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eHam Forums => Good Seller / Buyer Beware => Topic started by: W4CDI on August 21, 2013, 01:13:04 PM



Title: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W4CDI on August 21, 2013, 01:13:04 PM
What’s happing in Ham Radio these days, Where has honesty amount hams gone. I’ve been in this hobby for 50yrs. and it appears trust among us is getting worst. My latest dealing is with W9YQ Tom Manthel, Odenville, Al. Ph 214 728 7248. Bought an Amp from him. got home turned it on and it blew fuse. Checked out and found 1 shorted filter cap, 2 leaking. called Tom told him about the problem. advised him it would take about $70 to correct. would u be willing to pick up $30 on repairs. He agreed. Called 3 times e-mail 4 times no response. It’s not the $30, It’s the dishonesty that burns me. W4CDI Doug :twisted: :(


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: WI8P on August 21, 2013, 01:33:14 PM
I'm not sticking up for the guy, but is it possible he's on vacation or otherwise indisposed?


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W4CDI on August 21, 2013, 08:22:15 PM
NOP, Talked to him on the ph twice, him telling me that he was going to send funds


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: K1CJS on August 22, 2013, 06:14:40 AM
It isn't only honesty among hams--it's honesty in general.  Seems that the feeling of 'get the most you can get and to heck with the other guy' is now the rule rather than the exception.  Sad, but remember--there are exceptions!


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: N9LCD on August 22, 2013, 07:31:08 AM
Dishonesty isn't anything new.  The Bravo Sierra at fests in the 80's was as deep as it is online today.  Especially if you weren't licensed.  I'd swear that they took extra pleasure in screwing SWL'ers or hobbyists.

N9LCD

 >:(


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W1JKA on August 22, 2013, 08:31:09 AM
  Fortunately Honesty still exists, unfortunately certain individuals have taken a queue from politicians and discovered the more lucrative return from the word Greed.


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: KD0REQ on August 22, 2013, 08:32:41 AM
speaking of the 80s, "trust... but verify" is as good advice at hamfests as it was monitoring Soviet missle installations.  I haven't been stung much, or for a lot of dough, but I only go after stuff that I know I can fix if I got lied to.


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: KA2CDT on August 22, 2013, 08:52:16 AM
Similar thing happened to me a couple of years ago. I purchased a Drake MN-2700 from a ham via QTH classifieds. I paid top dollar for it because it was in mint condition. Needless to say the tuner arrived damaged from improper packaging when shipped. It was no big deal, the bezel around the meter was cracked in pieces and the meter itself was broken off the mount. I repaired the mount myself but did take a picture beforehand and sent it to the seller explaining the damage. He was very prompt in answering me and said that he would make good on the bezel. I told him to just send me $20 back and that should be enough to find one on line. He agreed again to take care of it. Well long story short that was the last time I ever heard from him again. I know he is still around because I occasionally see him selling Drake gear on ebay (with great feedback) so go figure.

The bright spot out of all this was that after I placed an ad on QTH for a replacement bezel I found one sent to me free of charge sitting in my mailbox from a ham named Lee K4LJP. The lesson here is that with every dishonest ham there is a very honest ham out there ready to help you!


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W9BB on August 22, 2013, 11:01:04 AM
I can give you an example of the opposite.  I parted with a practically new radio to an older op, it worked 100%, and 100% of the time.  He pesters me to ship it ship it ship it, ahead of any fund mind you, I ask him to meet me on the air to give him a demo to hear it...never shows up, so being a generous person, I go ahead and box it up, after making numerous contacts with it (logged) so he would have it in time for the weekend as he pestered me for.

He gets the unit like the next day and I get the funds like 2-3 days after that.  After about a week, he tells me it isn't for him he is going to sell it.  That is his right, odd but okay.  They he comes back after that and tells me it doesn't work right.  Like how?  He says his "buddies" tell him they can barely hear him, the audio is low (this is not a plug and play radio - there are multiple settings you have to do to get it to play - it was set up for my headset and he was attempting the stock hand mic - totally different audio levels).  A couple more days go by, and now he tells me I should help on the "repair".  What repair?  He went and shot it off without talking to me to some small repair shop.  Albeit, the guy may be okay (I have no experience with him) but this is current model and likely he hasn't touched one).  Back and forth it goes, his emails (which he likes to throw in a bible verse at the end) are more and more accusatory, "if I had known", "guess I am screwed", "you knew the radio didn't work", etc.

