eHam

eHam Forums => Misc => Topic started by: KC2YSO on August 29, 2013, 09:40:30 AM



Title: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: KC2YSO on August 29, 2013, 09:40:30 AM
Before you all tell me how important the legal representation is they provide... think about this.

I have been a member of the arrl since the day I got my ticket.

Over the years, I have tried to use their website numerous times to order books and other materials, also to look up info.
Their website is a disaster and seldom works. I have had to call my order in on the phone every time, after wasting time on the site. Don't think it's me.... I run a 3.4 quad core with 16 gigs of ram and high speed DSL.

Ordered the 2011 Handbook and paid for a HARD COVER. I was notified two weeks later, they were sold out.

I bought the 2012 arrl handbook. NEVER did I get a notice that it was FULL (HUNDREDS ) of errors and omissions. There are a bunch of files I can download and add to the software, but the new info does not integrate with the existing program. So... every time I read a part, I need to go to another document and verify that what I am reading is accurate. After DECADES of publications, there is NO excuse for this sloppy work and my WASTED $50.00. It really stinks that I have read the book, THEN go look on my computer to verify info, so what good is the book at all?

The worst part is, I was NEVER informed that the book was full of errors and omissions, I found out by pure luck that there were many amendments to the book.

There have been other issues, but today is the worst.

More than three weeks ago, I made an order for a couple of books ( not cheap - don't waste your money on the arrl amplifier classics ) and a reference card for my wife's HT. The books got here damaged due to poor packaging, but not the card. There was a note saying it was back ordered.

She wanted the card to go on a trip with and it never showed up ( I ordered three weeks in advance ).

So today I called the arrl. The person on the phone ( lorie ) said it was still back ordered and had no idea when mine would arrive. Seeing as how I could get the exact card on ebay for a dollar less and NO back order issues, I told Lorie to cancel the card order. She informed me that I would be getting 95 cents back from the 5.95 I paid!

I have a receipt, an order conformation ( email ) AND a screen shot of the order after I paid for it. All three show I paid $5.95 for the card. Lorie said I only paid 95 cents for a card that is CLEARLY MARKED $5.95 both on my paperwork and arrl's website.

Here's where it get better. As I was arguing my case, Lorie suddenly turned VERY DARK, saying she was not going to continue the conversation because I MY VOICE WAS VIOLENT.

The ONLY things I said to her was that I had paperwork that showed what I paid and I DEMANDED a FULL REFUND. She said they would ONLY give me back .95 cents no matter what.

I didn't call names, I didn't insult her or the arrl, but she said to me that I'm a miserable person, and I must have a terribly hard time in life because my "violent temper" !!!!!

I donate a LOT of time to the poor, the homeless and American Veterans. I am a peace loving person, and never show when I'm upset, but demanding what I am owed got her VERY upset and turned her into an insulting rude animal.

She is obviously insane, I don't have a mean bone in my body, but I KNOW when I've been SCREWED.

Since the beginning, I have spent HUNDREDS of dollars at the arrl, and now find out I can't trust ANYTHING they print. it would really suck to spend a pile of cash on a project and find out it's worthless due to wrong or left out information.

I know $5.95 isn't going to break me, but it's the principle of all this. Why screw me? Why so nasty? Why so incompetent?

So go ahead and convince me why I should support a group of rude incompetents.

One thing is painfully clear, I'm sure they don't care about me, or my interests.

http://www.arrl.org/shop/Wouxun-KG-U...eference-Card


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: AA4PB on August 29, 2013, 09:52:53 AM
"Their website is a disaster and seldom works."

That's odd because I use it often for ordering books and materials on-line and looking up reference info like old QST articles and FCC regulations. It works for me every time thus far.
 


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: G3RZP on August 29, 2013, 10:26:24 AM
A number of the QST articles than ran to more than one page hasn't always got the complete article - who ever scanned them didn't check. Considering what a mind boggling job it is, I suppose it's not surprising.

But the biggest job for my mind is the international representation they provide. IARU can't influence FCC the way the ARRL can, but the US delegation to ITU meetings (headed by NTIA) and with FCC support can, and do, influence matters in our favour.

