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eHam Forums => Elmers => Topic started by: KE4JOY on June 14, 2013, 01:05:50 PM



Title: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: KE4JOY on June 14, 2013, 01:05:50 PM
 Okay here's something you don't hear often.

I have a dipole strung up tween two trees (okay you hear that allot) but its been up there a number of years. I went to lower it the other day and .. uth oh, both ends of the tie lines have grown into the tree. She ain't commin down.

I pulled tugged jerked fussed fumed and sweated.

Any ideas on how to get it down??  ???


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: WH7DX on June 14, 2013, 01:18:15 PM
Either hire someone who can climb or sling / throw a heavier line over the center and break it down by pulling on the line with both ends of new line.    ;D

I would think that with one dipole side down, pulling on the coax would be enough to break the other side.. don't know what was used etc. 


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: W1JKA on June 14, 2013, 01:22:55 PM
Go to WallyWorld or any sporting goods store and buy one of those cheap emergency flexable finger saws(flexible wire with carbide teeth and finger ring on each end)then make up a heaving line with saw in middle to throw over dipole wire(if not to high) or use sling shot,long enough to come back down on other end,slide to one insulator end and saw through.Of course this one downed end will have to be temporarily thrown back up in tree and made taught while you do same to other end.Been there done that but only at 35 ft. height.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: N4JTE on June 14, 2013, 02:16:46 PM
Well welcome to wire world hi. Just give it up and pull feedline as hard as you can and if possible cut any remaining wire as high as you can. I have sinkers, string, pulleys, wire etc, long abandoned, in all my trees that will get taller every year while I keep shrinking!
Bob


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: N4HRA on June 14, 2013, 03:43:30 PM
If you are going to put up another antenna in the trees:
What I do is I have a pulley on each of the rope that goes over the branch,
I run a rope through the pulley that's connects to the antenna, this way I can loosen that rope at eather end use the fed line to pull down the antenna.
Make sure you have a weight, springs etc on end of the rope that goes through the pulley for tree movement during a windy day

Just my 2 cents
Lew


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: K2DC on June 14, 2013, 04:53:19 PM
As far as getting it down - without a climber about all you can do is yank it and pray.  I've always done something similar to what N4HRA suggested, but a simple snap-ring works just about as well as a pulley and it's a lot cheaper.

73,

Don, K2DC


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: W6EM on June 14, 2013, 05:23:36 PM
Don't know what your tie lines are made of, or how far out they run from the trees.  If it's rope or parachute cord, you could melt it with a mini-torch, provided you can get up high enough on a ladder with a lit torch taped to the end of a 10 foot or longer piece of thin wall conduit or fiberglass (fishing) rod on the end of that.  Chancy, but effective.  Make sure the torch will stay lit for the 5 minutes or so you'll need to hoist it and melt or burn through the cord.  Then again, you could also tape a hacksaw blade to the end also and try your luck with that.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: KD0REQ on June 14, 2013, 06:46:26 PM
I have never had any luck extricating the grown-over rope.  cut it off and redo.

what I did this time with the trap dipole is put up a pulley on 12-gauge solid wire.  wire inside 1/4 gas tubing.  there is a good extra foot of wire so the pulley rig is not bound into the crotch of the branches.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: W6EM on June 14, 2013, 07:01:32 PM
Ah, one more possibility.  If you live in the sticks of Alabama as I do, well, get out the old 20 gauge or 12 gauge and some 00 shot shells and cut 'er down.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: K8AXW on June 14, 2013, 09:45:51 PM
JOY: 

First and foremost.... when pulling down a wire or rope as suggested, wear safety goggles!  This situation can be quite dangerous.

As for breaking the rope anywhere.... if it's good stuff ..... it ain't gonna happen! 

JKA's suggestion hold a lot of promise and I'd consider that very thoroughly.  After rejecting the "climbing the tree" option.



Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: KE4JOY on June 15, 2013, 08:30:24 AM
Go to WallyWorld or any sporting goods store and buy one of those cheap emergency flexable finger saws(flexible wire with carbide teeth and finger ring on each end)then make up a heaving line with saw in middle to throw over dipole wire(if not to high) or use sling shot,long enough to come back down on other end,slide to one insulator end and saw through.Of course this one downed end will have to be temporarily thrown back up in tree and made taught while you do same to other end.Been there done that but only at 35 ft. height.