I can confirm just looking at all the log entries the signal reports were appropriate and solicitied audio reports were excellent.  Is it possible UPS hard dropped it and knocked something ajar internally?  Could he have passed rf into the radio thru a hasty hook up?  Who knows.


I would have recommended sending it back to the OEM and let them check it out.  The tech he used has no cluse as it worked on the bench and then acted up the next time, but a totally different description from what this guys was to me.  What gives?  The two decsriptions are totally contrary.

Anyway, reluctantly I agreed to pay one hours labor on the OEM review/repair (doubt it needs repair unless he damaged it).  He even went so far as expecting I should take it back, refund his money, etc.  No way.  Not on a totally functional radio that he likelly messed up or shipping did.  Offering to pay for 1 hours labor on something is more then enough.

All this an spewing bible verses, yet slandering, threatening,  lying about the radio, etc.  I think from now on, I may just use Ebay for high dollar items and stick to less tan $100 dollar items on these swapboards.  
This guy really offends me talking one way and being like the majority of the world....sad but true.

Honesty, integrity, character...sure seems a thing of past days.....from what I read between the line with this character, it is likely in some manner, he damaged the radio.  That is not my responisbility.  If you get something from me, and it doesn't work out of the box, I would talk about working on some resolution, but he went on "using" it for like a week or more, initially telling me he didn't like the unit and was going to sell it, then suddenly, it has this "issue" .  So it is off to the OEM.  Hoepfully, he didn't fry the thing.  about 95% of it is functionaly, on the SSB transmission part, which is what he was attemtping to use....



Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: WI8P on August 22, 2013, 11:46:23 AM
I'm not sticking up for the guy, but is it possible he's on vacation or otherwise indisposed?

Sorry to hear that.  There are 'clunkers' in all hobbies and I've dealt with or seen my share.  While I am a firm believer in Karma, there have been times I'd like to give Karma a hand in giving someone what they have coming to them!


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W9BB on September 03, 2013, 10:23:26 AM
The character I had the unfortunately opportunity to "deal" with accused me of selling him a defective item, an item that is less than 1 year old and was in use up to and including the day I packed it up for him.   I reluctantly agreed, over a week or more after the transaction, to pay for 1 hours labor checking the unit out at the OEM, and to date, he never sent it.  I am smelling a likely incorrect hook up, etc. which I suspected, but at least my conscience is clear/clean.  I won't be answering this character's wants or "for sales" in the future for sure.   Sad but true, but these types of individuals are out there....what a rip off.


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: NV9L on September 05, 2013, 12:28:31 PM
Uh-oh. I just listed my HF radio on here and on QTH.com. Sounds like I'm asking for trouble. >:(

Valerie ~ NV9L


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W9BB on September 06, 2013, 09:14:05 AM
You have to do a lot of "leg work" or homework to check on these characters....many times, you are okay...but get burned just once....your whole perception will change...

GL


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: K1CJS on September 07, 2013, 05:19:03 AM
You have to do a lot of "leg work" or homework to check on these characters....many times, you are okay...but get burned just once....your whole perception will change...

True enough, but if they 'make a profession' in being shady in their dealings, it will be easier and easier to find out about them.  Look at just two who have made the shady dealings star roundup here on this site--RadioMart and Donald Pinson!  And this particular subject forum is full of other examples.


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W9BB on September 07, 2013, 04:06:43 PM
So true.  I had a less than 1 year old 590 I had sold N5IZ, offered to give him an on the air demo, and to make a long story short, he got it, said it looked and worked great, about 5 days later informs me "it just isn't for him, he is going to sell it"...okay, whatever.  Shortly after, he tells me he decided to keep it.  Another week later, it suddenly has some issue.  Hmmm. Worked 100% here, every time, and now an "issue"?  He fires it off to some repair shop I don't use, they can't figure anything out (too new of a radio model likely), so supposedly, he sends it to Kenwood. 

I told him had he indicated an issue within the first 24-48 hours I might have worked with him, but after jacking with it for 2 weeks plus, no way.  Electronics, new or old is too susceptible to being damaged by an inexperienced user.  I sent him 1 hours cost in labor for Kenwood and told him I am done with it.  I don't warranty any gear but I leaned forward on it.   Likely he damaged it based upon some emails I waded thru, but holding on to something now a month and thinking you will get some refund, forget it.  I have been burned down that road with individuals damaging gear, removing parts, you name it. 

I won't be selling any radios on the swap boards any longer.  Would rather chance craigslist or ebay....


