eHam

eHam Forums => Antenna Restrictions => Topic started by: K0JEG on June 03, 2013, 06:12:17 AM



Title: Rant
Post by: K0JEG on June 03, 2013, 06:12:17 AM
NO ANTENNAS!

OK to have yappy out of control dogs that bark at everything that moves

OK to pull the muffler on your "hog" and rev it up at 8:00 on Sunday morning

OK to park your boat on the street for a month

OK to let your cat wonder the neighborhood leaving dead birds and other "presents" on the neighbor's property

Now, for the most part, I don't care about any of that. But it really feels like I'm being singled out for my hobby, while everyone else seems to get a pass. No specific rules in the covenants about straight pipe Harleys, yet very specific (several paragraphs) rules covering antennas. I'm not saying it's worthy of a sit in or a march on Washington, but when I get messages from international hams on Goggle+ asking why I put antennas in the attic (in countries that are less "free" than the US), it really makes me wonder...

<rant off>


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W1JKA on June 03, 2013, 07:08:11 AM
Easy solution:

Buy a new Harley fully equipped with a ManPac HF radio and whoop antenna along with a cheap blue tarp for inclement weather,get the optional small bike trailer which will hold an Avon inflatable dingy.

Buy a small yappie alarm dog/pet and keep hooked to your Harley for theft deterence.

Get a free kitten from the humane shelter and teach it to shit on other peoples property. ;)


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: KH6AQ on June 03, 2013, 08:12:03 AM
I bet your CC&Rs don't prohibit mobile antennas. Some hams mount a screwdriver antenna on the car, park it in the driveway, and run the coax and control cable into the house. I have used a similar setup and it can work well on 40-10 meters.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K5LXP on June 03, 2013, 11:05:30 AM
Some hams mount a screwdriver antenna on the car, park it in the driveway, and run the coax and control cable into the house.

Why stop there.  Use one of those mobile tower trailers like the one holding up the SteppIR beam at Dayton.


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: KB2WIG on June 03, 2013, 11:33:52 AM
A " rip off" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki
Slowdown Rulebook slowdown Another form of slowdown is known as the rulebook slowdown. This refers to the "rule books" that govern workers' actions, usually either for safety or quality purposes. In practice, many rules are loosely interpreted in the interest of efficiency. A union seeking to employ a slowdown tactic may take advantage of these common rule oversights by having workers "work to rule," obeying each and every rule to the fullest extent, which consequently will greatly reduce productivity.. ... For instance, many subways are required to keep doors open for a certain amount of time at each stop, whereas in practice doors are often closed sooner. Likewise, a bus driver typically may take the same liberties with traffic law that drivers do, and are often overloaded with passengers, whilst an experienced pilot can safely fly in some inclement weather. In a "rule-book" slowdown, the bus driver may drive more slowly and conservatively and with a proper passenger load, while the pilot may refuse to fly in mildly inclement weather.   """


If you have the time or the money and like to fight.... Find out what the local 'rules' are, make sure that you don't break them, and start to report, on a daily basis the infractions that you find - Like they say to voters in Chicago, early and often. And, the most important (this is where the money comes in), talk to an attorney. Find one that deals with contract law and HOas. You could try to get elected to the HOA Board. Have you asked fer an antenna?

KLC



Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K7JQ on June 03, 2013, 09:03:36 PM
I agree....CC&R's with NO ANTENNAS are a bummer. I don't understand why at least "reasonable accomodation", such as a multi-band vertical or similar should be allowed in an HOA community. HOWEVER, when you purchased the house, you signed off on the CC&R's. You signed a private contract between yourself and the builder/community to abide by the provisions of the CC&R's. With all due respect, you have no one to blame but yourself. Complaining about it after the fact is an exercise in futility. I feel your pain, as I also live in an antenna restricted community. However, I read the CC&R's, bought the house with knowledge of the restriction, and still operate using stealth antennas with satisfactory results. Where there's a will, there's a way. 


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: KH6DC on June 04, 2013, 12:24:40 AM
Use those yapper dogs as traps on a vertical and run legal limit through them see if your signal improves  :D

I hear ya, I'm in the same boat but knew about the HOA antenna restrictions - no ham antenna greater than 9 feet high and I have to apply for variance.  I have a zero five 29 ft multiband vertical on a fold over mount.  When in use (usually in the evening) it goes up and early morning before work I drop it.  Sometimes it's up all weekend.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K0JEG on June 04, 2013, 05:57:04 AM
I agree....CC&R's with NO ANTENNAS are a bummer. I don't understand why at least "reasonable accomodation", such as a multi-band vertical or similar should be allowed in an HOA community. HOWEVER, when you purchased the house, you signed off on the CC&R's. You signed a private contract between yourself and the builder/community to abide by the provisions of the CC&R's. With all due respect, you have no one to blame but yourself. Complaining about it after the fact is an exercise in futility. I feel your pain, as I also live in an antenna restricted community. However, I read the CC&R's, bought the house with knowledge of the restriction, and still operate using stealth antennas with satisfactory results. Where there's a will, there's a way. 

