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eHam Forums => QRP => Topic started by: WG5G on June 22, 2013, 03:17:17 PM



Title: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: WG5G on June 22, 2013, 03:17:17 PM
Hello, my name is Dan, WG5G, I was the winner of this years low power catagory of CQ magazine's DX MARATHON, well if you read the article in the June issue you'll see no mention of that catagory, dont know if the big boys dont beleive it can be done or they are embarrassed that someone can score 296 with 5 watts and an antenna at 50 feet. I know a few of you that are regulars here, WA2TPU, NU4B, AA4GA, AE5X and a few others, I think you all will agree its time we get a little better treatment from CQ magazine and the ARRL, come on a DXCC/QRP for 100 countries with no endorsement, give me a break, Hey Cam N6GA, are you reading this, come on guys we are Dxers too, I personally rather work dx from my home station, but to each his own, I hope this gets read and noticed, 73/72 Dan, WG5G/QRP FOREVER.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: W1JKA on June 22, 2013, 05:35:07 PM
Dan,I fully understand and respect your view on this subject,however as a hard core QRPer myself with the vast majority of my qso 's being 2 x qrp that in general we as a group do not give much credence to recognition,wall paper or printed coverage.This is due to most in this niche are in it solely for self satisfaction ,self sufficiency and of a laid back nature.Our main qso concerns are rigs,mutual interest,geographical qth info.I seldom hear the word " contest "mentioned and if so it is quickly followed up by mentioning something about hiding out on 30m for the weekend.I have nothing against contest,just not my thing.Even QRP has its sub niches and I'm sure others with views such as yours will chime in.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K0OD on June 22, 2013, 06:52:55 PM
Quote
"the big boys dont beleive it can be done or they are embarrassed that someone can score 296 with 5 watts and an antenna at 50 feet."

You left out that your antenna is a 200 pound 5-element quad:
http://files.qrz.com/g/wg5g/New_Image.JPG (http://files.qrz.com/g/wg5g/New_Image.JPG)



Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K8AXW on June 22, 2013, 07:35:37 PM
OD:  Snicker...... chortle...... :D ;D   ::)

"I'm running only 5 watts here.  Antenna is a 28 element, 5 band Yagi, 97ft boom .....with 57db gain...... "

Dan, you should be putting strobes on that antenna to warn the birds!  Daymn!


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: KB4QAA on June 23, 2013, 01:42:28 PM
If you think QRP'ers don't get respect, consider those who labor with carbon element microphones! Not a single mention anywhere.   ;)


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AK4YH on June 23, 2013, 02:33:48 PM
QRP means different things to different people. I for once can't stand contests and don't consider using a big quad antenna to be QRP.. But that's me.. So, I couldn't care less about recognition. It means nothing to me. When I make long distance contacts with my little portable rig and an end-fed up a tree, that's all the satisfaction I need. Nobody ever knows about it but me and the other guy, and maybe some eavesdroppers; who cares... I understand that Hams who like competition like it when their accomplishments get noticed and they get  little ego-boost.. But there just aren't many people in that clique to make a big deal out of it. I don't think there is a real discussion whether QRP works but by some frustrated (for having spent thousands for an amp) and ignorant people.
Maybe QRP contesting isn't the best way to make headlines... Better pick up Golf...

Gil.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on June 23, 2013, 02:35:58 PM
Hey buddy,
 I had to go reread the CQ article. Ignoring those antenna comments (not sure what that has to do with anything) it was surprising  the way the article was written. They clearly have 2 divisions in the formula class. It may have more to do with the limitations the author had with space - OK, a flimsy excuse, but the best I can come up with. Remember, too, there were only 12 participants in the QRP division which brings me to this:
 I think the main thing we have to remember is that QRPers are a small subset of the general ham population and those of us actively DXing and contesting are a smaller subset of that group. So who are they writing for - those guys with huge stations who think we are foolish in our endeavors - are much bigger chunk of the ham market.
 It is interesting, though, in the CQ contests the QRP category has grown tremendously. (CQWW and WPX). Back when I started they were lucky to get 100 entries. Now I got over 200 logs last time I counted a couple years ago. And CQ has done a decent job promoting QRP - with QRP columns, QRP issues, and adding the QRP assisted category to their contests. I have seen some QRP articles lately in QST and in fact I'm building the Cyclone 40 - the result of ARRL design contest.
 
 But I think the bottom line is we are the ones that will have to promote those QRP activities like contesting and DXing. (These big gun DXers are the guys that think they need 1500 watts to QSO CY0 from W2 - and there are many more of those than us.) Maybe we should sponsor a plaque for the QRP division for the DX Marathon. Personally I think the divisions in the marathon are strange.  (CQ is trying to copy the original Marathon of decades ago. The idea is great, but there are some things that work better in 2013) There should be 3 categories - Unlimited, 100 watt, QRP. And all this antenna business  - just throw that out. But we need to write in and give them our ideas. Usually a plaque sponsorship will get their attention. And the attention of potential participants.

Maybe we (and some of the other active QRP DXers) should exchange some emails and talk about promoting QRP DXing and contesting.

And finally - a BIG congratulations to WG5G for winning the QRP division in the 2012 DX Marathon: 256 countries; all 40 zones!
Excellent work, Dan!

73/72 Larry NU4B


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: WG5G on June 23, 2013, 03:54:30 PM
Good evening Larry and all who responded,Larry I think you hit the nail on the head with the plaque sponsership, guess I need to email the powers that be about that, tnx for the tip, also tnx for the congrats, I know you are competing this year and know its no cake walk, regardless of antenna.I wud like to see more of the qrpers in this forum and the general qrp population enter for that exact reason to cement our legacy in ham radio. For those ooohing and awwwing over my antenna, all I can say first I designed and built it all by myself, kinda like the way you all build qrp gear, and last time I cked qrp was defined as 5 watts output from the radio, I always thought the best way to improve would be at the antenna end, so I just gradually improved my antenna. The antenna you see on QRZ was built so I had a chance at the last few that I need, most of my dx was wked with a 2 ele quad at 30 ft, theres still some skill involved wking dx and sometimes luck, but its always fun, 73/72 Dan WG5G.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on June 23, 2013, 05:44:06 PM
Quote
I cked qrp was defined as 5 watts output from the radio, I always thought the best way to improve would be at the antenna end, so I just gradually improved my antenna.

Yeah, like I said, I'm not sure what those antenna comments were about. I always thought a improving your antennas was a good thing. More preferable than say... buying an amp. Plus learning about antennas and propagation is kind of essential in long distance QRP operation. 