Remember the old saw - "Without wavelengths, there is no amateur radio".


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: W1JKA on August 29, 2013, 10:45:15 AM
Re: KC2YSO

"so go ahead and convince me why I should support a group of rude incompetents"

It appears that you have already found reasons enough to convince yourself not to. Besides, the ARRL annual dues would have more meaning and go farther if donated to the American Veterans.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: KK6GNP on August 29, 2013, 11:28:55 AM
Re: KC2YSO

"so go ahead and convince me why I should support a group of rude incompetents"

It appears that you have already found reasons enough to convince yourself not to. Besides, the ARRL annual dues would have more meaning and go farther if donated to the American Veterans.

This is an honest question, so please don't take it the wrong way.  Isn't the ARRL the direct public channel for the FCC in amateur radio?  Would there be amateur radio going forward if there was no organization like the ARRL to lead the way, because from what I know of our government, they would rather scrap the whole thing than have to fund and man such an effort.

If this isn't true, I'd like to know how it works.  I'm new to this hobby, but it seems to me that there isn't currently an organization that could replace the ARRL and all they do to make the hobby possible.  I would think the funds we put into it by buying products and services from them help keep the organization, and therefore the hobby, viable.  Not to mention more convenient through programs such as VEC.  I understand people used to have to drive, sometimes long distances, to government buildings to take their tests.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: K1CJS on August 29, 2013, 12:23:14 PM
This is an honest question, so please don't take it the wrong way.  Isn't the ARRL the direct public channel for the FCC in amateur radio?  Would there be amateur radio going forward if there was no organization like the ARRL to lead the way, because from what I know of our government, they would rather scrap the whole thing than have to fund and man such an effort....

On certain issues they're the direct amateur channel to the FCC (I think that's what you meant?) but only IF you're a paying member.  If you're not an ARRL member, don't even bother.  Note I said "on certain issues," not all issues.  The ARRL is just like any other politically connected group--they look out for their own--the inner circle--best interests first and represent the rest of their membership if the membership wishes are in agreement with their aims.

Good examples of each side--yes, they fought BPL, but they also are insisting on their emergency communications agenda, which has people who are in certain agencies and groups getting a ham license just for emergency communications purposes--which isn't what an amateur ticket is for.  They support messaging and traffic nets, which is a good thing--but they're also pushing to make amateur radio an official channel of communications in emergency situations, a thing that amateur radio was never meant for.  There are more examples, but I think those are the chief ones.

Support for the ARRL is a personal preference.  If you want to support their activities, be my guest.  I think, however, that they're not promoting fully the intended uses of amateur radio, and are promoting too many things outside of what amateur radio was intended for.  I would say that as things stand with them right now, it isn't worth it.  


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: KK6GNP on August 29, 2013, 12:55:16 PM
This is an honest question, so please don't take it the wrong way.  Isn't the ARRL the direct public channel for the FCC in amateur radio?  Would there be amateur radio going forward if there was no organization like the ARRL to lead the way, because from what I know of our government, they would rather scrap the whole thing than have to fund and man such an effort....

On certain issues they're the direct amateur channel to the FCC (I think that's what you meant?) but only IF you're a paying member.  If you're not an ARRL member, don't even bother.  Note I said "on certain issues," not all issues.  The ARRL is just like any other politically connected group--they look out for their own--the inner circle--best interests first and represent the rest of their membership if the membership wishes are in agreement with their aims.

Good examples of each side--yes, they fought BPL, but they also are insisting on their emergency communications agenda, which has people who are in certain agencies and groups getting a ham license just for emergency communications purposes--which isn't what an amateur ticket is for.  They support messaging and traffic nets, which is a good thing--but they're also pushing to make amateur radio an official channel of communications in emergency situations, a thing that amateur radio was never meant for.  There are more examples, but I think those are the chief ones.

Support for the ARRL is a personal preference.  If you want to support their activities, be my guest.  I think, however, that they're not promoting fully the intended uses of amateur radio, and are promoting too many things outside of what amateur radio was intended for.  I would say that as things stand with them right now, it isn't worth it.  