Actually, like I said, there are several paragraphs concerning antennas, including number, placement and height. Mostly geared to satellite dishes, but nothing specifically against other antennas. And I don't live in an area covered by an HOA, but the whole community is covered by covenants. It's unincorporated land, so there's no "government" as in a normal town. That's actually not a bad thing, but in order to get basic functions of a government we all had to sign  the contract. Other neighborhoods in the community do have very active HOAs (and more services covered by the community too), and I am rolling the dice to some extent. I put up a weather station a few weeks ago and am waiting to see if there's any fallout. It's 15' up in the back yard and not visible from the street. There's nothing in the rules about weather stations, so I'm sure there's not much they can do about it. HOWEVER, I also have a HyGain 18' vertical that is every bit as impossible to see from the street, that I'm willing to paint camo colors if necessary, but because it's an antenna technically I'll have to get permission from the architectural committee.

Hmmm. Maybe if I plop the weather station on top of the antenna and call it a mast...


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K0JEG on June 04, 2013, 06:13:38 AM
Thanks for the support guys. I know all the ways to get around the rules, I just wonder why so many rules specifically for antennas and few to none for everyone else's hobby.

Of course, out my back window I have a large electrical transmission line (about 12 insulators each on 3 phases). The way the sun is hitting the cables just now it looks downright beautiful to me (although it does destroy 80M). But considering the number of people who think they cause cancer and are an eyesore I guess I'm an oddball.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: KA8VIT on June 06, 2013, 04:47:40 AM
What I don't understand is, why a ham, would buy a place where they know they have CCRs, sign an agreement, and then get upset when they can't put up an antenna ?

73 - Bill KA8VIT


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W1AJO on June 06, 2013, 06:04:30 AM
What I don't understand is, why a ham, would buy a place where they know they have CCRs, sign an agreement, and then get upset when they can't put up an antenna ?

73 - Bill KA8VIT


Because often there are no alternatives.  EVERY new sub-divison since at least 1995 (and probabbly earlier) around Newnan GA has CCRs & HOAs.  There are no HOA free new homes in Newnan GA.

I had less than 6 weeks to move my family to Georgia from Florida when I was deployed to Iraq in 2007 for a year.  No time to find land that wasn't under CCRs and build a new home. 


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K0JEG on June 06, 2013, 06:07:26 AM
What I don't understand is, why a ham, would buy a place where they know they have CCRs, sign an agreement, and then get upset when they can't put up an antenna ?

73 - Bill KA8VIT


Because there's more to life than ham radio, at least for some of us.

And I can put up an antenna, but it has to meet the approval of the architectural committee. Because I have neither the funds nor the inclination to put up a 100' tower and a 3 el beam I should have no problem meeting the committee's (and agreement's) requirements. I just want to complain to a (reasonably) friendly ear over the covenants that say nothing about parking your party barge on the street all month, while including very specific (and sometimes ignored in the case of satellite dishes) rules about placement and visibility of antennas in the community.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: KA8VIT on June 06, 2013, 09:05:39 AM
I understand there are other things to life, or that we sometime have to move in a short period of time.

But you willingly made the agreement !

73 - Bill KA8VIT


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K1WJ on June 07, 2013, 08:10:09 AM
I moved to Arizona just over 2 years ago, HOA houses were the best so that is were we moved in, I have 3 thin low elevated verticals on the side of the house 10m,20m&40m & a 2m/440 jpole. Making contacts & on the air, no word from HOA yet & hope not to hear from them, bottom line is, I will always have some form of antennas regardless of what they do or say......They we never stop me....73 K1WJ


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: WE0Z on June 08, 2013, 04:31:22 AM
The real question to pose is why does a ham buy property or move into a domicile that has antenna restrictions? Every house I ever bought the first question to be answered by my agent was "does this property have any antenna i attached to it?" and if it does I am not interested.
I read these complaints often on the boards about covenants against antennas and it puzzles me that one would consider this kind of permant property purchase knowing in advance that you will NOT be able to pursue the hobby to it's fullest!


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W1AJO on June 08, 2013, 10:05:57 AM
The real question to pose is why does a ham buy property or move into a domicile that has antenna restrictions? Every house I ever bought the first question to be answered by my agent was "does this property have any antenna i attached to it?" and if it does I am not interested.
I read these complaints often on the boards about covenants against antennas and it puzzles me that one would consider this kind of permant property purchase knowing in advance that you will NOT be able to pursue the hobby to it's fullest!

As I posted 5 posts up:

Because often there are no alternatives.  EVERY new sub-divison since at least 1995 (and probabbly earlier) around Newnan GA has CCRs & HOAs.  There are no HOA free new homes in Newnan GA.

I had less than 6 weeks to move my family to Georgia from Florida when I was deployed to Iraq in 2007 for a year.  No time to find land that wasn't under CCRs and build a new home. 