Then there was that one dude that didn't like contests, recognition, or gain antennas. I think QRP has for the most part been accepted as 5 watts or below from the transmitter (10 watts PEP).

For those of us that do enjoy DXing, contesting, (and gain antennas) its nice to see a little recognition for our efforts. Ultimately its personal satisfaction with building a QRP station that can work the world, but its nice to read what Dan is doing or what other QRPers that are working DX are doing and share in the excitement of their success.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K0OD on June 23, 2013, 10:53:57 PM
Quote
"the big boys dont beleive it can be done or they are embarrassed that someone can score 296 with 5 watts and an antenna at 50 feet."

You left out that your antenna is a 200 pound 5-element quad:
http://files.qrz.com/g/wg5g/New_Image.JPG (http://files.qrz.com/g/wg5g/New_Image.JPG)

That monstrosity is on an urban lot of less than 7,000 square feet. Neighbors are packed on either side and behind him. As a longtime DXer I generally view antennas as things of beauty, but that 200 lb quad is one reason many of us have to endure restrictions even on the most unobtrusive of antennas.

See it here (scroll to bottom to see antenna on G Street View):
http://www.homesnap.com/TX/San-Antonio/1210-Bailey-Avenue
 


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on June 24, 2013, 02:55:35 AM
Quote
"the big boys dont beleive it can be done or they are embarrassed that someone can score 296 with 5 watts and an antenna at 50 feet."

You left out that your antenna is a 200 pound 5-element quad:
http://files.qrz.com/g/wg5g/New_Image.JPG (http://files.qrz.com/g/wg5g/New_Image.JPG)

That monstrosity is on an urban lot of less than 7,000 square feet. Neighbors are packed on either side and behind him. As a longtime DXer I generally view antennas as things of beauty, but that 200 lb quad is one reason many of us have to endure restrictions even on the most unobtrusive of antennas.

See it here (scroll to bottom to see antenna on G Street View):
http://www.homesnap.com/TX/San-Antonio/1210-Bailey-Avenue
 

Been trolling around lately?  ;D

Actually the reason many of you have to endure restrictions even on the most unobtrusive antennas is because you moved into a place that has them. If your unhappy with your decision, rather than blame somebody else, maybe you should blame your poor decision making - and get a good real estate agent that will look out for your interests - like me.  ;D


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: F8WBD on June 24, 2013, 04:47:56 AM
Read W1JKA for my opinion on the subject. I concur totally.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K0OD on June 24, 2013, 02:01:13 PM
Quote
get a good real estate agent that will look out for your interests - like me.  Grin

Or a good real estate lawyer... like me.

Anything-Goes Texas is an antenna farmer paradise. Got listings near him? My wife can't wait. Here's the 200 lb quad as seen from next door:
http://www.homesnap.com/TX/San-Antonio/1212-Bailey-Avenue

I've worked every country in the world except two with nearly invisible antennas. A shack wall is covered with contest certificates. My 40-meter 4-square was a killer. Its reed-thin verticals blended into our 60' pines pretty well. Yes, some of my certificates were QRP.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: W7ASA on June 24, 2013, 03:34:10 PM
I personally prefer a low profile ham station and I view contests as nothing more than sanctioned jamming but that's my personal preference. As for this fellow's antenna - so what?  It's an antenna.  Personally, I don't like some of the things in other people's yards & occasionally I do not like them either.     :o    However, having failed to become the Emperor of Earth, I am pretty  much relegated to the fact that if it's their home and not actually causing damage or disturbing what we laughingly call 'the peace' in this country, then since it's THEIR home, it's actually none of my business.

Seeing the picture of his property & his home with an interestingly designed & built antenna, really presents me with no difficulty. It's his home and a man's home is his castle.  If some hand-wringing pansy is offended by a fraction of a percent of their view containing an antenna, then let them look elsewhere. There are far worse things to have in neighborhoods, most of which are filthy, noisy, predatory parasites      ::)   (but enough about politicians...).


de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: N4UM on June 24, 2013, 04:52:17 PM
I think the Stones wrote a song about this...I can't get no ...


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on June 24, 2013, 06:51:20 PM
Quote
get a good real estate agent that will look out for your interests - like me.  Grin

Or a good real estate lawyer... like me.

Anything-Goes Texas is an antenna farmer paradise. Got listings near him? My wife can't wait. Here's the 200 lb quad as seen from next door:
http://www.homesnap.com/TX/San-Antonio/1212-Bailey-Avenue

I've worked every country in the world except two with nearly invisible antennas. A shack wall is covered with contest certificates. My 40-meter 4-square was a killer. Its reed-thin verticals blended into our 60' pines pretty well. Yes, some of my certificates were QRP.

Just curious, who gets to decide what's acceptable? You? Me? Your wife? The neighbor's wife? Its the same old argument. (By the way, the topic of this thread had nothing to do with antennas and for the QRP division in the Marathon there are no antenna limitations. So I don't know what the point of this conversation is in relation to the topic.)

I live in Tennessee and you can move into a development with a bunch of covenants and regulations/restrictions...or... you can choose not to. I have seen some dandy antenna farms on a small lot. And they are perfectly within their right to build them - as long as they conform to county/city codes.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K8AXW on June 25, 2013, 08:36:30 AM
ASA:  Ray, I concure but the original poster was lamenting about feeling like a second rate HAM for running 5w. 

Then it was pointed out that the 5 watter was running into a massive bird strainer with an ERP that makes his 5w output laughable.

As for anyone upset with such an antenna in the back yard....well, as you well know, some simply can't take a joke!


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AD9DX on June 25, 2013, 09:21:39 AM
ASA:  Ray, I concure but the original poster was lamenting about feeling like a second rate HAM for running 5w. 

Then it was pointed out that the 5 watter was running into a massive bird strainer with an ERP that makes his 5w output laughable.

As for anyone upset with such an antenna in the back yard....well, as you well know, some simply can't take a joke!

So do you think QRP should only apply if the ERP is <5W?

FULL DISCLOSURE: I am not a QRPer, but do operate QRP often to increase my DX pileup skills for countries I've already got on certain bands...



Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: W1JKA on June 25, 2013, 09:58:46 AM
If you put a restriction on ERP with only 5W rig output then I guess the Best and Highest antenna possible theory for your rig goes right out the window.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on June 25, 2013, 10:38:32 AM
QRP output is not measured as ERP. Whether it should be or not is a different topic. I can't think of a single contest or award that uses ERP. It doesn't mean there's not one, but I don't know what it is.

