievers I own, only one uses a software console featuring a waterfall.

In fact, most transcievers do not have an integrated waterfall.

We know of at least one ham here who owns a fine, top shelf, Yaesu rig which does not come with a stock waterfall.

Yet, all of these radios may be operated easily with no waterfall.

I don't always use the waterfall on PowerSDR. Sometimes I minimize PowerSDR and use HRD and a Griffin knob. Sometimes I just use HRD and the touchscreen.

It's a great function, but is not critical to the operation of the radio. All things considered, the waterfall is a nice function, but it doesn't represent the radio as a whole, nor does it enhance selectivity, sensitivity, or any other technical spec.

Considering the ease with which one might implement an external waterfall display temporarily while Flex finalizes the SmartSDR software, it seems this is much ado about very little of substance.

When the waterfall function is eventually added, what will be the next Flexradio grousing point?


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: NI0Z on July 01, 2013, 11:14:33 AM
You know, my own two cents is that we have now beat this to near death.  

Sure it was fun to pick at people having spent a few grand on deposits for un-released radios and then seeing we were apparently right to do so with how incomplete they ended up being as they started rolling them out, but its getting old now, at least for me anyways.  

And really in the end, for at least me, it was more about poking fun then anything serious.

Seriously, if you don't think you had fun poking coming at you for spending money and defending a not yet for sale radio that nobody had really used or seen, I can't help you.  You have to figure that one out on your own.

More reports are coming out from various hams as the radios ship and it sounds like more and more of the radios are functioning each day so I think we will eventually get someone non biased to provide the real skinny on them.

Oh, one more poke, lol, even WebSDR has a waterfall display!  

Just joking!

Flexers, I am retired from Flex fun poking, you all have mostly been good sports.  Maybe you'll even get the last laugh!  

Enjoy the new radios which you certainly have earned [the good and the bad] for being on the pre-order list and I for one will continue watching to see how you are doing with them.

73!
NI0Z
Mark



Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: W4HIJ on July 01, 2013, 01:19:17 PM
Price alone is not always an indication of quality or performance.
Also, different technologies and designs are involved as well.
I've compared my Flex 1500 against different radios I have here
and it is very close in performance (receiver) to radios like a
Yaesu FT-1000MP MKV(with stock filters and analog dSP)
 ,TenTec Jupiter(amazing radio for it's price) and even a Kenwood
TS-480SAT. I have even compared it to a Kenwood TS-830s.
Filtering with the 1500 using PowerSDR(where the "filters" actually
reside) is really good. Sensitivity is darn good too. But, it does not
quite outshine all of the radios I mentioned. The FT-1000MP MKV and
the Jupiter both are slightly better(sensitive) compared to the 1500.
One thing that I've seen mentioned elsewhere is the bandscope helps
find stations to work. While Point and Click tuning is great, a weak signal
sometimes will not show clearly in PowerSDR. But, you can tune across the
band and still hear it. It just won't really show on the bandscope. So, you are
essentially doing what we've been doing with knob radios. Tuning around looking
for stations! (still my favorite way to look for stations to work!)
   Of all the radios I own, the MKV is still my favorite. I can listen to it for hours at
at time and not get tired from listening to it. I also have a couple of ICOM radios
( 706MKIIG & IC-7000) for mobile use. Both of those radios, while working quite
well, are really hard to listen to for any great length of time.
james
WD5GWY
 
One thing I put a big premium on  is "listening fatigue".  Every radio I listed in my last post with the exception of the TS-2000X I owned was uncomfortable to listen too after about an hour. I had developed a habit of operating in forty five minute shifts with  a break of fifteen to thirty minutes in between.  My 5K never gave me any fatigue issues when I had it and neither does my 1500. It's a joy to listen too and I've caught myself letting the hours sneak right past me while working contest. That never happened when using the lower end Japanese radios I've owned. My main point about the Japanese radios has always been that in order to get a decent and comfortable RX from them, you have to go up into their high end radios. You can't  spend less than couple of thousand on anything from "the big three" and expect to get anything more than a marginal RX. That's what makes radios like the Flex 1500 and the Elecraft KX-3 such amazing values.
73,
Michael, W4HIJ


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: SWL2002 on July 01, 2013, 03:06:24 PM
The Flex radios are easy to listen to for long periods due to lack of distortion, good AGC, and especially since your can adjust the AGC threshold easily with a slider.  This has a lot to do with PowerSDR.  IMO, the KX3 is NOT easy to listen to for long periods.  There is audio distortion unless you use headphones on an external speaker amp and it become tiring after a while.  The receive audio is too harsh and processed sounding for my tastes.



Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: ZENKI on July 05, 2013, 07:22:33 PM
Yeah its a real shame ham companies dont pay much attention the RX audio chain. 1 watt audio amplifiers with 30% distortion is the norm. Then they pay no attention to the
inband audio IMD ,and reducing all IMD products from the RX chain. Most of this IMD comes about because of  poor parts selection and generally poor engineering.

The K3 is another radio in point that is very fatiguing and noisy despite its upgrades. I had a  listen to  a Flex6000 and it does have a very pure clean low noise
audio chain.  They just ruined it by using a poor audio amplifier.  5 watt and 10 watt class A audio amp modules are readily available so why use a 1 watt mickey mouse toy
amplifier in such an expensive radio. I mean  high power low distortion cheap amplifier modules would probably only would have cost 1 dollar extra.