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: AA4PB on June 08, 2013, 10:25:59 AM
Not only that, but asking your agent if the property has any antenna restrictions that would apply to your potential ham antenna is like asking a used car salesman if the car you are about to buy from him has any maintenance issues.  ;)


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W6UV on June 08, 2013, 11:12:54 AM
I had less than 6 weeks to move my family to Georgia from Florida when I was deployed to Iraq in 2007 for a year.  No time to find land that wasn't under CCRs and build a new home. 

Then you are a rare exception. Very few people need to make housing decisions on the spur of the moment. Most people have the luxury of taking months to find a new place. On my last move, I was looking at properties for probably five months before I found what I was looking for.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W6UV on June 08, 2013, 11:19:44 AM
Not only that, but asking your agent if the property has any antenna restrictions that would apply to your potential ham antenna is like asking a used car salesman if the car you are about to buy from him has any maintenance issues.  ;)

The solution to this is to insist on a clause in the purchase contract that the property is free of any CC&R restrictions or zoning issues that would preclude erection of a tower and/or antenna. Once this is in the contract, you can back out of the sale if you discover such a restriction does indeed exist. A realtor cannot hide potential issues when you have such a provision clearly spelled out in the contract.

If you do this, you then need to do your due diligence by researching the property to make sure that no restrictions are in effect. The contract clause is there primarily to give you time to do this. You could, of course, do this research before you agree to buy the property, but then there's the possibility that someone else may snatch it up out from under you.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: AA4PB on June 08, 2013, 11:52:34 AM
Yes, you can back out of the sale BEFORE you go to closing. However, once you close it is yours.

I've been through the "pressure cooker" of having to find a new house in a limited amount of time in order to be ready for a company move. It's not easy. Considerations other than my hobby included commute distance for my wife and I, quality of schools for the kids, distance to the schools (one hobby friendly property would have require a 1 hour bus ride each way for the kids), distance to shopping, etc. For many people, ham radio is a hobby and considerations for the rest of the family come first. The idea that "its your own fault if you have antenna restrictions" just doesn't cut it any more.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: AC7DX on June 10, 2013, 12:03:01 PM
yes..lets blame everyone else for you having antenna restrictions


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W1JKA on June 10, 2013, 04:36:09 PM
I'm always impressed with the folks that have lived in HOA/CCR housing for years and THEN get into ham radio.I don't see them moving out and they still get on the air.Where there is a will there is a way as prooven in many of the back posts of this very issue.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K2GWK on June 11, 2013, 10:01:44 AM
The real question to pose is why does a ham buy property or move into a domicile that has antenna restrictions? Every house I ever bought the first question to be answered by my agent was "does this property have any antenna i attached to it?" and if it does I am not interested.
I read these complaints often on the boards about covenants against antennas and it puzzles me that one would consider this kind of permant property purchase knowing in advance that you will NOT be able to pursue the hobby to it's fullest!

You must not have kids or a family because when we purchased our houses the first thing I considered was if the neighbor was good for my family, was it safe, did it suit the kids and would my wife be happy. As much as I love it Ham Radio is only a hobby. My family's needs are first and foremost and if that meant moving into a neighbor with CCR's so be it.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W6UV on June 11, 2013, 04:44:36 PM
You must not have kids or a family because when we purchased our houses the first thing I considered was if the neighbor was good for my family, was it safe, did it suit the kids and would my wife be happy. As much as I love it Ham Radio is only a hobby. My family's needs are first and foremost and if that meant moving into a neighbor with CCR's so be it.

You seem to think that "CC&Rs" and "good, safe neighborhood" are synonymous. That's nonsense. I've seen plenty of neighborhoods that didn't have CC&Rs that were safe, with good neighbors, and in good school districts. I've also seen neighborhoods that did have CC&Rs that were home to druggies, hoodlums, and were in crappy school districts.

Good neighborhoods without antenna restrictions are out there, but you have to search them out -- the lazy approach doesn't work.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W3WN on June 13, 2013, 12:00:33 PM
NO ANTENNAS!

OK to have yappy out of control dogs that bark at everything that moves

OK to pull the muffler on your "hog" and rev it up at 8:00 on Sunday morning

OK to park your boat on the street for a month

OK to let your cat wonder the neighborhood leaving dead birds and other "presents" on the neighbor's property

Now, for the most part, I don't care about any of that. But it really feels like I'm being singled out for my hobby, while everyone else seems to get a pass. No specific rules in the covenants about straight pipe Harleys, yet very specific (several paragraphs) rules covering antennas. I'm not saying it's worthy of a sit in or a march on Washington, but when I get messages from international hams on Goggle+ asking why I put antennas in the attic (in countries that are less "free" than the US), it really makes me wonder...

<rant off>
Can you put up a flag pole?

Yup.  Flag Pole Vertical.