Quote
Then it was pointed out that the 5 watter was running into a massive bird strainer with an ERP that makes his 5w output laughable

I think that is the whole point of improving your antenna system... isn't it? To increase the effective ERP without increasing the output power? Whether you put a dipole higher than it was, add more radials to a vertical, replace old coax, raise a beam... aren't these all activities that attempt to increase ERP?

Yes, I would like an antenna with an ERP that makes my 5 watt output laughable! As a DXer, heck yeah I want one!
That's what most DXers want whether 1000 watts, 100 watts, or 5 watts.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AE7UT on June 26, 2013, 11:49:46 AM
This is really an interesting thread.  I operate QRP and QRO.  I'm also very new to ham radio.

In my opinion a QRP guy with a massive antenna like that is at a huge advantage over most operators.
You're probably putting more signal in the air than many people running 100-500 watts and your receiving
capability would be FAR superior.

If it makes you feel any better I'm totally envious of your set up!
I live in an XYL restricted zone and just have a OCFD and EFHW wires.
The biggest thrill in my ham experience was firing up my just built K1 and making a contact.

73
Stan AE7UT



Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K0OD on June 26, 2013, 04:35:09 PM
WG5G: "Currently, just finished installing replacement rotator # 5"

From the Google Street View photo it sure looks like that 50' tower and 200lb quad that extends above it could fall onto the driveway (and car? and driver?) next door. As his neighbor, would you want your kids playing in the path of that monster?
http://www.homesnap.com/TX/San-Antonio/1210-Bailey-Avenue

Maybe WG5G's neighbor also believes "A Man's Home is His Castle."



Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K8AXW on June 27, 2013, 09:25:09 AM
ASA, and the rest..... yes, I do believe that 5w output means just that....ERP 5w....or at maximum 5w into a dipole....which does in fact have some gain.  But no "bird strainers!"

Think about it.  What is the point of saying, "I'm running 5 watts here" but leave out the fact that your ERP is 35 watts or more?  In my mind this simply doesn't compute!

To say it another way, it doesn't impress me a bit when someone proudly says that they worked "X" number of countries....WAC.....DXCC, etc., running QRP when in fact their ERP is much greater.

It does impress me when someone is running 5w with a wire antenna and has the skill and patience to actually work someone.....regardless of the location.... with QRP.

I recently built a QRP transceiver.  I then built a 50w linear for the transceiver.  The difference in results is incredible.

What's the difference with me jacking up my 2w to 50w with a linear or jacking up my 5w with a 9db gain beam? (In principal, not mathematically -  ::) )



Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: W1JKA on June 27, 2013, 12:04:48 PM
With 5w output where does a rotatable WIRE Hex Beam at 20 ft. fit into the equation other than being at the other end of the feed line? I'm not keen on now being considered a QRO operator.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K8AXW on June 27, 2013, 12:40:03 PM

Quote
where does a rotatable WIRE Hex Beam at 20 ft. fit into the equation other than being at the other end of the feed line?

JKA: I figure you're jerking me around by my ass with this question and I refuse to be sucked into a stupid argument or discussion with you. 

I stand firm in my opinion.  I'm not a QRP cop. QRP'rs can tell themselves anything they want to believe! ;)


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on June 27, 2013, 02:23:39 PM
ASA, and the rest..... yes, I do believe that 5w output means just that....ERP 5w....or at maximum 5w into a dipole....which does in fact have some gain.  But no "bird strainers!"

Think about it.  What is the point of saying, "I'm running 5 watts here" but leave out the fact that your ERP is 35 watts or more?  In my mind this simply doesn't compute!

To say it another way, it doesn't impress me a bit when someone proudly says that they worked "X" number of countries....WAC.....DXCC, etc., running QRP when in fact their ERP is much greater.

It does impress me when someone is running 5w with a wire antenna and has the skill and patience to actually work someone.....regardless of the location.... with QRP.

I recently built a QRP transceiver.  I then built a 50w linear for the transceiver.  The difference in results is incredible.

What's the difference with me jacking up my 2w to 50w with a linear or jacking up my 5w with a 9db gain beam? (In principal, not mathematically -  ::) )



On the receive side it may be the difference between hearing the DX station or not hearing the DX station. On the transmit side, its a more efficient use of the power available. Its the ability to make that DX contact with 5 watts and X beam versus making it with 1500 watts and X beam. Its not a really complicated concept. A gain antenna doesn't have to be an al yagi. It could be wires.
If you are promoting the idea that QRP is 5 watts ERP, OK, but that isn't the generally accepted definition of QRP for contests, awards, the QRP ARCI, and many other organizations. Incidentally the FCC doesn't use ERP in its power output limits either.
And the idea that one wouldn't make antenna improvements to increase their ERP is hogwash (at any power level).
And further the idea that one wouldn't substitute an effective (gain) antenna for an increase power tells me somebody doesn't get QRP. Installing the most effective antenna you can rather than increasing power IS QRP at its finest. The idea that you can build a small solar powered 5 watt station and feed it to a high gain antenna and work the world is amazing example of QRP.
I don't know where you people are coming from, but those of us who are die hard DX'ers aren't normally trying to contact 2 states over. What we are looking for are rare and far away stations normally located on the other side of the world. I guess you can wait until the solar conditions get to a point where its possible to make those contacts (receive and transmit) with a dipole (maybe at least a couple solar cycles away) or you can build a QRP station that can overcome the anemic solar conditions we have today. Or you can be a fake QRP'er and increase your power to make those QSOs - if you can hear them.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K8AXW on June 27, 2013, 08:30:51 PM
4B:  Excellent dissertation.  

With my 4w output CW transceiver and 9db gain Yagi I work just about everyone I hear.

With my 2w homebrew transceiver driving a 50w linear and inverted V antenna, I work about anyone I hear.

With my other 4w homebrew transceiver and inverted V antenna I listen and call and on occasion manage to work someone.

Which one should give me the greatest personal QRP satisfaction of the two?


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on June 27, 2013, 09:37:15 PM
4B:  Excellent dissertation.  

With my 4w output CW transceiver and 9db gain Yagi I work just about everyone I hear.

With my 2w homebrew transceiver driving a 50w linear and inverted V antenna, I work about anyone I hear.

With my other 4w homebrew transceiver and inverted V antenna I listen and call and on occasion manage to work someone.

Which one should give me the greatest personal QRP satisfaction of the two?