What I mean is, the ARRL seems to effectively be the outward/public facing organization for amateur radio in the US, on behalf of the FCC, as a volunteer organization that is charged with funding its own operation.  They do all the work the FCC doesn't want to do, including handling the testing, VECs, study guides, and other important things.  My question is, without the ARRL, how long would amateur radio in the US survive? Perhaps I am misunderstanding their role, but when I came to this hobby and asked some hams where I need to go to get my books and tests, I was pointed to the ARRL site without fail.

I understand no one is forced to support the ARRL, and I'm not arguing their effectiveness in the areas complained about in the original post here, but I'm asking what the alternative is without them.  I'm trying to get a better understanding of their role and importance as far as facilitating amateur radio.  If the alternative is that if the FCC may decide the whole thing is too much hassle in the absence of an organization like the ARRL,  then I find membership to be "worth it" on that basis alone. Your mileage may vary.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: SWMAN on August 29, 2013, 04:19:55 PM
 Is the ARRL worth it ? Yes to me it is. I never had any problem at all with them on orders or anything at all. All ok here


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: KG6AF on August 29, 2013, 04:46:20 PM
I think the ARRL is worth it.  There's the usual argument that the League serves as the American amateur radio community's contact point with the government, and I while I don't always agree with the their approach, I think they make a reasonable attempt to promote rational policies.  That alone is sufficient justification for my dues.

The thing that really won me over, though, was when they put all of the articles from old issues of QST online.  I've found this to be an invaluable resource for all kinds of technical information.  I'm also impressed by their VEC operation, which seems to do a consistently good job of processing exams.

Is there room for improvement?  Sure.  I think their web site design is somewhat clunky (links shouldn't be only slightly different in color from nearby text, for example).  And while some of their technical books are quite good, many of the newer, thinner books have a poor value-to-dollar ratio, particularly when you add in the high shipping/handling fees.  All that said, the scale still tips strongly in the worth-it direction.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: AC4RD on August 29, 2013, 04:55:59 PM
This is an honest question, so please don't take it the wrong way.  Isn't the ARRL the direct public channel for the FCC in amateur radio?  Would there be amateur radio going forward if there was no organization like the ARRL to lead the way, because from what I know of our government, they would rather scrap the whole thing ...

Cory, I think you've put your finger right on the heart of the matter, myself.  The ARRL is our ONLY effective voice representing ham interests in government and law.  I may not agree with every position they take, but on the whole, the ARRL is a *fantastic* resource for hams, and it (again, IMO) *needs* our support--not for the ARRL but for US.   I think you're right, too--the government could simply forbid amateur radio tomorrow, and there would be NOBODY looking out for our interests but the ARRL.

*Aside* from that, as important as it is, the ARRL also provides some marvelous resources for hams--the DXCC program, the VE system,the local section system, the technical advisers (Ed Hare!), QST (particularly the online archives!), hosting some great contests, providing a central voice for discussing issues in radio, and a gathering place for hams that's been here for three times as long as eham.net.

I understand some hams don't support the ARRL and don't appreciate its importance.  But to me it's shortsighted and clueless not to support the ARRL even when you DO disagree on some issues.   And if the ARRL were not here, hams would have NO effective voice in government.  To me, it's just common sense to support the ARRL.   73!  --ken


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: AA4PB on August 29, 2013, 06:37:27 PM
The government DID shut down amateur radio during WWI and WWII. The ARRL was instrumental in getting amateur radio reinstated. After WWI I understand that the government fully intended to just keep all the spectrum that they had taken over. Today the biggest threat is to VHF and above frequencies that Congress would like to auction off to companies that provide wireless services for profit.

Some complain about ARRL support of EMCOMM but they need something to justify amateur radio's use of valuable spectrum other than just hams having fun working DX and contesting. Remember, radio spectrum belongs to the general public and we need to be able to show that we benefit the general public in order to have access to it. The ARRL really does benefit all of us, including those who refuse to support the ARRL. Without ARRL it wouldn't be very long before amateur radio would cease to exist as we know it today.



Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: K8AXW on August 29, 2013, 07:05:45 PM
Is the ARRL worth it?  Absolutely!!  Without any doubts.  Why?  For the same reasons already given...up to including, without the ARRL there probably wouldn't be any ham radio. 

Their annual subscription costs is worth every penny just for the representation, both domestically and internationally.

I have NEVER sent an inquiry to ARRL that went unanswered for more than 48 hours.  Normally, I get a response within 24 hours. 

As RZP pointed out, some of the archive scans are incomplete.  I have encountered this problem just once and an email to them got me a complete copy of the article within a few days.

Are they perfect?  Absolutely not.  Although I cannot put my finger on any example, it's simply presumptuous to say they are "perfect."

As for your problem..... I'm sorry you've had to deal with this.  I've had to deal with businesses that was more interested in getting my money than providing me with a product.  I know where you're coming from.

I'd venture to say that you are one of a very few.  As for giving you a reason to stay a member, I won't.  I shouldn't have to.

If you're dissatisfied with ARRL, drop out.

Al - K8AXW


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: TANAKASAN on August 30, 2013, 02:45:13 AM
You can add Experimental Methods in RF Design to the list of publications with countless errors. Wes Hayward has been keeping track of them for years and even after three publication runs they failed to get things right. As for the ARRL flagship publication, QST, eliminate all the adverts and contest results then see what's left.

I'm not an ARRL member and I don't want to be, it's just not worth the money.

Tanakasan

EMRFD Errata
http://w7zoi.net/em12or3.html


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: G3RZP on August 30, 2013, 03:03:56 AM
It's not generally recognised that the IARU is heavily subsidised by the ARRL. The IARU is the amateur radio voice at the ITU - the voice that has got an international 5 MHz band on the next WRC Agenda, the voice that got us within the last 34 years new bands at 135kHz, 470kHz,  10, 18 and 24 MHz, and is working for  a world wide band at 5MHz, and, in the longer term, world wide 50 MHz, and even 70MHz bands. Plus bands above 275GHz.

So ARRL support for ITU activities is very important. Anybody who has ever been to Geneva knows how expensive that place is - a 3 star hotel room at $250 a night, a burger and a beer for $25. All of which is why I'm happy to be a member.

I feel that one service they could usefully provide would be a QSL bureau for US domestic cards - every other bureau provides a service for domestic cards.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: W1JKA on August 30, 2013, 04:16:22 AM
  Am I missing something here? I just checked the ARRL site and they have a donation section but you have to be a dues paying member to enter. Perhaps the ARRL would do well to have some type of non member donation site  designated for the sole purpose of their FCC lobbying efforts and support of the IARU. This may appeal to hams that are not joiners/contesters and not interested in receiving a monthly catalogue of the latest ham gear or contest results called QST. In this internet age all info and aspects of the hobby can be found on the various ham radio site and pertinent reflectors.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: N0IU on August 30, 2013, 05:02:47 AM
They do all the work the FCC doesn't want to do, including handling the testing, VECs, study guides, and other important things.

Nit-picking time...

Its not like someone at the FCC woke up one day and said, "Gee, I am tired of giving amateur radio tests. Let someone else do it." It was due to budgetary issues during the Reagan administration that led to the creation of the VEC system.

I know this sounds like Bill Murray's character in Groundhog Day, but the ARRL is A VEC (Volunteer Examiner Coordinator), not THE VEC. While they are the largest and most visible, they are just one of 14 VECs around the country.

And while their study guides are very popular, there are other organizations out there that provide excellent material, namely the W5YI Group... the second largest VEC. Their books feature Gordon West WB6NOA who is probably one of the most popular authors of study materials around. As a matter of fact, I learned Morse code using his cassette tapes. (Now I know I am dating myself!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Cassette


OK... back to your originally scheduled ARRL bitch-fest!




Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: K1CJS on August 30, 2013, 05:19:19 AM
What I mean is, the ARRL seems to effectively be the outward/public facing organization for amateur radio in the US, on behalf of the FCC, as a volunteer organization that is charged with funding its own operation.  They do all the work the FCC doesn't want to do, including handling the testing, VECs, study guides, and other important things.  My question is, without the ARRL, how long would amateur radio in the US survive? Perhaps I am misunderstanding their role, but when I came to this hobby and asked some hams where I need to go to get my books and tests, I was pointed to the ARRL site without fail. 

No, the FCC doesn't look at the ARRL as their 'public outlet' to hams, they expect hams to keep up on what they want by themselves--and directly to the FCC.  The FCC simply sees the ARRL as the largest association supposedly representing amateur radio interests.

Testing?  There are a small number of testing organizations--again with the FCC as the largest one.  The W5YI group seems to be the second largest.  The FCC doesn't have a monopoly on that either.

Most people point to the ARRL when just about anything about ham radio is asked.  That doesn't mean that the ARRL is the only source, just that it is the largest.

Quote
I understand no one is forced to support the ARRL, and I'm not arguing their effectiveness in the areas complained about in the original post here, but I'm asking what the alternative is without them.  I'm trying to get a better understanding of their role and importance as far as facilitating amateur radio.  If the alternative is that if the FCC may decide the whole thing is too much hassle in the absence of an organization like the ARRL,  then I find membership to be "worth it" on that basis alone. Your mileage may vary.

There is a mistaken assumption that without the ARRL, ham radio in this country would cease to exist.  Maybe that is true on the newer XHF (gigahertz) bands, but for ham radio to totally disappear, the governments of the entire world would have to agree to eliminate the ham bands, and that is very unlikely to happen.

There is also an assumption that the IARU would shut its doors tomorrow if the ARRL either withdrew its support or ceased to exist.  Such thinking is typical American arrogance--that we're the center of everything and anything, and that if the Americans aren't there, nothing happens, or if the Americans won't support a thing, that thing will fall apart.  Maybe that used to be--I don't think so--but Americans better smarten up.  The world is changing, and the US isn't what many people believe we used to be--not anymore.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: K9IUQ on August 30, 2013, 05:27:03 AM
Before you all tell me how important the legal representation is they provide... think about this.

I have been a member of the arrl since the day I got my ticket.

Over the years, I have tried to use their website numerous times to order books and other materials, also to look up info.
Their website is a disaster and seldom works. I have had to call my order in on the phone every time, after wasting time on the site. Don't think it's me.... I run a 3.4 quad core with 16 gigs of ram and high speed DSL.

Ordered the 2011 Handbook and paid for a HARD COVER. I was notified two weeks later, they were sold out.

I didn't insult her or the arrl, but she said to me that I'm a miserable person, and I must have a terribly hard time in life because my "violent temper" !!!!!

I don't know about you being a miserable person but judging from your post you do have an "Attitude" which is probably why you have problems with the ARRL.

Why not just do the ARRL a favor and dump them. You can buy their Books on Amazon at a discount and free shipping too.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: WB1FFI on August 30, 2013, 07:23:13 AM
Whenever I find myself in the Hartford area and think about visiting the ARRL station, they are closed. It would be nice if they were open for visitors on weekends and holidays, at least for a few hours.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: W1JKA on August 30, 2013, 07:45:15 AM
Re: WB1FF1

   Forget weekends and holidays, the Hartford crew are probably over in Geneva enjoying a $25.00 hamburger and beer. ;)


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: K8AXW on August 30, 2013, 09:36:31 AM
Quote
There is a mistaken assumption that without the ARRL, ham radio in this country would cease to exist.  Maybe that is true on the newer XHF (gigahertz) bands, but for ham radio to totally disappear, the governments of the entire world would have to agree to eliminate the ham bands, and that is very unlikely to happen.

There is also an assumption that the IARU would shut its doors tomorrow if the ARRL either withdrew its support or ceased to exist.  Such thinking is typical American arrogance--that we're the center of everything and anything, and that if the Americans aren't there, nothing happens, or if the Americans won't support a thing, that thing will fall apart.  Maybe that used to be--I don't think so--but Americans better smarten up.  The world is changing, and the US isn't what many people believe we used to be--not anymore.