A couple of years ago, I picked up one of those "portable" fiberglass flag poles that are sold for the RV community.  Finally had a chance to deploy it right before Memorial Day.  Looks great.  More importantly, since it's hollow inside, it's a piece of cake to run a #14 wire the length of it, simply feed at the base and add a few radials.  

The price has gone up a little since I picked mine up, although I'm sure there are other suppliers; here's some to consider:  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/22-ft-Telescopic-Fiberglass-Dlx-Flagpole-Collapsable-Pole-w-Chrome-Ball-Flag-/390439077220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae7fb8564
http://www.ebay.com/itm/22-fiberglass-flag-pole-/261082473578?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc9ba646a

But that's temporary... and it's main purpose was to make certain that the boss was OK with a flag pole in front of the "new" front deck.

I also have a small collection of 4 foot aluminum pole... formerly tent poles, military surplus.  There's quite a few guys selling them at a couple of bucks each at most larger hamfests.  I originally had a 24 foot flag pole made out of these, but it turned out to be (esthetically) too tall for the house.  I'm going to be using it as a "demo" antenna at N3SH Field Day, then will be taking out a few sections and permanently mount it in front of the house as a 16' or so "flag pole".  (I have one fiberglass section, which will be going into the ground -- with concrete -- as the base & bottom insulator, and it will have a "shield" of PVC pipe for weather-related purposes)

Rope, lanyard, and other misc. hardware are available for a few bucks from your local big box hardware store.    Total cost for the antenna will be under $30 when all is said & done (not including radial wires)

There's always a way.  You just have to be creative.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W6UV on June 13, 2013, 01:24:19 PM
There's always a way.  You just have to be creative.

Unfortunately it's a lot easier to complain than to get off your butt and do something.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W1AJO on June 13, 2013, 06:49:09 PM
You must not have kids or a family because when we purchased our houses the first thing I considered was if the neighbor was good for my family, was it safe, did it suit the kids and would my wife be happy. As much as I love it Ham Radio is only a hobby. My family's needs are first and foremost and if that meant moving into a neighbor with CCR's so be it.

You seem to think that "CC&Rs" and "good, safe neighborhood" are synonymous. That's nonsense. I've seen plenty of neighborhoods that didn't have CC&Rs that were safe, with good neighbors, and in good school districts. I've also seen neighborhoods that did have CC&Rs that were home to druggies, hoodlums, and were in crappy school districts.

Good neighborhoods without antenna restrictions are out there, but you have to search them out -- the lazy approach doesn't work.

Maybe in MARTINEZ, CA that is true but in Newnan GA it is not.  Unless you get land out in the county anywhere that you would live with your family has CCRs.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: KL3HY on June 14, 2013, 03:18:41 PM
You must not have kids or a family because when we purchased our houses the first thing I considered was if the neighbor was good for my family, was it safe, did it suit the kids and would my wife be happy. As much as I love it Ham Radio is only a hobby. My family's needs are first and foremost and if that meant moving into a neighbor with CCR's so be it.

You seem to think that "CC&Rs" and "good, safe neighborhood" are synonymous.

I didn't get that from what he wrote at all.  I think it's clear that a good, safe neighborhood is a higher priority to him than the existence of CC&Rs.  Nowhere do I see that he seems to equate the two.

Mike


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K1DA on June 15, 2013, 07:03:35 AM
A title search (needed when you BUY) will list the restrictions found on a piece of real estate. If you lease, the landlord may be unwilling to say, or you may be unwilling to ask.  I spoke to an individual recently whose landlord SAID there WERE restrictions when there were not (the don't blame ME trick).  Since there no restrictions in the lease, either,  the fellow got to put up an antenna. 


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: WD4HXG on June 16, 2013, 06:14:38 AM
I understand there are other things to life, or that we sometime have to move in a short period of time.

But you willingly made the agreement !

73 - Bill KA8VIT

Yep, willingly. If I do not sign off off on the restrictions then you will not sell to me. Perhaps grocers should not sell to buyers without buyers acceptance of restrictions on how the products are prepared and used?


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W6UV on June 16, 2013, 09:45:38 AM
I understand there are other things to life, or that we sometime have to move in a short period of time.

But you willingly made the agreement !

73 - Bill KA8VIT

Yep, willingly. If I do not sign off off on the restrictions then you will not sell to me. Perhaps grocers should not sell to buyers without buyers acceptance of restrictions on how the products are prepared and used?

Then go to a grocer that doesn't have those restrictions. Let the market decide.

Same with housing. If you don't like the restrictions, don't sign. Go find a place without restrictions. They are out there -- it just takes more effort to find them, even in an area that is seemingly all HOA-controlled.