Obviously only you can determine the answer to that question.
I get great satisfaction out of all my QRP contacts. My most memorable QSO's come from different power levels, antennas, distance, etc...
For instance a couple years ago when condx were really good I worked on (and finished) working DXCC running milliwatts with a Sierra and a windom. Many of the QSOs were on the high bands (which I expected) and while I enjoyed knocking DXCC milliwatt out one by one, I can't say anyone of them was my most satisfying QRP QSO.
On the other hand some of my most satisfying were:
 - An 80 meter QSO with a VQ9 station (5 watts and a windom)
 - a 2 way milliwatt QSO with HK3CQ. We were both running Rock Mites @ 500 mW and beams
 - AA1TJ/QRPp - he was running 40 mW
 - Working a new one with my HW-9 - I so enjoy running the HW-9. I jumped with joy when I got 7O6T (4/3 watts and a beam or wire depending on band)
 - VU2BK - I chased that one for days. This was before the internet. I wrote down what time he came on the air, tracked him, and waited for my chance. It had to be a day when 10 meters opened up really early and I had to be the first one there or I would get stomped on by the QRO stations. 5 watts and a beam
 - 6O0CW - I broke a big wide pile up after figuring out he was only using 2 receive freqs and alternating between them (5 watts and a windom on 30M)
And many more, too many to list.
And one when I had to run 12 watts to make the QSO. A French ham needed TN for WAS and sent an email asking for a sked. He couldn't hear me at 5 watts, but I cranked the K2 up to 12 and made the QSO. But that was about him finishing WAS and not about me running QRP and it was a pleasure to make the QSO.

So, for me, power and/or antenna don't necessarily determine the most satisfying QRP QSO.

Now, do you want to talk about the biggest disappointments?  ;D ;D ;D



Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: WA2TPU on June 27, 2013, 10:11:13 PM
To WG5G........
First off....

Congratulations! My sincere congratulations to you Dan. I tip my hat to you. GREAT JOB!!

Next.....I happened to be looking-up a few words in the dictionary the other day because one of my grandsons was here.....and poised some questions to me that I could only explain by their definitions....well...to make a long story short...

"Beauty" was one of the words that I had to explain to him in depth.

 Dan.....OMG I WAS SHOCKED WHEN I GOT TO THE PAGE THAT WORD "Beauty" was on.....

THERE WAS A PHOTO OF YOUR ANTENNA Dan!! OH MERCY!!

Again, CONGRATULATIONS DAN ON YOUR WIN IN THE CONTEST.

Best regards with many 72....73.
Don sr.-- WA2TPU/QRP -- FOREVER!! Currently off the air...I'VE  LOST MY BEAUTIES!!


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AA9G on June 28, 2013, 05:06:49 AM
Truly I cannot believe some of you all are critical of the mans antenna. WTF is he supposed to feed? a Dummy load? Should he just route his signal into a ground rod? 
His antenna is none of YOUR GD business!! Personally I applaud him for understanding the parameters he is allowed to function under and maximizing his station accordingly.
Thats what we as hams are all supposed to be doing and not sitting around like a bunch of hand wringing grannies posting pictures and snide comments.
Seriously, get a life if thats the best you can contribute to this forum and get it elsewhere!


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K8AXW on June 28, 2013, 09:28:05 AM
Quote
Truly I cannot believe some of you all are critical of the mans antenna. WTF is he supposed to feed? a Dummy load? Should he just route his signal into a ground rod? 
His antenna is none of YOUR GD business!!

Quote
Seriously, get a life if thats the best you can contribute to this forum and get it elsewhere!

EEB: Obviously, you're distraught.  So far this has been a reasonable discussion, basically about differences of opinion revolving around QRP operation with a wire antenna or with a gain antenna like a beam. I'm really sorry you missed that point. There really isn't any need to get emotional.

4B:  I'm extremely impressed by your skill and patience!  Especially with your QRPp work and operation with the wire antennas. 

I stopped using my 4w transceiver and Yagi because I (personally) felt no accomplishment when making European contacts.  As I noted, if I could hear them, then I was able to work them....... most of the time.

What I never had sense (ambition?) enough to do was do buy or build a transceiver that put out less than a watt to feed my Yagi.  With feedline loss vs. antenna gain, then I would be using 5w or less with the antenna improvement that some are talking about here.

Anyone for changing the rules for QRP operation??  Power output or ERP????









Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: N9AOP on June 28, 2013, 11:06:28 AM
Question-
I don't have a 4 or 5 band quad at 60 feet, only a TFD.  If I run my 5 watts through an ALPHA to obtain the same ERP, would I still be QRP?


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AA9G on June 28, 2013, 11:40:29 AM
This 'discussion' became unreasonable the moment some pathetic lamer decided they had nothing better to do then go poking around into what antenna the OP uses and then post that info here, followed by yet another loser who felt compelled to give us a homesnap link of said property.
Truly it makes me want to move and then renew with a PO Box address.
 I went hunting for a definition of QRP...I've YET to come across anything other than it's 5 watts or less power at the transmitter output and in fact I've come across a presentation on (I think) the New Jersey Club site that makes it pretty clear that not only are directive antennas ok, they are highly desirable. (gasp!)

No I'm not distraught, I'm angry, attacking his antenna (which looks pretty homebrew to me, makes me wonder if the attack dogs aren't just jealous cause they can't make one) and posting that crap was the height of petty lameness and gross stupidity.
And it's ECHO ECHO VICTOR.  ;D


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on June 28, 2013, 11:57:05 AM
Question-
I don't have a 4 or 5 band quad at 60 feet, only a TFD.  If I run my 5 watts through an ALPHA to obtain the same ERP, would I still be QRP?

Not by any generally accepted definition of QRP.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: W1JKA on June 28, 2013, 01:53:46 PM
Perhaps any further discussion would be more appropriate in the REPEATERS forum.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on June 28, 2013, 03:38:50 PM
Quote
Truly I cannot believe some of you all are critical of the mans antenna. WTF is he supposed to feed? a Dummy load? Should he just route his signal into a ground rod?  
His antenna is none of YOUR GD business!!

Quote
Seriously, get a life if thats the best you can contribute to this forum and get it elsewhere!

EEB: Obviously, you're distraught.  So far this has been a reasonable discussion, basically about differences of opinion revolving around QRP operation with a wire antenna or with a gain antenna like a beam. I'm really sorry you missed that point. There really isn't any need to get emotional.

4B:  I'm extremely impressed by your skill and patience!  Especially with your QRPp work and operation with the wire antennas.  

I stopped using my 4w transceiver and Yagi because I (personally) felt no accomplishment when making European contacts.  As I noted, if I could hear them, then I was able to work them....... most of the time.

What I never had sense (ambition?) enough to do was do buy or build a transceiver that put out less than a watt to feed my Yagi.  With feedline loss vs. antenna gain, then I would be using 5w or less with the antenna improvement that some are talking about here.

