eHam

eHam Forums => Misc => Topic started by: W1JKA on June 12, 2013, 07:28:19 AM



Title: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: W1JKA on June 12, 2013, 07:28:19 AM
Latest news indicates there may be a small breach in the privacy of our use of cell phones and computers by certain special interest groups. So far I have heard no mention of info gathering from on air amateur radio stations.Apparently the hi-tech info gathering budget doesn't include funding for lo-tech RF info.I guess if you want secure/private communications today a mobile pirate station is the way to go.Speaking in tongues of course.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: K2GWK on June 12, 2013, 07:40:11 AM
What does it matter. Our conversations on the air are a matter of public record.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: W1JKA on June 12, 2013, 07:47:49 AM
True,but who is monitoring and sifting?


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: N3QE on June 12, 2013, 07:51:05 AM
Ham communications has always been available for monitoring by any/all governments - a very explicit agreement between amateurs and government, with broad restrictions/shutdowns in wartime. Also self-monitored by amateur societies as well (e.g. "OO postcards"). And, well, pretty much anybody with a radio.

Some of us would like it, if FCC did more pro-active monitoring and enforcement, rather than less. ARRL certainly plugs their spectrum defense fund, to fill in many places where the FCC is not stepping up to the plate on their own.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: N3QE on June 12, 2013, 07:56:43 AM
True,but who is monitoring and sifting?

See, this is the sore point. The government agencies and contractors/employees (outside FCC which unfortunately doesn't do much anymore) that do the monitoring, cannot tell us that they are monitoring without breaking the law and/or violating the super-secret court orders. Government officials sometimes have to lie (or at least not reveal) to congress, because if they revealed anything they would be violating the super-secret court orders. What a tangled web. e.g. Clapper is in a true Catch-22.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: NK7Z on June 12, 2013, 08:02:14 AM
True,but who is monitoring and sifting?
Nothing to worry about here...  There is no one monitoring or sifting any ham radio traffic anywhere...  Honest, I promise...  Really...  Nothing to worry about...  Move along, this isn't the traffic you are looking for...


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: K1CJS on June 12, 2013, 08:07:09 AM
With all due respects, if you've got something to hide, you don't want to freely transmit it--unless it was encrypted.  And that is something that is specifically prohibited in amateur radio.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: KD0REQ on June 12, 2013, 08:16:57 AM
I'm more worried about Worked All FCC than Worked All NSA, myself.

now, when a guy calls at 3 AM saying, "we know where you live.  when we have room, we will send for you," then it's time to worry.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: M6GOM on June 12, 2013, 08:42:31 AM
Being from the UK I'd be happy to get a QSL card from the NSA.  ;D



Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: K8AXW on June 12, 2013, 09:33:55 AM
GOM:  I've received 2 QSL cards from the FCC during my ham career..... I really don't think getting one from NSA (No Such Agency) would be any more enjoyable.  Actually, the hand delivered "QSL" will be from the FBI, not NSA. 

Actually, on a serious note, this kind of operation has been going on since WWI.  Not to worry.



Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: W1JKA on June 12, 2013, 01:28:53 PM
Not worried,just curious as to how much effort was devoted to tracking coded traffic on the ham or short wave bands,maybe that will leak out in tomorrows news.I'm all set,very mobile with qrp gear and a tin foil liner in my baseball hat.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: W0BTU on June 12, 2013, 01:50:34 PM
... Some of us would like it, if FCC did more pro-active monitoring and enforcement, rather than less. ...

Bingo! I've heard enough talk on HF the past few years to know that "Some" above could safely be replaced with "A whole lot of us". I, for one, would be delighted if the FCC monitored 75 meters (for example) like they used to 30 years ago and fined the daylights out of the drunk, filthy-mouthed ilk that live there.

At any rate, I wouldn't care if the FCC, NSA, CIA, etc. recorded every single word I ever said (or will say) on the radio. I have nothing to hide.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: NK7Z on June 12, 2013, 03:24:42 PM
Not worried,just curious as to how much effort was devoted to tracking coded traffic on the ham or short wave bands,maybe that will leak out in tomorrows news.I'm all set,very mobile with qrp gear and a tin foil liner in my baseball hat.
If you look carefully at this site:
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/
You will find a PDF file for construction of a foil hat...  Also there is a rousing discussion on which side to have pointing towards your head, the shiny side, or the dull side...

Not kidding,  this is one of the best joke sites I have ever seen on the net...


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: W1JKA on June 12, 2013, 04:15:15 PM
Re:NK7Z

Thanks for the site and resulting revelant info,now I know why my cap has not been functioning properly,for one thing I was using the cheap WallMart brand foil instead of genuine Reynolds aluminum foil.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: NK7Z on June 12, 2013, 06:29:43 PM
Re:NK7Z

Thanks for the site and resulting revelant info,now I know why my cap has not been functioning properly,for one thing I was using the cheap WallMart brand foil instead of genuine Reynolds aluminum foil.
Isn't that site a hoot!  ;)


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: N4JTE on June 12, 2013, 08:00:58 PM
It's pretty obvious, nobody gives a crap about what is said on ham radio including the FCC.
bob


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: ONAIR on June 13, 2013, 12:55:50 AM
I recently heard some hams discussing this very subject over the air!  One said that all electromagnetic transmissions are now monitored and recorded via satellites.  The point of origin for the signals are also logged.  Wonder if we'll ever hear about this?