The plain truth is that most people like CC&Rs because it sets minimum standards for a neighborhood and prevents your redneck neighbor from restoring his '68 Charger up on blocks on his front lawn or running a commercial pit bull breeding kennel in his backyard. The vast majority of homeowners are not hams (0.22%), so they couldn't care less about antenna restrictions because they don't affect them, and in fact they probably approve of them because they consider antennas unsightly. It's for this very reason that the FCC and congress are not going to do anything about antenna restrictions in CCRs -- they're going to cater to the 99.78% of the public who are not hams.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: G3RZP on June 16, 2013, 09:49:28 AM
My first house had a covenant against antennas, but apparently in UK law, only the person or corporation putting the covenant in place can enforce it. The estate was finished shortly after I moved in, the builder who had put the covenant in place wasn't interested any more - no more houses to sell there! - so I put a 25 foot pole up at the end of the garden in full view of everyone.

Ran a doublet quite happily, and had a 5 ele 2m beam up on the side of the house.

Five years later when we came to sell, it turned out the buyer was ham, so he bought the antennas. Some neighbours walking by saw the For Sale sign and asked if we'd sell the antennas - we had four households of hams within 200 feet of my house. They were all VHF types, though.....This house has no restrictions other than planning (zoning, I guess in US terms)

Provided you can find an excuse to put up a TV antenna for Ch 2, you can gamma match the boom successfully, and work 10, 12, 15 or maybe even 17 metres by suitable tuning. N4KG suggested that to me for using a 5 ele 20m beam on 40 some 30 years ago...


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W6UV on June 16, 2013, 10:35:25 AM
My first house had a covenant against antennas, but apparently in UK law, only the person or corporation putting the covenant in place can enforce it. The estate was finished shortly after I moved in, the builder who had put the covenant in place wasn't interested any more - no more houses to sell there! - so I put a 25 foot pole up at the end of the garden in full view of everyone

In many US jurisdictions, covenants can be enforced by anyone subject to them. For example, if you live in a neighborhood subject to CC&Rs that prohibit antennas, but without a homeowner's association, and you put up an antenna in contradiction to the CC&Rs, then any of your neighbors can sue you to enforce the restriction.

In this case, you can try putting up an antenna and take your changes. You may be okay if no one cares enough to take you to court. Any place that has an HOA is much more likely to enforce the restrictions. They often have nosy busybodies on the board who have made it their mission in life to enforce the rules to the letter.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K0JEG on June 16, 2013, 03:01:16 PM
As I said, the point of the rant wasn't to start yet another debate as to how important ham radio should be in a buying decision, but to point out that nearly everyone has some annoying hobby or eccentricity, but most covenant agreements don't specifically single them out.

A few weeks ago I put up a weather station, about 15' feet off the ground, in the back, hidden by the house and trees. I put it up as a test to see if there would be any pushback, and so far I haven't had any. So last week I went ahead and put up my Hygain AV-18AVQ that I picked up at a recent hamfest. It's painted black and green and blends in very well. It cannot be seen from the front of the house at all, and from the other side of the green space it is noticeable, but does not stand out (it might in the winter though). If I need to I can move it over a few feet and it will be nearly covered by a bush and low tree (which will become the support for a long wire if I have to take this one down, but it's only about 25' tall).

So far it's about the best HF antenna I've ever had up, at least for receiving. And the noise floor in this area is extremely low despite a high voltage transmission line nearby. We'll see over the next few weeks if someone says anything, but given some of the really bad dish installations around here (what is it about installers anyway?), I think I can make a good case for acceptance.

Yesterday I spent the day doing a dry run of our club's field day setup at one of the club members' homes. This is a high end gated community with severe restrictions on antennas, yet he has several well performing HF antennas all over his property (it helps he has a lot of trees and likely has a good lawyer, I'm sure). The fact that he uses a lot of painted surfaces and black wires helps hide them too.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K8LEA on June 29, 2013, 12:51:17 AM
Millenia ago (well, 1972), I moved into an apartment complex, and asked about antennas.

WHAT?!

Couldn't get that past management.  (I can't recall what was in the lease.)  All I needed was something on 2M for repeaters, so I ended up with a Ringo in the living room!  I probably could have put it out on the balcony, but that worked.  My fiance didn't appreciate that at all, but by the time we bought our first house, it was located so well v.s. the repeaters I wanted to hit that it didn't matter.  Next place ended up with a Ringo on the roof.  The second house had covenants against certain home-based businesses (like the pit bull breeding center  ;D ), but nothing special about antennas.

The joke being the first apartment.  At some point I happened to notice that somebody put up a 40' tower with a huge CB antenna on it.  He'd put it about 40' away from the apartment building, almost into some trees just outside the property line.  Line losses had to be hilarious, but it was impressive.  Never did find out how that happened.  I did find out where the pet restriction went - one of the owner's buddies moved in with a dog, and poof, we had dogs everwhere.  No problems with them, though, that I noticed, including a couple in my building.  (Little something or other across the hall would announce when folks down the block had visitors, but I got used to that.)

A buddy of mine (not a ham, and no dogs, but he did have a couple of cats) managed to get himself onto the HOA board, out of self-defense.  He had visions of somebody freaking out about the cats, or his Nissan "Z".  I haven't got the patience for that sort of thing....