Anyone for changing the rules for QRP operation??  Power output or ERP????







I would fall into the power output category, obviously.  ;D

  I noticed you indicated it was so commonplace to QSO EU running 4 watts to a yagi its almost boring. (And it is commonplace from the east coast.) It seems to me that you are confirming the underlying concept behind the QRP movement. A concept that is found in our own FCC rules and regs. That, of course, is to use the minimum power needed to make and complete the contact.

  While many of us are dedicated QRPers (running 5 watts and under), the majority of hams out there are not. In fact many, if not most, would use the maximum power available. And that maximum power could be a 100 watt transmitter - so I'm not necessarily talking about amps.  (From a DX'ing standpoint the majority of the time DX'ers are not using maximum power to initiate and complete the contact, they are using this power to outgun the next guy calling, who is trying to outgun the next guy, who is trying to outgun everybody else... resulting in a vicious circle of increasing power only limited by the power limitation of the license (at least hopefully). And the result of that is a huge waste of energy, an inefficient use of band space, unneeded interference, etc... and I haven't got to RF exposure yet.  ;D)

 And while that are many exciting and rewarding QRP activities like building QRP kits, designing QRP rigs, hiking/backpacking, milliwatting, improving antenna systems, building solar powered stations, and on and on and on, what is it we want to convey to the rest of the amateur community?
I don't think that its necessarily some strict definition of power output or ERP or antenna limitations. I think its the idea that for any given station (including antennas) there's a good chance that cutting the power out would result in just about as many successful QSO's as using the max power available. That may be going from 1500 watts to 750 watts, or 1000 watts to 500 watts, or 100 watts to 50 watts, etc.. Its about the concept that increased power out is not a good substitute for good operating practices. Its about a good, efficient antenna system, whether a dipole or yagi or other antenna, is a good substitute for increased transmitter power output. Can we show that non QRP ham running 100 watts to a standard 3 element tribander that 50 watts will work just as well in most cases?
It seems to me transmitter power out is an easier concept to grasp and measure than the ERP off the antenna.

I exchanged a couple posts with Chuck, NI0C,  (who by the way is a heck of a nice guy) about a couple contacts he had with T32C on 80 meters. He made his first QSO running high power, then was really happy about making an 80 meter 5 watt QSO with them. I pointed out (jokingly actually) that he should have started with 5 watts, then go to the higher power if 5 watts wasn't successful.  (For those of you not familiar with the T32C operation, the expedition lasted for quite a while and they made a couple hundred thousand QSOs so there was plenty of dead time to dupe a QSO with lower power). I think this was a new country for him on 80. Now I'm not saying 5 watts was the right power out to ensure a contact, but we (the ham community as a whole) have come to believe higher power (or the highest power available) is better. And that is not the case for a variety of reasons, many which I listed above.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K8AXW on June 28, 2013, 05:40:35 PM
4B:  You've given me a great deal to digest OM.  Considering your expertise with QRP operation which also seems to be the majority opinion on this forum, perhaps it's time I reevaluate my opinion(s). 

I'll get back on this in the morning.

EEV.... ECHO ECHO VICTOR... I apologize for the finger slip on the keyboard.  It seems you're having an identity crisis of some sort... since your present call is W5DCG. 

As for being "angry" over this back and forth?  you gotta be kiddin me!  Who'n the hell are you to be angry?  Nobody rattled your cage!  I didn't detect any hostility; just good natured needling toward WG5G besides I doubt if he needs anyone to defend him.  You really should get a grip OM.  Ssshhheeechh!



Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K8AXW on June 29, 2013, 09:35:19 AM
NU4B:  OK, I've given this whole discussion a GREAT deal of thought last night and again this morning.

I've concluded that my narrow minded opinions need reevaluating.  I seem to have lost sight of the fact that low power is low power and the antenna is whatever you can hang on to the transmitter. 

One comment from someone about running the QRP transmitter into a dummy load or ground rod suddenly made sense to me. 

I seemed to be under the impression that the purpose of QRP was to do what could be done with 5w or less to a wet noodle. 

So, looks like it's time to dust off the DSW-20-II and hang it back on the Yagi and feel better about the results.

I appreciate all the patient comments posted here.  For the most part.  At any rate, message received.

73

Al - K8AXW


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on June 29, 2013, 10:49:20 AM
NU4B:  OK, I've given this whole discussion a GREAT deal of thought last night and again this morning.

I've concluded that my narrow minded opinions need reevaluating.  I seem to have lost sight of the fact that low power is low power and the antenna is whatever you can hang on to the transmitter. 

One comment from someone about running the QRP transmitter into a dummy load or ground rod suddenly made sense to me. 

I seemed to be under the impression that the purpose of QRP was to do what could be done with 5w or less to a wet noodle. 

So, looks like it's time to dust off the DSW-20-II and hang it back on the Yagi and feel better about the results.

I appreciate all the patient comments posted here.  For the most part.  At any rate, message received.

73

Al - K8AXW

Ah, the DSW-20-II, I built one of those. A fine rig. I sold mine and wish I hadn't. I know I can't hold on to all my rigs, but sometimes I hate when I sell them. Fortunately QRP rigs are fairly small these days so they don't take up a lot of space.  ;D

There's nothing wrong with a wet noodle, but sometimes you need more. Don't add power, crank up that yagi and let it do the work.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Good luck and I hope you have many fine QRP QSOs.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: K8AXW on June 29, 2013, 09:17:38 PM
4B:  The DSW-20-II is indeed a fine little rig....but I hate the indented encoder.  Don't suppose you know of any mods to replace the indented encoder with a smooth tuning one???

While building my TAK-40 (ARRLHBC I) I built an encoder then put a smooth commercial unit on.  I mention this because I learned through this process that there are many kinds of encoders and unless you know what you're doing, it ain't gonna work!


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on June 30, 2013, 04:37:16 AM
4B:  The DSW-20-II is indeed a fine little rig....but I hate the indented encoder.  Don't suppose you know of any mods to replace the indented encoder with a smooth tuning one???

While building my TAK-40 (ARRLHBC I) I built an encoder then put a smooth commercial unit on.  I mention this because I learned through this process that there are many kinds of encoders and unless you know what you're doing, it ain't gonna work!

No, I don't know of any mods. It was a few years back. Have you checked to see if there is a Yahoo user's group? If they do, that would be the first place to start looking. Or maybe start a new topic in this forum?