This is an excellent idea, although the dipole is up there pretty good @ 60'-0". I will give this a try.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: G3RZP on June 15, 2013, 03:39:30 PM
I have the same problem. When it's necessary to replace the halliard, it will just get cut. Somewhat amazes me how much the tree bark grows.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: K8AXW on June 15, 2013, 08:15:38 PM
OM..... 60ft ?  You gonna have to go to plan B!  I was thinking maybe 35ft max.  Looks like you could use a "Trunk Monkey." 

(Google Trunk Monkey ads)


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: KK4ONQ on June 15, 2013, 09:39:31 PM
Friction. I learned a few years ago in the woods without a knife para cord will cut itself easy by taking the tag end and using two hand cutting it across the point I wanted the other end cut. Just try to keep the rope in the same spot. I'm sure it would work with other ropes too. Maybe not a cable though.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: WH7DX on June 15, 2013, 11:28:22 PM
I would just yank the whole thing down.   I wouldn't keep anything but perhaps the coax after all those years.   The rest will come down with time.  Something will give.   Tie it do a bumper... have fun!   ;D 


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: N3DT on June 16, 2013, 11:15:15 AM
I'm going to have this issue sometime too.  I've got about 4 dacron/kevlar ropes up over branches and some of them are free and some are not.  I keep thinking there must be some way to send a little device up the end you do have to cut it off close to the branch.  The other end, good luck, jerk real hard.  My line is about 800 pound stuff though, it would probably bring the branch down.

That said, I've been thinking about when using ropes over branches, why not send up a loop of rope with a pulley or just a snap link to pass the antenna rope through. If you could get the loop with the pulley up there with some sort of double rope arrangement, pulling one rope disconnects the loop and leaves it on the branch, so that's all that will be left in the end.  I just haven't thought it out enough but I bet it could be done.

I bet with enough ingenuity a rope climbing device with a cutter on it could be made.  It's not magic.  Be a good science fair project.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: WH7DX on June 16, 2013, 01:41:01 PM
Having two anchor ropes holding it up should be easier than a center rope and two insulator ropes.  That center rope wouldn't come off nearly as easy as the antenna wires connected at coax.  That is the weak point.   

Being that its 60ft up...

1) cut the 2 trees down
2) get a climber
3) rope saw
4) new rope over the top and break it down
5) my choice... Break it down with coax.   Wrap it around your waist, get a running start and then fill us in with the details..   ;D

My wife always says.. You can break anything you set your mind to! 


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: W1JKA on June 16, 2013, 02:30:04 PM
Re:N3DT

Yes, it can be done but depending on type of tree it can be a difficult or relatively easy,also desired height and catenary lead space must be considered.For a coniferous type tree with fairly uniform and straight branches and tappered to the top you send up the appropriate lenght of your permenent loop line(weighted)via the various launching methods to the highest point(max for me has been 40-50 ft.) then go around back side of tree and re shoot back on opposite side of center trunk so that you now have a big U of rope around upper tree and both ends back a same ground point,this is why you need a lot of rope so you can get as far away as possibe from base of tree with shallowest angle to top as possible to avoid longer lower tiered branches during haul up.Tie a permenent 2 in.dia, loop(eye) in one end,marry to this loop(eye) a 5-10 ft. or appropriate length of permenent line which on the other end will be your pully and pre rigged  antenna halyard thru pully that already has ant wire and insulator attached.Now take the other(bitter) end of loop line and reeve thru the eye,You now have what looks like a giant lasso around high part of tree with a lenght of line with pully/halyard/antenna wire dangleing down from lasso eye.Now for the fun part and believe me this is a 2 man and 2 six pack operation.Both men as far back from tree as possible,one pulling loop(lasso) tight and other guiding ant/halyard combo away and between branch tips while loop is being cinched up to top of tree.You will be left with end of loop line to be tied off at tree base and your actual antenna  halyard.Once a year slack off loop line take a little strain on other end of antenna and tighten loop again,this will free loop line from what bark has started to grow around it.Obviously deciduous type trees with their various angled branches will offer a bit more challange and pre planning.It's a lot more easier for me to do it than explaine it.HI 


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: N3DT on June 16, 2013, 04:01:49 PM
I still say a rope climber device with a cut off/burn off arrangement would work.  I'm talking about deciduous oak trees here with 2-3" branches up 50-60'.  I have plenty 80' oaks in my yard that will do.  Send up only one rope, bring both ends down over the branch, pre-tie knots so you can pull a loop around the branch with a pulley or ring inside the loop.  Of course you will have to send another rope up with the pulley.  Then send up the rope climber on the rope with the loop and just cut off the loop leaving it around the branch.  I know it sounds too easy, but to make a rope climber that will do what we need is the issue.  And it would have to not have any knots in the rope.