Now, if you want to have some fun, try asking the HOA for permission to put in a firing range....

(The wife and I moved in to help take care of my mom in 2009.  She then decided to Winter in El Paso, and never bothered to come back.  I had a full-sized 160m dipole here before I moved out, and all kinds of trees.  The tower fell down, though, about 1980 - mom noticed that the tower base was an inch or two below the ground surface, filled it with peat moss & such, and some flowers.  Worked fine until the tower base rusted.  So, I have to put something up - the current antenna's about 20' high.  Meantime, I've got room for a nice 50 yard range, but the back yard slopes downward into a park, and neither the Park Department nor my neighbors would like the berm I'd have to put back there :D....)

'Course, where you get the ARRL involved is when you suddenly find that the HOA wants a new restriction, and won't grandfather your 100' tower....

Regards,

Stu K8LEA


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K2GWK on June 30, 2013, 11:02:07 AM
You must not have kids or a family because when we purchased our houses the first thing I considered was if the neighbor was good for my family, was it safe, did it suit the kids and would my wife be happy. As much as I love it Ham Radio is only a hobby. My family's needs are first and foremost and if that meant moving into a neighbor with CCR's so be it.

You seem to think that "CC&Rs" and "good, safe neighborhood" are synonymous. That's nonsense. I've seen plenty of neighborhoods that didn't have CC&Rs that were safe, with good neighbors, and in good school districts. I've also seen neighborhoods that did have CC&Rs that were home to druggies, hoodlums, and were in crappy school districts.

Good neighborhoods without antenna restrictions are out there, but you have to search them out -- the lazy approach doesn't work.

I don't know where you live but I have none of those problems in my subdivision. Duh....that's why I chose to move here. It is more important for me to have my family safe and happy than my amateur radio hobby. There are ways for me to get a signal out stealthily without a tower.

Even if I were permitted to have a tower I am not so sure I would put one up as I am happy with my setup the way things are. I don't begrudge anyone wanting a tower but if you can't you can't. Just get creative. When buying our home antennas were the last priority on my list but then again it was my choice and I don't bitch about it either.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K7CB on July 12, 2013, 10:10:04 AM
What I don't understand is, why a ham, would buy a place where they know they have CCRs, sign an agreement, and then get upset when they can't put up an antenna ?

73 - Bill KA8VIT


My question is - why should a HAM be forced to buy an old home that may or may not need work or buy something in the sticks increasing their commute time so he or she can enjoy their hobby?  I understand that these covenants are agreed to...but are they really?  Seems to me that more and more they're becoming forced upon you.  The house we bought has covenants banning antennas dating back to 1978 when the house was built.  I'm fortunate though - there has never been an HOA and the homes have changed hands so many times over the years that most people don't even know the covenants even exist as almost all of them are being violated.  I've had my VHF/UHF antenna and OCF dipole up at 40' for over 6 months and haven't heard a peep out of anyone.  So now it's time to work on putting the 40' tower up with the two element SteppIR Yagi.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: AC7DX on July 12, 2013, 01:38:51 PM
    
RE: Rant
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2013, 04:47:40 AM »
   
What I don't understand is, why a ham, would buy a place where they know they have CCRs, sign an agreement, and then get upset when they can't put up an antenna ?

73 - Bill KA8VIT
They just like to bitch and moan like some of the no coders did.
You would think they would know the rules before they move in...Dah!


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W5LZ on July 12, 2013, 11:52:42 PM
Quick and dirty answer... buy out the HOA.  Not all the property, just the HOA, assume control of it.  Make the rules you want to see.  Someone doesn't likeit?  Oh well, tell them they need to conform or else.  Same thing that's being to you isn't it?  Offer an 'exception' for the 'right' amount.  About the same thing as selling a 'permit', isn't it?  Control the 'game'!
 - Paul

Also, don't hold your breath...


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: AC7DX on July 13, 2013, 10:53:35 AM
Quick and dirty answer... buy out the HOA.  Not all the property, just the HOA, assume control of it.  Make the rules you want to see.  Someone doesn't likeit?  Oh well, tell them they need to conform or else.  Same thing that's being to you isn't it?  Offer an 'exception' for the 'right' amount.  About the same thing as selling a 'permit', isn't it?  Control the 'game'!
 - Paul

Also, don't hold your breath...


Better idea...dont move into one and then cry and moan and bitch. Buy somewhere else. >:(


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: AD5TD on July 13, 2013, 06:23:41 PM
I know you don't like it, but....

You bought it. 

Do some sneaky antenna or move.   It's just that simple.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: N3JBH on July 15, 2013, 05:22:32 PM
I don't think my Harley is loud any more ??? But then that might be why i am loosing my hearing too  ::)


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W7KKK on July 25, 2013, 09:55:50 AM
I bet your CC&Rs don't prohibit mobile antennas. Some hams mount a screwdriver antenna on the car, park it in the driveway, and run the coax and control cable into the house. I have used a similar setup and it can work well on 40-10 meters.