73, Larry NU4B


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: W4KVW on June 30, 2013, 11:01:13 AM
DAN,I'm NOT sure they heard you but I'd suggest turning than MONSTER Quad towards them & turning ON the AMPLIFIER (QRO) so you can BUST that HUGE pileup.That is them that I hear so many calling I think because they keep saying,"CQ CQ CQ This is ..... calling CQ & standing by. LOL

Life's to short for QRP. QRO BABY QRO!  ;)   :)   ;D  }:>)  {:>)

Clayton
W4KVW


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: KX4OM on June 30, 2013, 12:39:21 PM
Let's change all contest rules to deduct points for operating an:

1) Antenna with gain over an isotropic dipole radiator in free space
2) Antenna with height over terrain referenced to Death Valley
3) Antenna without obstruction of trees or structures within 10 wavelengths of operating frequency
4) Antenna located within 1 km of a body of saltwater; and proof that subsurface groundwater within 1/4 wavelength depth of surface soil is not saline or brackish
5) Antenna that is visible from the property line

Also, lets mandate that:

1) Antenna masts and radiating element structures must be constructed from bamboo, a highly renewable natural resource
2) The final PEP power output of the transmitter must be equal to or better than 80 percent of power input (Class E, or possibly Class D operation)
3) Supports and guy wires for masts and wire antennas must be rope made from hemp, a renewable resource that will be increasing in availability in California and Colorado.

That's a start. The NSA may have additional tippy-top secret, burn-before-reading requirements that cannot be disclosed through the FCC or your local congressman.




Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: KD4TVB on June 30, 2013, 06:11:59 PM
Hi QRPers,

If you would like a web site to list all your QRP contest just let me know.
I have made a few contacts on ten meters QRP and it can be a lot of fun.
I have heard some stations on 40 meters drop the power back to 50, 10 & 5 watts and could still here them even thow there signal dropped a lot.

Best 73,
Charles,
KD4TVB,
ncphotos@gmail.com,



Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AA4GA on June 30, 2013, 08:12:45 PM
Hey Dan - congrats on the win...I'm not familiar with that CQ program, so I'll have to look it up.

Sorry I missed out on all the fireworks so far, but am glad to see that the point was made that QRP has nothing to do with antennas.  Nothing. 

Do a lot of folks who run QRP also run inefficient antennas and take pride from their accomplishments with those antennas?  Yes, and rightly so.

But no one should ever be made to feel bad because they're a QRPer running a big antenna. 

I also think that a lot of folks think that the gain from those super antennas provides a greater advantage than is really the case.  It's a pretty rare HF Yagi that gives more than about 6dBd or so gain.  K8NA said one time something to the effect of "Once you put up a tribander, you're most likely within 6 dB of the maximum gain no matter what else you put up".  RX directivity and angle of radiation are at least as important as gain for most antenna installations.  You get a lower angle of radiation from antenna height - should we say the QRPers who put up dipoles at 100' aren't playing fair compared to those with dipoles at 30'?

I've worked almost all areas of the world with 5 Watts and an 80m doublet up about 45', I'm missing 4 or 5 CQ Zones...I'm sure they'll come with the right propagation one day - QRP with small-ish antennas works.  Large DXCC totals come from patience - the flea-powered stations are capable of completing the path, it's just whether or not one can make it through the competition. 

And, I'm aware that many, if not most, hams (especially QRPers) are just happy with the achievement and aren't looking for wallpaper or recognition.  But, some are, and no problem with that either.

Isn't it about time for "Zenki" to come in here and complain that 5 Watts should not be the measure of QRP...


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AA4GA on June 30, 2013, 08:21:06 PM
Hey Dan - congrats on the win...I'm not familiar with that CQ program, so I'll have to look it up.

Sorry I missed out on all the fireworks so far, but am glad to see that the point was made that QRP has nothing to do with antennas.  Nothing. 

Do a lot of folks who run QRP also run inefficient antennas and take pride from their accomplishments with those antennas?  Yes, and rightly so.

But no one should ever be made to feel bad because they're a QRPer running a big antenna. 

I also think that a lot of folks think that the gain from those super antennas provides a greater advantage than is really the case.  It's a pretty rare HF Yagi that gives more than about 6dBd or so gain.  K8CC said one time something to the effect of "Once you put up a tribander, you're most likely within 6 dB of the maximum gain no matter what else you put up".  RX directivity and angle of radiation are at least as important as gain for most antenna installations.  You get a lower angle of radiation from antenna height - should we say the QRPers who put up dipoles at 100' aren't playing fair compared to those with dipoles at 30'?

I've worked almost all areas of the world with 5 Watts and an 80m doublet up about 45', I'm missing 4 or 5 CQ Zones...I'm sure they'll come with the right propagation one day - QRP with small-ish antennas works.  Large DXCC totals come from patience - the flea-powered stations are capable of completing the path, it's just whether or not one can make it through the competition. 

And, I'm aware that many, if not most, hams (especially QRPers) are just happy with the achievement and aren't looking for wallpaper or recognition.  But, some are, and no problem with that either.

Isn't it about time for "Zenki" to come in here and complain that 5 Watts should not be the measure of QRP...


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: ZENKI on July 05, 2013, 06:46:12 PM
Well I will stop complaining about 5 watts of output power when the wider QRP community acknowledges  the effectiveness and gain of the receiving stations antennas.
Taking all the credit for making a 5 watts SSB QSO and failing to state what the receiving stations antenna was  is not a very ethical practice.
I dont see many QRP stations bragging about how they  contacted another QRP station running 5 watts and a attic dipole or hamstick clipped to the house guttering.

The rules of physics cant be  bent and you guys with your one  way QRP super station mentality are really misleading a lot of people.

I will repeat nobody said that it cant be done, there are hams doing it every day  through pot luck  and the great receiving stations and antennas  rather than the effectiveness of 5 watts and poor antennas.

SO the  facts still remain 5 watts is good CW power and 20 to 30 watts is the equivalent effective SSB QRP power that allows routine effective communications even with stations using  average antennas. You tube is full of videos of this misleading brag  rights  like "100mw contact with K3LR" Do they  ever  acknowledge the massive antenna gain factor  from stacked yagis that allows K3LR  to pick their callsigns out of a pileup  on the first call? No they dont. Its easy being a legend in your own mind on your own island.

I am not anti QRP like you think. I do a lot of operating with my QRP radios. My favorite and most effective radio is my HF manpack with 20 watts of output power. If I could do it in  an effective manner on SSB with 5 watts I would certainly know about it and also be so excited about it. I know reality is different and more power like 20 watts make the whole experience more exciting and rewarding. If I wanted to  beat my head against  brick wall in a consistent manner I would use 5 watts. With 20 watts I can almost guarantee a 99% success rate and who would argue with that success rate!