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: K1CJS on September 08, 2013, 05:52:15 AM
The only way to sell it at swap boards or auction sites is to sell the equipment 'as is.'  

Funny, but that's the ONLY way that E-bay will let you list used electronics for sale on their site.  Their two choices are equipment that is 'as is, in operational condition' or that is 'as is, non-operational, for parts only'.

Kinda tells you something right there, doesn't it.  


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W9BB on September 08, 2013, 10:10:38 AM
That tells a person that as a used item, anything could possibly happen 1 day after sale, 10 years after sale, or the buyer may honk the item up themselves....not sure how that protects the Seller, but at least I agree with Ebay on that. 


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: K1CJS on September 12, 2013, 05:57:02 AM
It really tells a buyer that the item is used and may or may not work properly due to a number of things--including damages incurred during shipping.  It's too bad that some unscrupulous sellers are using it otherwise--but that is the reason this thread is here.  Honesty, and the possible lack of it!


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: KE6CT on September 16, 2013, 02:33:47 PM
What’s happing in Ham Radio these days, Where has honesty amount hams gone. I’ve been in this hobby for 50yrs. and it appears trust among us is getting worst. My latest dealing is with W9YQ Tom Manthel, Odenville, Al. Ph 214 728 7248. Bought an Amp from him. got home turned it on and it blew fuse. Checked out and found 1 shorted filter cap, 2 leaking. called Tom told him about the problem. advised him it would take about $70 to correct. would u be willing to pick up $30 on repairs. He agreed. Called 3 times e-mail 4 times no response. It’s not the $30, It’s the dishonesty that burns me. W4CDI Doug :twisted: :(

It's not what's happening to ham radio, it's what's happening to people in general.  Gone are the days of business based on a handshake.  You just can't trust people anymore.  It's really too bad because there are still a few good people out there. 


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: VK3DWZ on September 21, 2013, 09:04:18 PM
Yes, there are dishonest fellows everywhere.  I've just been reading the August 1965 issue of "73" magazine and I noticed a note from the late Mr. Green in which he mentions a fellow borrowed an SX-73 of his.  The  fellow then promptly sold the receiver, and pocketed the money!


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W1JKA on September 22, 2013, 09:05:09 AM
  Look at the few bright spots:

  You can still trust a politician to be dishonest

   You can trust the dollar bill to make some people dishonest, the only person it won't is God because it says so.

    You can honestly trust that your annual cost of living will go up every year.

    You can still trust others who are honest with themselves.


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W9BB on September 24, 2013, 11:07:21 AM
Uh-oh. I just listed my HF radio on here and on QTH.com. Sounds like I'm asking for trouble. >:(

Valerie ~ NV9L


One piece of advise I may offer you.  Document, document, document, whatever it is you are listing/selling.  I sold N5IZ a practically brand new 590 and he accused me of selling him a radio that wasn't right, didn't work right, etc., etc.  It did work correctly and I don't even think Kenwood even did anything to it, other than a standard alignment, which they would do anyway.  Short story, I am out $200 becuase I chose to get the radio up to snuff, likely way over paid, and begged this guy to sell it to someone that will actually read the manual and learn how to use it.  I failed because I didn't document the radio enough (i.e. photos, videos, etc.).  Sure, I could have told him to cram it, but I would preferred to have seen this really nice radio in someone else's hands.  Well, he made out like a bandit.  $200 off me, now it's up for sale and he probably will make over $300 plus off it.  I could have kept it and should have.   Another life lesson learned, the hard way.  There were many red flags I missed because I was "hurried" by this guy.

Good luck and there are lots of good folks out there, just some of the crowd are less then stellar.  Wishing you the best.


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: WB6DGN on September 29, 2013, 06:08:11 PM
I don't sell any hobby equipment.  On occasion, when someone needs parts, I offer to send them FREE if person will pay shipping.  Otherwise, the equipment is totally disabled (a bottle of battery acid from the auto parts store works well) and sold for scrap (after being hosed off).  Too many problems any other way.  Sometimes its hard to destroy some of that neat equipment but, then, I just think of the headaches I've avoided.
Tom


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W9BB on September 29, 2013, 07:52:15 PM
So true and not unusual to feel that way...I am out $200 due to a stooge not knowing how to use a radio and because I didn't document enough, got burned...won't happen again!


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: K9MHZ on September 30, 2013, 08:20:42 AM
Yes, there are dishonest fellows everywhere.

Sad, but so true.  Dishonesty is as old as the human species.