When my HOA questioned my application for a 33' vertical at ground level in my backyard I sent the guy that had approval authority a pix of a very tall vertical that somebody had mounted to the trailer hitch on his truck.
I told him that if they wanted to disapprove my 40 meter vertical I would proceed with the mobile application and that there was little they could do about that.
I got immediate approval for my vertical.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: N4UE on August 04, 2013, 07:19:48 AM
You can get a signed statement from the Realtor there are NO antenna restrictions, NO HOA, etc. I did.
I had a valid permit from the County Building Inspector giving me permission to erect all the towers I wanted.

I put up 2. My (rich) neighbors got together and sued me because they considered it an 'eyesore'.
I spent a LOT of $ on a Lawyer, won in court, but it was a moral victory only.
These 'neighbors' hated my wife and I SO much, we started getting death threats, she couldn't go outside to work in her flowers, you name it.
She wasn't willing to fight back and moved away. We had to sell the house at a huge (!!!) loss.

So, just because you think you are OK with regulations, just remember :
Anyone can sue Anyone for ANYTHING. If your opposition has more $ than you do, you lose.
Don't even ask about a countersuit, it just would have made a bad situation REALLY bad!

ron
N4UE


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W7KKK on August 04, 2013, 07:55:27 AM
While death threats?  I would have thought that it would be easy enough to set them up to have the county or city file charges against them?
When I put up my tower and being in Southeast Arizona the only county regulations were that if it were to fall it had to fall on my property.  I had acreage of time and that was not a problem.
The only problem I had was with the neighbor who crossed the fence into my property as I raised the tower with the beam in place and told me that it was ugly and that he does like looking at it.
I told him to haul his butt back on the other side of his fence and stay there and to not look in the direction of my beam if he did not like what it looked like.  I will also point out that this the same clown that came over to my property when I was assembling some aluminum tubing for another antenna project when if I first moved there and he started stumbling all over it damaging my tubing.  I educated his butt by telling him I was going to reorder the pieces he just bent and that he was going to pay for it or else, and he did.
As anyone can file a lawsuit but it's my understanding you can turn around and sue them in many states when you prevail for filing a frivolous lawsuit can recover.
Sometimes with neighbors it's important that you establish the pecking order in the neighborhood. ;)
When we moved into this HOA I applied for and received permission for my 33 foot vertical and I know for a fact after I erected it that the homeowners association received some complaints from neighbors but they defended my right to have the antenna as they have approved it and nothing more has been said to my knowledge.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W0MT on August 04, 2013, 07:56:09 AM
You can get a signed statement from the Realtor there are NO antenna restrictions, NO HOA, etc. I did.

ron
N4UE
Your signed statement is virtually worthless. Here are several reasons why.

CC&Rs create a legal requirement. A Realtor or agent has no power to excuse a homeowner from a legal requirement. If a Realtor or agent could excuse you from one legal requirement, then they could give you a signed statement saying you could distribute illegal drugs or do anything else illegal from your new home. Try explaining that to the judge at your trial.

You MIGHT have a civil cause of action against whoever gave you the signed statement given there are antenna restrictions. You could bring a cause of action for damages. That would be for the costs to you of not being able to have an antenna for your Ham radio activities. The problem here is how are you going to prove that not being able to engage in an activity for which you are not allowed to make any money has cost you any money.

The only benefit I see is that it might make the agent double check if the statement is true. If it turns out to be false you could possibly get the agent in hot water but that would not do anything to get you an antenna.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W7KKK on August 04, 2013, 08:05:14 AM
That realtor could go out of business tomorrow or file bankruptcy and where would that leave you?
I think the bottom line is that as a buyer you and you alone have the responsibility to check their requirements for the city/county/state that you live in.  Even then you may talk to somebody that does not realize what you want to erect and could still be in trouble.  I know of them when I checked on accounting rules in Southeast Arizona were a direct and my tower that I had to explain to several county employees that an amateur radio station was not a business.  And before I purchased the land to build my home on I sent a letter to the county asking specific questions and requiring specific answers before I would purchase the property. I think even after doing all of that the county could have come after me if they had made a mistake.
There is no such thing as an absolute in life. 


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: KJ7WC on November 25, 2013, 11:09:17 PM
Why stop there.  Use one of those mobile tower trailers like the one holding up the SteppIR beam at Dayton.


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

That thing is a riot, isn't it?! We borrowed it for field day in Seattle. Boy, my neighbors were scratching their heads when I had it parked in front of my house. :o)


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: N8YQX on November 27, 2013, 11:59:21 AM
The solution to this is to insist on a clause in the purchase contract that the property is free of any CC&R restrictions or zoning issues that would preclude erection of a tower and/or antenna. Once this is in the contract, you can back out of the sale if you discover such a restriction does indeed exist. A realtor cannot hide potential issues when you have such a provision clearly spelled out in the contract.