WOW and even a calibrated S-meter. Wheres the 10,000  radio apologists now who constantly whine that calibrating a S-meter on an expensive radio is so hard?
Palstar has already put these expensive radios to shame on 2 fronts. Great achievements from Palstar.



Hey Dan - congrats on the win...I'm not familiar with that CQ program, so I'll have to look it up.

Sorry I missed out on all the fireworks so far, but am glad to see that the point was made that QRP has nothing to do with antennas.  Nothing.  

Do a lot of folks who run QRP also run inefficient antennas and take pride from their accomplishments with those antennas?  Yes, and rightly so.

But no one should ever be made to feel bad because they're a QRPer running a big antenna.  

I also think that a lot of folks think that the gain from those super antennas provides a greater advantage than is really the case.  It's a pretty rare HF Yagi that gives more than about 6dBd or so gain.  K8CC said one time something to the effect of "Once you put up a tribander, you're most likely within 6 dB of the maximum gain no matter what else you put up".  RX directivity and angle of radiation are at least as important as gain for most antenna installations.  You get a lower angle of radiation from antenna height - should we say the QRPers who put up dipoles at 100' aren't playing fair compared to those with dipoles at 30'?

I've worked almost all areas of the world with 5 Watts and an 80m doublet up about 45', I'm missing 4 or 5 CQ Zones...I'm sure they'll come with the right propagation one day - QRP with small-ish antennas works.  Large DXCC totals come from patience - the flea-powered stations are capable of completing the path, it's just whether or not one can make it through the competition.  

And, I'm aware that many, if not most, hams (especially QRPers) are just happy with the achievement and aren't looking for wallpaper or recognition.  But, some are, and no problem with that either.

Isn't it about time for "Zenki" to come in here and complain that 5 Watts should not be the measure of QRP...


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: W7ASA on July 06, 2013, 05:29:08 PM
Right on time.   ::)


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: WA2TPU on July 06, 2013, 06:53:51 PM
Indeed!


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AD6KA on July 07, 2013, 10:22:27 AM
Well I will stop complaining about 5 watts of output power when the wider QRP community acknowledges  the effectiveness and gain of the receiving stations antennas.

Taking all the credit for making a 5 watts SSB QSO and failing to state what the receiving stations antenna was  is not a very ethical practice.

I dint see many QRP stations bragging about how they  contacted another QRP station running 5 watts and a attic dipole or hamstick clipped to the house guttering.

I agree.Come on you guys, (QRP'ers, of which I dabble in)
stop taking yourselves so damn seriously.
Like that you are "better" than ops running 100w or more.

And don't you get sick of the "I worked the XXXX DXpedition
with my FT-817, powered by 4 hearing aid batteries, and a Buddy
Pole"
  stories?  ::) I know I do. You know why?:
Sometimes the Propagation Gods just smile on you.

It doesn't mean you are a "QRP Badass",
it means you GOT LUCKY!!


SOME QRP Operations take REAL SKILLLS:,
Like the CW QRP Ops who build their Own Rigs,
build their Own Antennas

then take them out in the woods.......

"SECOND RATE TREATMENT?"
WAHHHHHHHHHHH! Mommy, mommy,
these guys are picking on me!

Grow up. It's only a hobby!
73,Ken   AD6KA


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: N3HFS on July 07, 2013, 11:46:08 AM
I couldn't bring myself to read this entire thread.

Voluntarily operating QRP is nothing more than a challenge; "How effective can I be at communicating while using a limited amount of output power?"

If you happen to find this controversial, poor practice, annoying, or whatever, then just go and find your own challenges.  I guarantee that someone could find a way to criticize and minimize your achievements!

I almost expect to go to philatelist forums to find stamp collectors that are really pissed at others who collect official "Return to Sender" markings because they're somehow not stamps.

Unfortunately, this entire forum system is so infested with naysayers, better-than-thou's, and bloviated opinionators that reading through such tripe simply makes one feel filthy.  I'll assume that some of these posters' end goal is to make everyone else go away so that they can "win."


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on July 07, 2013, 01:38:33 PM
Quote
I agree.Come on you guys, (QRP'ers, of which I dabble in)
stop taking yourselves so damn seriously.
Like that you are "better" than ops running 100w or more.

I don't remember anybody saying they were better than 100 watt ops - other than you. I will bet that any DXer or contester that operates strictly QRP for a year or two will be a better Dxer/contester when they return to their original power level.

Quote
And don't you get sick of the "I worked the XXXX DXpedition
with my FT-817, powered by 4 hearing aid batteries, and a Buddy
Pole"  stories?  Roll Eyes I know I do. You know why?:
Sometimes the Propagation Gods  just smile on you.

It doesn't mean you are a "QRP Badass",
it means you GOT LUCKY!!

Lucky? Really? I do enjoy hearing these stories. In fact I bet most serious DXers, no matter what their power level, love to tell their "war" stories. Any Dxer, no matter what the power level, will tell you knowledge of propagation (the more knowledge the better) is integral to successful DXing. You should read "The Complete DXer" by W9KNI. See if you can find any reference to propagation. Do you know why the propagation gods smiled? Because somebody knows what he's doing and is not a complete DX dunce. This may come as a shock to you, but all DXers (whatever the power level) use propagation to their benefit. Propagation gods smile when you use them to your benefit  ;D. They frown when you don't  >:(.

Quote
SOME QRP Operations take REAL SKILLLS:,  
Like the CW QRP Ops who build their Own Rigs,
build their Own Antennas
then take them out in the woods.......

.... and what? what's the point?



Quote
"SECOND RATE TREATMENT?"
WAHHHHHHHHHHH! Mommy, mommy,
these guys are picking on me!
Grow up. It's only a hobby!

Technically its the Amateur Radio Service. A bit more serious than a hobby. In any case, DXing is a hobby within the service. As I have been involved at different times in different hobbies and amateur sports - people do take their hobbies seriously within the world of that particular hobby. There are very serious stamp collectors, coin collectors, etc... (and some very serious DXers). When you get in a pick up game of basketball, or volleyball, or whatever you play to win. When I enter a racquetball tournament its an amateur event, but there are people that keep score and they give out trophies to those that win their division. I play for fun... but I'm playing to win - just like everybody else out there. And if somebody feels like they got screwed because of a bad call, it hurts. Its human nature - I hope you can figure that out.

CQ runs the DX Marathon and set up two divisions within the Formula Class. Dan, WG5G, entered and won the QRP division and was basically snubbed in the write up in CQ Magazine, which was the basis for the post.