I've got an 80M C-Pole up about 60' and the bottom is about 4' off the ground.  Also pulled up a stacked Hoverman TV antenna about 50'.  That  one is stuck.  The Hoverman I can pull in Channel 26 (UHF) from DC and line of sight from my location is about 55 miles over 2 ridges.  Once in a while the digital signal drops out.  It looks rinky-dink, but hardly anyone looks up that high.  I'll blast it out with the 12 gauge when we leave unless another Derecho takes it out.  We had one of those 80' trees on the house last year from that Derecho.  http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/Tree/DSCN0956.jpg


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: KE4JOY on June 16, 2013, 04:07:54 PM

5) my choice... Break it down with coax.   Wrap it around your waist, get a running start and then fill us in with the details..   ;D

My wife always says.. You can break anything you set your mind to! 

Hah... of course I tried giving the coax a good tug all I did was pull the bottom of the balun out  ::)


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: WH7DX on June 16, 2013, 04:20:33 PM

5) my choice... Break it down with coax.   Wrap it around your waist, get a running start and then fill us in with the details..   ;D

My wife always says.. You can break anything you set your mind to! 

Hah... of course I tried giving the coax a good tug all I did was pull the bottom of the balun out  ::)

So the coax came off?  Just the antenna wire to center connector?   So rope saw maybe?  don't know rope thickness... 60ft it pretty far up.  That means you probably wouldn't notice it much either.    I'd either leave it there or sling another rope over and break of down.  You'll have two sides hanging from the tree until they rust down..


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: W1JKA on June 16, 2013, 04:39:24 PM
Re:N3DT

Your rope climber device has merit,the main issue would be getting the device in close to the trunk among all the angled branches otherwise just get your messenger line up and over the wire and attach one of those combo branch pruner/cutter poles with a few rolling half hitches along its length haul her up and spend a little time fiddling around to get the cutter hook twisted over the rope/wire and pull on the long pole cutter lanyard and get the hell out of the way quick.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: W6EM on June 16, 2013, 05:52:20 PM
Re:N3DT

Your rope climber device has merit,the main issue would be getting the device in close to the trunk among all the angled branches otherwise just get your messenger line up and over the wire and attach one of those combo branch pruner/cutter poles with a few rolling half hitches along its length haul her up and spend a little time fiddling around to get the cutter hook twisted over the rope/wire and pull on the long pole cutter lanyard and get the hell out of the way quick.

If the rope is just stuck, and not impelled in and covered too much by overgrown bark, you could try the "two ropes and a pulley" method.  First step: slingshot a line over the existing rope resting point and pull a rope from the ground up and through the same crotch with the old rope.  Take the far end of the old rope run it through a pulley on the side where its presently tied off.  Next, take the end of the rope you just pulled over the old one and tie it to the end of the old rope.  Now, take another very long piece of rope and tie it to the hook on the pulley frame.  This rope will be your “tag” line to hold the pulley up, or it will replace the old rope as the support.  Now, pull on the new rope, hoisting up the old rope and pulley up to the crotch of the limb.  As it crosses the crotch, you may have to pull quite hard, but it should yank the old rope out of the bark.  When it does, the antenna will drop.  Make sure the “tag” line rope is tied on the other end so you won’t lose it over the limb in the process.

Good luck and 73,

Lee

PS.  I may have to do the same thing to the feedpoint on my 160M inverted vee.  Beats a shotgun... 


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: KE4JOY on June 17, 2013, 09:43:10 AM

So the coax came off?  Just the antenna wire to center connector?   So rope saw maybe?  don't know rope thickness... 60ft it pretty far up.  That means you probably wouldn't notice it much either.    I'd either leave it there or sling another rope over and break of down.  You'll have two sides hanging from the tree until they rust down..

Nah it is a homebrew balun and had a bottom plate that held a 259 in place, the plate pulled loose so not its hanging by the coax. Antenna still works btw. Thought it had some issues but it turned out to be a faulty bypass switch in my tuner. That has been resolved and it tunes fine now so Im in no big rush to fix what is working :) But itwould be nice to be able to inspect it.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: K8AXW on June 17, 2013, 10:53:06 AM
Since everyone is risking humiliation with their ideas on how to make a rope climber, etc., let me hang mine out.

Visualize two ropes tied to a large wooden loop (large enough to clear insulators and knots) ....one rope at each end of the loop. 