Part of my closing document required the seller to reveal all CC&R document by the close of the sale.  Now, my particular HOA does not have any antenna restrictions, but it does have a CC&R.  My seller did not produce any CC&R document at closing, and only provided the cost of the HOA fee.

Now, let's pretend that my CC&R does restrict antennas.  If the seller failed to reveal the CC&R document, and I was busted for my antenna down the line, can I hold the seller financially responsible, including the cost of fighting the HOA or the lien that HOA will place on my house?  Can I make the seller buy back the house?


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W6UV on November 27, 2013, 12:58:20 PM
Now, let's pretend that my CC&R does restrict antennas.  If the seller failed to reveal the CC&R document, and I was busted for my antenna down the line, can I hold the seller financially responsible, including the cost of fighting the HOA or the lien that HOA will place on my house?  Can I make the seller buy back the house?

Only a lawyer would be able to answer these questions with any degree of confidence.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K3WEC on November 27, 2013, 08:05:03 PM
Gimme a break.  Of course you can try to hold anyone responsible that you wish - the American way, huh?    Find a decent lawyer, throw down a $10K retainer  prep for $500/hr after that, and have at it.   You are responsible for complying with the covenants as owner of the property which is governed by same.   You bought it.  The previous owner has nothing to do with it.   

If you want to put up a tower or antenna or whatever, buy a house where there are no restrictions to your doing so.   Trying to sneak something in the back door and hoping you can threaten or sue the HOA or previous owner (gimme a break) into acceptance is pretty weak/laughable.    It's not that I think the covenants are good or right, but THEY EXIST and YOU KNEW IT when you bought it.   If I govern a subdivision in which each resident under covenant has to eat dookie each Tuesday night, and you buy a house in my subdivision, then you eat dookie every Tuesday night. 


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: W0MT on November 28, 2013, 12:02:32 PM
Some facts of life:
1. The owner of real property is subject to any CC&Rs even if that owner was somehow duped into believing that no CC&Rs existed.
2. It makes no difference if a sales contract or a side contract with a real estate agent or anyone else proclaims there are no CC&Rs–once closing has happened, go back and read 1 above.
3. A new owner may sue for money damages. However, someone needs to explain to me the money damages a Ham has for not being able to engage in an activity for which no money may be earned.
4. Voluntary actions taken by the Ham are not compensable. The Ham would not be able to recover punching a hole in the wall because the Ham is so mad. Same thing if the Ham elects to hire an attorney to sue the HOA, the real estate agent, or the previous owner. These are all actions the Ham elected to do.
5. The possibility of forcing the previous owner to buy back the property is as close to absolute zero as you can get.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: ACHANCESW on December 04, 2013, 09:54:32 AM
Is a portable antenna an option? One you just "crank up" when you are broadcasting and then take down when you are done.

If not, here is what I have learned from dealing with the HOA.

1. It cost money to take someone to court. If they dont have a lawyer on staff, I doubt it would ever get that far.

2. its a lien, so what. Can a HOA legally fine you? All mine could do was pay to have your property cleaned up and then place a lien for the amount. represent yourself and file a motion to have it removed every 30 days (see #1). In my state they only last 5 years and are then removed.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K1PJR on January 12, 2014, 03:16:56 AM
I have a Zero 5 vertical. Spray painted it with Rustoleuom camo paint. Deep forest green. Looks great.


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: VE3PP on January 12, 2014, 12:30:43 PM
Some hams mount a screwdriver antenna on the car, park it in the driveway, and run the coax and control cable into the house.

Why stop there.  Use one of those mobile tower trailers like the one holding up the SteppIR beam at Dayton.


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

Don't forget to hoist the flag to the top!


Title: RE: Rant
Post by: K9SRV on January 21, 2014, 05:52:40 PM
Just a thought. If there are more than a couple hams in a restricted community, why not
Get together over breakfast, go over a plan where you guys use some type of "outbuilding"
In a secluded back/ wooded section of the sub division and draw up some plans that would demonstrate
That no towers need be built, and that a couple of wires at 35-40 feet would suit your needs while
Keeping the visual impact to a mere negligibility!
You could pool your equipment, and present it as a club where all residents are encouraged to stop by
Bring their kids and LEARN! My opinion is CCAs are deathly afraid of towers and monster beams.
If a group gets together and requests a informational meeting with the board of directors, and present it as a
All are welcome, check out what we are about type of thing, you just may succeed! Make sure to bring a world map with prefixes and pins in the entities you have collectively worked then ask the members to show you a quicker way for their kids to learn geography, physics, math, sun activity, propagation etc...

The answer is, there is no better way to get kids to put down the ps3, or Wii, or iPhone or whatever the latest gizmos are. Also, bring a book or two by Cebik. These clowns most likely have no idea the history of ham radio, Tesla, Marconi, and their roles in helping defend our country, thru the use of radio....

Just My .02,
John
K9SRV