The Flex6000 would have been  a leading edge nice package if they packaged some good engineering into the box. However the compulsion to take the cheap, nasty and poor engineering road is quickly becoming apparent. The Flex6000 could have been a benchmark world class product but now looks like it will have all the failings of the typical amateur products already on the market.

What gets me is that there are so many individuals hams who know  about these products and their faults, They also know what hams really want. Yet at the same time the companies fail so miserably at doing their market research. Why are such glaringly obviously faults and features forgotten about if they in business wanting to make money? I sometimes just get the impression that many of the CEO's of these ham companies are very arrogant engineering types who think they know everything yet fail to get even the very basics right. Very disappointing.

I am sure  many hams would take the time and do market focused surveys if they were asked. I dont recall any ham transceiver company ever asking their customers what they really wanted. Thus just shows how out of touch they are with modern marketing principles and their willingness to understand their customers wants and needs

I am glad its not my money invested in these companies.



The Flex radios are easy to listen to for long periods due to lack of distortion, good AGC, and especially since your can adjust the AGC threshold easily with a slider.  This has a lot to do with PowerSDR.  IMO, the KX3 is NOT easy to listen to for long periods.  There is audio distortion unless you use headphones on an external speaker amp and it become tiring after a while.  The receive audio is too harsh and processed sounding for my tastes.




Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: CHOKEOLOKO on July 08, 2013, 09:51:05 PM
tl;dr

Elecraft kinda did the same thing with the KX3. In its early days it was missing promised onboard features. Since then there have been tons of bugfixes and feature additions. Since you know what your getting into there is no reason to get angry.

There are other radios that have the ability to do panadapter/waterfall. Go buy one of them.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: KE7TMA on July 08, 2013, 11:36:17 PM
So I think the major US players will be around for us a while....

One thing I would like to see is Elecraft, Flex, and Ten-Tec selling via dealers (HRO, AES, etc.) so I have a chance to play with these rigs before buying. As things stand now, I either have to know someone with one of these rigs, or see them at a convention. When these vendors show up at a convention at all (Ten-Tec has never exhibited at the west coast conventions that I can recall), they usually don't have their rigs connected to a real antenna, which is really limiting.

I think it's refreshing that they have cut the middlemen out of the equation.  Middlemen are a millstone on the neck of society.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: W6UV on July 11, 2013, 04:23:55 PM
I think it's refreshing that they have cut the middlemen out of the equation.  Middlemen are a millstone on the neck of society.

But it makes it very difficult to see and try out one of their products before buying.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K1ZJH on July 13, 2013, 09:42:03 AM
I believe Ten Tec gives a 30 day trial period. Radio can be returned if you don't like it.  Several minutes in a dealership isn't enough time to fully evaluate any decent product.

Pete


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: W6UV on July 15, 2013, 02:40:51 PM
I believe Ten Tec gives a 30 day trial period. Radio can be returned if you don't like it. 

That's just fine if you never intend to buy anything from Ten Tec again. I've heard of people being black listed by them for returning something and invoking the 30 day trial period return policy.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: N4OI on July 16, 2013, 04:11:29 AM
I believe Ten Tec gives a 30 day trial period. Radio can be returned if you don't like it. 

That's just fine if you never intend to buy anything from Ten Tec again. I've heard of people being black listed by them for returning something and invoking the 30 day trial period return policy.

I would have to experience it personally before I ever believed that rumor about the folks at TenTec!

73  ;D


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: N3HFS on July 16, 2013, 04:32:14 AM
Here's a 2005 thread about the purported Ten-Ten black list:

http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=6030.0


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: KE7TMA on July 16, 2013, 06:12:05 PM
I think it's refreshing that they have cut the middlemen out of the equation.  Middlemen are a millstone on the neck of society.

But it makes it very difficult to see and try out one of their products before buying.

I think if they offered their rigs at retail prices they'd cost 2x as much...


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: K9IUQ on July 17, 2013, 05:13:26 AM
I think if they offered their rigs at retail prices they'd cost 2x as much...

TT radios are already non-competitive in price. If Ten-Tec had their radios in retail stores where hams could pop the top and peek inside they would sell no radios. Jap build quality is immensely superior to anything TT makes. Also TT radios are quirky and that is being nice.  ;) TT performance is fine.

I once looked inside my friends TT Orion II. I asked him is that all there is? A huge radio with a lot of empty space..

Stan K9IUQ



Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: W6UV on July 17, 2013, 08:53:39 PM
If Ten-Tec had their radios in retail stores where hams could pop the top and peek inside they would sell no radios. Jap build quality is immensely superior to anything TT makes.

I had an Omni-VI years ago and the circuit boards had unplated copper traces and no solder mask. They looked like something like someone made in their kitchen sink.


Title: RE: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series
Post by: N4OI on July 18, 2013, 04:14:14 AM
Here's a 2005 thread about the purported Ten-Ten black list:

http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=6030.0

Thanks for the URL.  I read the thread.  Confirmed my opinion of Ten-Tec as a "straight-talking" company that uses good judgement when dealing with customers.  By the way, their new model 506 Rebel open-source QRP transceiver is real innovation.   Reading the group discussions, it is quickly catching on with those who want to experiment with programming their own SDRs (getting back to the OP here).  This is the kind of ham radio gear that could bring an influx of new, younger hams into the hobby.... and with a huge shout-out to the folks at Ten-Tec!

73  ;D