Nobody likes getting taken advantage of, but many folks in our ranks do wander into situations that make them ripe for the picking, and then scream bloody murder and insist our collective indignation when something goes wrong....all to save a few bucks.  How many times have we seen a complaint about Radiomart on this forum?  

Buy new, buy used through auctions with buyer protections, buy from people you know or have some knowledge of, etc.

  


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: K7LZR on October 08, 2013, 12:17:13 AM
Do be careful selling on eBay, especially high dollar items. On eBay, the buyer has all advantages and can easily cheat you out of both your item AND the money.

All a buyer has to do is to file a SNAD (Significantly Not As Described) claim with eBay and PayPal, or claim that the item was not received. Think tracking & signature will help? uh-uh. Buyer can claim that only an empty box or box of rocks was received. Most of the time, eBay/PayPal will rule in favor of the buyer and seek a refund from you, the seller, especially if the buyer has paid with a credit card. In many cases they will get away with it.

eBay's "Seller Protection" is really a joke. Go and read the terms etc. and the methods used. Quite ineffective in most cases.

eBay is heavily biased in favor of buyers, and it has just gotten worse over the last 5 years or so.

If you want to sell, do it the old fashioned way as we did before the internet - advertise item, take paper payment ONLY unless you know and trust that the buyer won't later file a dishonest PayPal claim, and DON'T ship until payment is verified, cleared, and cannot be stopped or reversed.

If you are buying, then eBay is for you. TONS of rules etc. to make very sure that you are happy, honest or not.


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: KV4PL on October 08, 2013, 12:52:39 PM
I really hate getting anything on ebay. If I do, it's something that I can afford to loose. I know PayPal is can be a problem for sellers from unscrupulous buyers, but I wouldn't even look at a Item if PayPal isn't accepted. All I expect is to get what ever I'm buying in the condition it's advertised in and shipped in the time stated. I really don't want to hear about the sick dog, the grandmother that needs brain surgery, or how far it is to the post office. I've made many hobby purchases over the years and only had to file one dispute, and that was resolved before being escalated to a claim.  At least with PayPal if they're trying to screw you, you can put in a claim and if they are more than likely they won't accept PayPal.


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: WI8P on October 08, 2013, 04:05:38 PM
I really hate getting anything on ebay. If I do, it's something that I can afford to loose. I know PayPal is can be a problem for sellers from unscrupulous buyers, but I wouldn't even look at a Item if PayPal isn't accepted. All I expect is to get what ever I'm buying in the condition it's advertised in and shipped in the time stated. I really don't want to hear about the sick dog, the grandmother that needs brain surgery, or how far it is to the post office. I've made many hobby purchases over the years and only had to file one dispute, and that was resolved before being escalated to a claim.  At least with PayPal if they're trying to screw you, you can put in a claim and if they are more than likely they won't accept PayPal.

I've had over 250 transactions on ebay and only had a real problem once where I lost money. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I stay away from sellers who have low feedback numbers, bad feedback, and poorly written ads.


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: K9MHZ on October 21, 2013, 06:36:12 PM
I stay away from sellers who have low feedback numbers, bad feedback, and poorly written ads.

Absolutely.  It's almost uncanny how you can get a feel for what you're dealing with just by noting the seller's choice of words, spelling, grammar, etc.  Another thing I've found useful in feedback is to see how much conflict he's had with his buyers.  If he shows a pattern of replying with "can't fix stupid....." etc in his follow-ups to feedback he's received, you can be certain that the problem lies with him and not his "stupid" buyers.

   


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: AE4XL on November 03, 2013, 01:22:36 AM
I have been buying on ebay for many years and have never had a problem.
I always do my home work before buying from a seller,a little time spent checking a sellers feedback and reading the post's other's have posted for them can save you from having a problem,just take the time to check them out before you slap your hard earned money down.
AND ebay and paypal have always been there to help if needed.
HAVE a good day.


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: K1CJS on November 03, 2013, 07:57:46 AM
That doesn't always work, though.  Take the one glaring example of a bad seller--RadioMart.  Their feedback rating wasn't too bad, yet they scammed people day in and day out.  The only way some of us found out about his abysmal business ethics was from looking on the internet--searching 'RadioMart'--and seeing that there was a whole slew of complainants who were scammed by him.

Most of the time the feedback rating does tell the story--but sometimes it fails miserably.


Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W4QG on November 03, 2013, 03:50:10 PM
Honesty is alive and well. I hear continually all these complaints about eBay and the sellers, well, I can't
speak for anyone but myself, but I can provide my own point of view.