Since this is a QRP forum, a place where you can write about just about any topic about QRP operation, this is an appropriate place to talk about it. (I know if I brought up the subject with my mother, she wouldn't have a clue as to what I was talking about. ;D) Its kind of like a bad call in an amateur sports tournament. The people you are naturally going to talk to about it are your buddies who you play sports with. Its not about running to your mother. Its a fairly east concept to follow especially if you have contact with other humans.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: W7ASA on July 07, 2013, 07:56:10 PM
Wow, Franz!  

Your quote:

"... this entire forum system is so infested with naysayers, better-than-thou's, and bloviated opinionators that reading through such tripe..."

That is some excellent word smithing! Even better, it's quite true and I now have a wonderful word to use, especially where politicians are involved: "bloviated". Moo-ha-ha-ha, how deliciously descriptive.  


73 de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._



 


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: ZENKI on July 08, 2013, 01:51:47 AM
The objective of the exercise  is getting the message through or communicating. Its not about making life impossible by banging your head against the laws of physics.

Many QRP operators simply dont want to acknowledge the fact that modes like CW and PSK have a huge SNR advantage over SSB when using low power.  Some of the ridiculous arguments against higher power
for QRP SSB is the assumption that SSB is just as effective as the other low power modes. This line of argument is technically incorrect.  

QRP CW and PSK operators can rest on their laurels that what they are doing is correct and achieving QSO's is technically possible with the low power. On SSB its different. and the correct way to over come this handicap of a wide bandwidth mode is to increase the power. You reduce the bandwidth by half and you increase the signal to noise ration by 10db+-. Thats just the laws of physics.

I cant really understand why QRP operators see this an attack on their chosen operating mode. Its really an argument for making  QRP operation on SSB more realistic and a more  dependable mode like CW, PSK and other weak signal modes. Again just nominating some  arbitrary output power because contest rules say so and without applying a weighting factor for mode is not a good way  of making things fair. You can clearly see this in the QRP contest scores, typical CW  QSO rates are almost double those on SSB which is no surprise.

The bottom line is that the low power SSB QRP output power should be set to make communications realistic and effective without relying too much on stations with exceptional low noise QTH's and spectacular antennas. With a power output of 20 to 25 watts on SSB, reliable QSO quality communications can be had with a wide number of ham stations with  every possible antenna system. On SSB this power level will match the SNR  advantage of a mode like CW. Its really  very simple and there is no reason to see these arguments as an attack on the QRP philosophy, its about restoring balance and technical fairness.

If manufacturers used 25 watts as the target power for the low power QRP radios  more people would enjoy portable and QRP operation. At the end of day you can always reduce your power to whatever level you want. Just being stubborn and bloody minded about some power reference that was set by a  contest committee and not technical experts is  ridiculous. QRP contest rules regarding QRP power levels on  SSB be changed to more correctly reflect the effectiveness of the mode on low power.  Rather than going on the attack and  and having a siege mentality about this being an attack on QRP,  you better off prosecuting your case for a arbitary power level like 5 watts on SSB in a technical manner. Since it seems many QRP operators dont understand this issue from a technical perspective i will leave it at that.

Another thing I will finally say is that a radio like the new Ten Tec  Argonaut 6 which has a  very good receiver for most operators would have been an excellent radio with a SSB power output of 25 watts. Many operators who know what a challenge 5 watt SSB is would have tried  QRP operation with 25 watts.  They also would have been more attracted to the radio because you did not need the messiness  and inconveniences of  an external 50 or 100 watt amplifier. 25 watts is all you need



Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AA4GA on July 09, 2013, 07:11:45 AM
Right on time.   ::)
Yeah, but it took bait!  ;-)


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AA4GA on July 09, 2013, 07:17:40 AM
I dont see many QRP stations bragging about how they  contacted another QRP station running 5 watts and a attic dipole or hamstick clipped to the house guttering.
Then you are obviously out of touch.  Most of the QRPers I know are trying to work other QRPers...with similar poor antennas!  It happens all the time.  That's why they gather on the QRP "watering hole" frequencies.  That's why there are such spotting mechanisms as qrpspots.com.  That's why there are so many QRP contests designed for QRPers to work each other.

Then, I'm not surprised you're out of touch...you apparently aren't even a licensed amateur evidenced by the fact that you never give your callsign.  All amateurs I know are actually proud of their callsigns....




Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: KE7TMA on July 10, 2013, 01:20:01 AM
Many QRP operators simply dont want to acknowledge the fact that modes like CW and PSK have a huge SNR advantage over SSB when using low power.

Which logical fallacy is this?  Straw man or argument from nothing.  Perhaps it's both at once.

Please gives us a list of maybe a dozen QRP operators who refuse to acknowledge that CW and PSk are more efficient than SSB.  Since you seem so familiar with these people it should be easy.

Anyway as you know, anything below 50w is worthless and you can't make contacts with 25w SSB, because all you end up doing is banging your head against the laws of physics...


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: WG5G on August 04, 2013, 12:59:59 PM
Well against my better judgement, I have decided to add one last comment to this thread, I have edited  my QRZ.COM page, have a look, 73/72 Dan WG5G.


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: NU4B on August 05, 2013, 03:26:01 AM
Well against my better judgement, I have decided to add one last comment to this thread, I have edited  my QRZ.COM page, have a look, 73/72 Dan WG5G.

Hey Dan,
 Neat stuff!!!

 - Larry, NU4B


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AE5X on August 06, 2013, 03:05:44 PM
Those of you who think Dan's DXing performance is all tied up in his quad might be interested in adding a bit of context to his story:
http://www.ae5x.com/blog/2012/09/07/from-sardine-sender-to-dxcc-honor-roll-in-10-years-qrp/

In summary, Dan worked 216 entities with a 2-element Yagi up 35 feet. Later, a 2-element quad took him to 300 entities. As impressive as his 5-el quad is, much simpler antennas did the lion's share of the work at WG5G

John AE5X


Title: RE: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.
Post by: AE5X on August 07, 2013, 05:19:00 AM
Grow up. It's only a hobby!
73,Ken   AD6KA

Only a hobby! That's a phrase that always makes me chuckle - thanks Ken!

An upcoming DXpedition to Heard is projected to cost $400,000. Others have cost as much (or more), ham organzations create awards programs, individuals and groups participate in contests for which they've finely tuned their stations at great expense and effort...but it's "only" a hobby.

Sorry, Ken, but a simplistic turning of words in order to belittle someone's devoted interest in a pursuit only belittles the speaker.

John AE5X