One rope is thrown over a limb higher than the one where the antenna rope is caught. The antenna is fed through the loop (disconnected from the center insulator) with the blade and the other end of the rope over the limb is pulled up until it stops where the rope goes into the limb.  Each rope is pulled back and forth until the blade cuts the rope.  Then the whole thing is pulled down.

Understand this is a rough thought with needed tweeking.

The "loop" could be made from a piece of 3/4" X 3" lumber with a large hole cut in it with a hole saw.

The blade could then be attached....even two blades attached to a common holder which could be as simple as two strips of metal with screws to clamp the blades and holes on each end to attach to the wooded loop. The two blades would be clamped end to end giving a longer cutting edge.

It might even be feasible to use the same branch as the snagged rope to use this.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: K8AXW on June 17, 2013, 02:07:07 PM
Just for the hellovit I went to the shop and fabricated a facsimile of what I'm trying to say.  Instead of taking the time to cut two pieces of aluminum for the knife clamp, I fashioned this from heavy paper. 

The 3 dots on the paper represents 3 screws which hold the two utility knives in place as well as holding the clamp and knife assembly to the wood shuttle. 

I made the shuttle from 1/2" plywood.

It this won't work, I sure would like to know why not.

Here's the link:  http://s1171.photobucket.com/user/KarlAibling/library/eHam?sort=9&page=1#/user/KarlAibling/library/eHam?sort=9&page=1&_suid=137150268640603991124524072478


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: KE4JOY on June 17, 2013, 02:28:13 PM
You may be on to something there but I do not understand, how do you feed the antenna or anchor ropes through the loop when its tied off at both ends?

Maybe if you could make a upside down U that could be pulled up  and over  a tied off line with a cutting tool similar to those branch cutting poles at the top of the U or V for that matter.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pole+tree+trimmer&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=94C30B293FD3FFDCFAF07D70015673FF471D7069&selectedIndex=0


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: K8AXW on June 17, 2013, 05:47:35 PM
JOY:  Well, we're talking inverted V or a dipole.  When the antenna is dropped down by one end, hopefully one leg can be disconnected from the center insulator.  Then that end of the wire if fed through the loop.

Plan B would be to saw a slot in the side of the loop for the wire to slide through.  I have no idea if this contraption is workable but it seems to me at first blush it should work.  Might be a good thing to have laying around if you have other hams in the area.  This, like so many other tools, is worthless until it's needed..... once in a blue moon!



Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: AD6KA on June 17, 2013, 06:49:26 PM
Whatever method you decide on, please wear a hardhat
and eye protection. It's not worth losing an eye over.

Even a 1 oz sinker falling 60 feet will be going
19.70 m/s (43 mph) when it hits the ground.

The Splat Calculator:
http://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed


73 ES GL,
Ken  AD6KA


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: W1JKA on June 18, 2013, 03:00:56 AM
The pole tree trimmer already has the upside down U cutter head on it,just unbolt and take off the saw.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: N4OGW on June 18, 2013, 07:10:30 AM
I have many such lines stuck in trees now. Sometimes I have used a rope chain saw to cut down the branch they are stuck in. It is basically a chain saw blade with two ropes tied to either end. This can take a lot of work however and is very hard when it is stuck very high up. Mostly I just leave them in now.

Sometimes you can tie it to the bumper of your truck/tractor/lawn mower and yank it out that way :)

Tor
N4OGW
 


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: K8AXW on June 18, 2013, 07:49:10 PM
Tor:  Yup!  That'll work! 


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: N3DT on June 19, 2013, 08:47:33 AM
Trouble is you may end up with a rope hanging up about 20' by just pulling on it if the branch doesn't break down.  But that's not all bad.


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: G8JNJ on June 19, 2013, 09:20:14 AM
K8AXW,

I like your idea - I think a Stanley knife blade wedged in a suitable size split ring (keyring) with two lengths of line would do a similar job. May need a bit of Superglue to hold the blade in position though.

I may try this to tidy up some of my old lines.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Martin - G8JNJ

ww.g8jnj.webs.com


Title: RE: Stuck up a tree!
Post by: KE4JOY on June 28, 2013, 05:19:04 PM
As "luck" would have it a storm came through today and popped one end of the dipole loose.

Bad news is the antenna is down, good news is the antenna is down  ;D

One end is still securely anchored up about 60'-0" or so. I will get a better look at it in the morning.

Good news is the rope broke and not the antenna. Of course I will have to give it a through going over before hoisting it up again. I think maybe this time I see pulleys  8)