As a medium volume eBay seller I can tell you that I personally go out of my way to make sure
my customers are happy and feel that what they purchased an item exactly as described.

I've dealt with the following:

1.  Buyers not having a clue how to operate the device they purchased.
2.  Buyers unintentionally damaging the device they purchased and then claiming it "does not work"
3.  Buyers swapping bad circuit cards to repair their own bad boards.
4.  Buyers removing optional accessories and claiming the device does not work (filters, electronic keyers etc...)
5.  Sneaky problems - I have had a few legitimate complaints about somewhat esoteric features not working
-- signals out of accessory connectors not working - blown linear keying relays etc... A reseller simply can't test everything. 
6.  Shipping damage. Ship a perfectly working rig, it arrives, has issues. I typically end up eating shipping both ways, no one
walks away unhappy. Have also dealt with with the reverse, bought a radio from a knowledgeable ham, supposedly dead, get it, hook it up
and the dang thing works perfectly -- kept it,  beat the crap out of it, still working great, go figure. Afraid to sell it... 

It goes both ways. I understand all the issues buyers have had on eBay and the specific amateur sites like eHam or QTH.
Go buy gear at a hamfest, lets see what kind of guarantee you get. As a honorable seller, I take all the risk and responsibility.
People complain about eBay prices, well, yes you might pay more. If you don't like the cost, then don't bid.
You have available uncommon devices not available elsewhere and eBay is geared towards the buyer, if you have a problem,
99.5% of the time eBay will side with the buyer. Normally it does not even get that far, the sellers that are
left resolve any issues with the buyers on their own.

Its simple, treat people how you would like to be treated..

This is simply my own thoughts and philosophy, I am not passing judgement on anyone.




Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: W9BB on November 18, 2013, 12:33:57 PM
Agree with the above post.  Wanted to add also. 

I had a mint/new TS-590 that I sold to N5IZ.   Upon receipt, told me it looked and played great.  Like 2 weeks into him playing with it, it now doesn't work "right", whatever that means.  Starts the dribble about how I ripped him off, I knew it wasn't a good radio, blah blah blah.  SInce I didn't document enough the fact it did work properly when it was boxed and shipped, even though he obviously lied, I sent him $200 to have Kenwood check it out (which they told me they "aligned" it, no remove/replace was done per the tech I spoke to).  So I am out of $200 bucks to a liar or a nit wit that didn't read the manual and either got the radio out of alignment or damaged it in some way.  I should have taken photos of meter readings, etc.  Man, who always thinks to do that and has it come to this?

I have seen this same guy, over and over on EHam, QTH, QRZ looking for a 590, then a week later, selling it. Then repeating the process.  I have to wonder if he is pulling this scam on other Sellers?  Don't know, don't care, I just know I was ripped off and lied to and his call is on my list not to buy or sell to again.

It is so sad that when you sell something whether it be new, used, mint, fair, whatever, you have to document everything, every single feature, capability to the nth degree in order to be able to prove yourself in the event something like this happens.  I had documentation but not enough.  I could have easily told him to shove it but I am a persone of honesty, integrity and character.  I will do what I think is right and go from there.  I doubt this guy has any conscience but that is between him and God, not me.  I sleep well at night. 

Honesty?  Look at our world today, at our governmental leaders, lying to the public, blame game, finger pointing and instead of just saying, "Hey, I will man up and fix this issue, no matter who is at fault".  Not anymore today....sad indeed.




Title: RE: What's happened to HONESTY
Post by: K1CJS on November 19, 2013, 06:48:55 AM
Honesty is alive and well....

...It goes both ways. I understand all the issues buyers have had on eBay and the specific amateur sites like eHam or QTH.
Go buy gear at a hamfest, lets see what kind of guarantee you get. As a honorable seller, I take all the risk and responsibility.
People complain about eBay prices, well, yes you might pay more. If you don't like the cost, then don't bid.
You have available uncommon devices not available elsewhere and eBay is geared towards the buyer, if you have a problem,
99.5% of the time eBay will side with the buyer. Normally it does not even get that far, the sellers that are
left resolve any issues with the buyers on their own.

Its simple, treat people how you would like to be treated.

This is simply my own thoughts and philosophy, I am not passing judgement on anyone.

If everyone would do that, (the underlined sentence) there would be no problem.  Even if it were granted that the majority of sellers are honest and would settle the majority of issues arising, the ones who do not are the ones who give all sellers a bad name--and that is why E-bay sides with the buyers just about every time.