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: W1JKA on June 13, 2013, 02:38:27 AM
Re:ONAIR

Probably not,as of this morning news we hams have not been exposed by Eddie Snowden or the Wicky Leeks guy,I believe they are holding back this info as a future bargaining chip against possible future legal action by the suits.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: KH6AQ on June 13, 2013, 08:03:40 AM
The CW portions of the HF bands are already monitored and copied electronically by amateur reverse beacon receivers. A list of call signs is available for lookup on the web. Look to the left of this screen at the DX Cluster Spots and you will see automatic postings.

It would be a simple matter for an entity to receive and record all of every HF amateur band, CW, data, and SSB, and using voice recognition software and CW/DATA decoding software, and monitor it in real time.

I suppose this is being done so that the amateur radio bands (and all frequencies in between) cannot be used as a way around telephone and internet data monitoring. I don't think this comes under the FISA laws.



Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: KD0REQ on June 13, 2013, 08:41:31 AM
I suspect it comes down to watching where the bad guys are probably doing business.  the stuff that news agencies (AP broke a training center and the SA7 missle documents in Mali, for instance, by walking through the site after it was raided and picking loose stuff up) have gotten doesn't indicate a strong interest in ham radio by the present bogeymen.  SIGINT does require resources, and there's a lot of air to filter through.

fact:  intelligence types always say they don't have enough data.

fact:  it doesn't change.  oh, they could do more, but they can't get all the way through what they have as raw data anyway.  that's why NSA DIA M-O-U-S-E has been so gung-ho for advanced computing, sifting chaff.

until they start catching Wacko bin Loonies putting up 80-foot towers with 4 element freebander beams, which kind of pins down their position, I don't think it will change much.  family-band or Wouxons, maybe.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: W1JKA on June 13, 2013, 10:51:04 AM
Re:KD0REQ

FRS(family radio)? Now there's an interesting thought,attach a small portable Yagi antenna with

 amplifier and use rapper or Navajo code talk.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: SWMAN on June 13, 2013, 12:47:28 PM
Who really cares if the government is listening or not, there is nothing in the world you can do about it even if they were. They will never tell you weather they are or they are not doing it. So dont worry about it. I could care less if they listened to me all day long. They just need to get a life.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: K1CJS on June 13, 2013, 02:01:56 PM
If you use the ham bands for what they're supposed to be used for, two things.  First, there's nothing you can do about it since there is no law against listening for anybody, and two, there's nothing you need to hide anyway.  Phone calls?  There are and have been phone patches for years.  No law against them--or using the ham bands with a tie-in to the phone.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: K1DA on June 13, 2013, 02:15:35 PM
CW Skimmer, which is the tip of a very large technology iceberg,  is available for AMATEURS, just think what the "Pros from Dover" have at hand.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: NK7Z on June 13, 2013, 06:25:58 PM
If you use the ham bands for what they're supposed to be used for, two things.  First, there's nothing you can do about it since there is no law against listening for anybody, and two, there's nothing you need to hide anyway.  Phone calls?  There are and have been phone patches for years.  No law against them--or using the ham bands with a tie-in to the phone.
Absolutely correct sir!


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: K2OWK on June 13, 2013, 11:31:19 PM
You are being tapped and listened to by every person, government agency and anyone with a short wave receiver in the world (and possibly outside the world) capable of receiving the frequency you are transmitting on. Ham radio is open to anyone who wants to listen in. If it were different who would we talk to, so if you monitor me please give me a shout and we will talk.


73s

K2OWK


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: K8AXW on June 14, 2013, 09:13:37 AM
Guess how many times I've heard someone say, "I heard you on the scanner this evening" or "We listen to you on the scanner."


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: KE3WD on June 14, 2013, 01:31:15 PM
ALL YOUR QSO ARE BELONG TO US


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: W1JKA on June 14, 2013, 01:47:16 PM
I'm going to build a trap antenna and see if I can catch those 5 letter code burst group boys up on 14.073 myself.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: AA4PB on June 14, 2013, 04:41:58 PM
We thought it was long delayed echos when in actuality it was NSA dumping the stuff they collected 30 years ago  :D


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: ONAIR on June 16, 2013, 01:36:52 AM
Guess how many times I've heard someone say, "I heard you on the scanner this evening" or "We listen to you on the scanner."
  That never worried me.  However, I do get nervous when they tell me that they hear me on their hearing aid!


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: G3RZP on June 16, 2013, 02:41:08 AM
With hearing aids using radio in the 900 MHz band, that could happen - especially if you use digitised speech and FSK modulation!


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: KE3WD on June 16, 2013, 12:35:36 PM
Had a neighbor once who told me, after a contest weekend, that he could hear me sounding like a duck -- out of the base of his BLENDER.  I smiled and said, "really?" and then said, "thanks" and did not pursue it one iota further. 


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: W1JKA on June 16, 2013, 02:46:16 PM
Re:KE3WD

Sounds to me like your neighbor was mixing his third Mud Slide. :)


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: LA9XSA on June 16, 2013, 04:35:12 PM
I guess that tells us that SSB does in fact blend.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: G3RZP on June 18, 2013, 05:02:57 AM
Was it the IOTA contest?


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: NK7Z on June 18, 2013, 06:57:52 AM
Was it the IOTA contest?
Hi,

I would presume it is a contest to see how many IOTA stations can be worked.  IOTA stands for "Islands, On The Air".  The RSGB created it...  See:
http://www.rsgbiota.org/


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: G3RZP on June 18, 2013, 11:47:24 AM
KE3WD said

> I smiled and said, "really?" and then said, "thanks" and did not pursue it one iota further. <

Thus the tongue in cheek joke question.....

RSGB did not create IOTA: that was done by an SWL, Geoff Watts, back in the 1960s. RSGB took it over after he died.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: NK7Z on June 18, 2013, 01:08:47 PM
KE3WD said

> I smiled and said, "really?" and then said, "thanks" and did not pursue it one iota further. <

Thus the tongue in cheek joke question.....

RSGB did not create IOTA: that was done by an SWL, Geoff Watts, back in the 1960s. RSGB took it over after he died.
Just trying to help...


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: AC2EU on June 18, 2013, 02:50:58 PM
Latest news indicates there may be a small breach in the privacy of our use of cell phones and computers by certain special interest groups. So far I have heard no mention of info gathering from on air amateur radio stations.Apparently the hi-tech info gathering budget doesn't include funding for lo-tech RF info.I guess if you want secure/private communications today a mobile pirate station is the way to go.Speaking in tongues of course.

Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean that they aren't listening...
Check  Wiki leaks, see if you are on the target list  ;D


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: AD6KA on June 19, 2013, 11:43:03 AM
"You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it."
                ---Scott McNealy, CEO Sun Microsystems 1-26-99

Every phone call, cell or landline, every email,
every radio conversation or electronic data tranfer anywhere,
is or can be, monitored and scanned by the NSA.
If you think otherwise, you are fooling yourself.
73, Ken  AD6KA


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: G3RZP on June 19, 2013, 12:25:40 PM
Question, to what extent do they care? imagine 4 million guys talking sex to their girl friends and jerking off while having a sex call - there aren't enough CIA/FBI etc guys to listen!

If a guy needed to contact a Middle East terrorist group with  a pre-arranged HF schedule, it would be very hard to intercept him, unless you know approximately where he is. Sad but true.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: AD6KA on June 19, 2013, 02:36:10 PM
Question, to what extent do they care?

They are looking for terrorists and other gov. threats.
They don't care about the rest. %99.999999999999999999999+++++
of it is white noise.
Quote
there aren't enough CIA/FBI etc guys to listen!
It runs through super computers using voice recognition
software and looking for "key words" and patterns.

Hey, they gotta do what they gotta do.

There was a program about the NSA on The History Channel
here.(Not one of those crazy conspiracy shows)
One ex FBI employee said (paraphrasing here) that if
they had been using the capabilities and methods used
now back in 2000, they probably would have prevented 9/11.

But of course an ex employee would say something like
that. Not an impartial source.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: AC2EU on June 19, 2013, 03:24:20 PM

Hey, they gotta do what they gotta do.

There was a program about the NSA on The History Channel
here.(Not one of those crazy conspiracy shows)
One ex FBI employee said (paraphrasing here) that if
they had been using the capabilities and methods used
now back in 2000, they probably would have prevented 9/11.

But of course an ex employee would say something like
that. Not an impartial source.

Yeah, like the 50 "classified" foiled plots! RIGHT! I bet they don't exist.

They didn't connect the dots in Boston and they were begging to be investigated.
Every time they think that can justify the "patriot Act" they do. The track record so far has been dismal at best.
Here's some on the the hit parade:

Lackawana 6
Newburgh 3 stooges
NYC Pakistani that was soooo "stoopid"  that he couldn't figure out how to ignite gasoline!

WOW! SUCH THREATS!!!!


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: W1JKA on June 19, 2013, 03:55:14 PM
Looks like I'll have to break out my muffled jungle drums after dark and use DNA genetic code beats.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: G3RZP on June 20, 2013, 03:15:14 AM
If they have no reason to suspect, and time is not an objective, the good old fashioned letter is likely to get through without suspicion - depending on where it is going, of course.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: W1JKA on June 20, 2013, 03:28:01 AM
Re:G3RZP

More than likely especially if written and addressed in invisible ink. ;)


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: N6AJR on June 30, 2013, 03:08:51 PM
Whether it is being tapped  or not  really becomes a moot point eventually.  if "they" are tapping all this data from cell, internet, radio and so on.  there is so much data, there is infromation overload, so if you don't use their "keywords" they have the computer set up to look for, most of the info is just  so much noise.


Title: RE: Is my station being tapped?
Post by: KB2WIG on June 30, 2013, 04:09:58 PM
We know who you are.


And we'll be watching.