Both of these statements are pretty much off the wall!  While there just might be an element of truth to the first statement, there's no doubt that our frequencies would take a substantial hit because of commercial needs and the restrictions, from power levels to even exposure levels would be increased.  In between these are many other points that our FCC aka, the government would change. 

Examples of this abound.  Just look at the many countries around the world.  The latest example is Australia.  They temporarily allowed amateurs to increase their power to 1KW. After a period of time, they decided that their amateurs didn't actually need 1KW of power and cut it back to the previous 400W maximum.  We probably enjoy more operating privileges than any other country in the world. 

Until the ARRL was organized (I encourage you to read the history of amateur radio) we were at the mercy of the U.S. Navy.  Then the government itself took over this electronic media and during these times it was very difficult for the hams in this country.

You've no doubt heard the expression, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."  The ARRL is our grease. 

The second quote above doesn't even deserve a comment or rebuttal.  This statement is ridiculous.

Except the last line: 

The world is changing, and the US isn't what many people believe we used to be--not anymore.

I agree here.  How do you like your "Change?"


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: N0IU on August 30, 2013, 11:07:36 AM
Whenever I find myself in the Hartford area and think about visiting the ARRL station, they are closed. It would be nice if they were open for visitors on weekends and holidays, at least for a few hours.

What's the matter... your dues aren't high enough?


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: WB6DGN on August 30, 2013, 01:07:40 PM
Quote
Why not just do the ARRL a favor and dump them. You can buy their Books on Amazon at a discount and free shipping too.  Stan K9IUQ

Personal affronts are neither necessary not desired, by ANYONE!  One would do well to stick to the topic at hand and treat others in a friendly and respectful manner.  If you can't do that; at least keep it businesslike.

I had my differences with ARRL and "dumped them" eight years ago (2005).  Some of the thoughtful and intelligent comments on here had me to the point of reconsidering my decision.
THEN, ALONG COMES STAN!  Now, I'm having a difficult time acknowledging that they probably do deserve my support, just because of his attitude.  I'll probably get over it and reup but, let me tell ya, Stan, with friends like you, the ARRL don't need enemies!
Tom


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: N9AOP on August 30, 2013, 01:16:22 PM
Too bad Wayne Green didn't see this post.  I bet he would have had volumes to say.
Art


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: K9IUQ on August 30, 2013, 01:18:49 PM
Personal affronts are neither necessary not desired, by ANYONE!  One would do well to stick to the topic at hand and treat others in a friendly and respectful manner. 

THEN, ALONG COMES STAN! 

Go back re-read the thread starters original post. Did it sound like he was respectful to the ARRL??

If you act like an ass, you get treated like an ass. How should I treat you? You seem to have an attitude too.

As far as the ARRL goes I neither like them or hate them. I have been a member forever even tho I had to live thru the incentive licensing debacle they started way back when.

Stan K9IUQ



Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: K9IUQ on August 30, 2013, 01:22:01 PM
Too bad Wayne Green didn't see this post. 

Now Wayne had an Attitude. One I rather liked..  :D
He would get the Hams more upset than K9IUQ.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: K1CJS on August 30, 2013, 01:25:10 PM
'AXW,  It's obvious that you and I have different views of ham radio, but instead of calling what you said "off the wall" or "ridiculous," I would advise that you reconsider the way the world is reacting to US involvement these days.  They neither want or need it, unless its foreign aid--that they want.  The US isn't the all-powerful voice--or the world policeman--anymore, the world has changed.  Most of what we do here in our country does nothing to change opinions of most of the rest of the world--it just gives them something to laugh at--or cuss at, depending.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: WB6DGN on August 30, 2013, 01:27:43 PM
Quote
There is also an assumption that the IARU would shut its doors tomorrow if the ARRL either withdrew its support or ceased to exist.  Such thinking is typical American arrogance--that we're the center of everything and anything, and that if the Americans aren't there, nothing happens, or if the Americans won't support a thing, that thing will fall apart.  Maybe that used to be--I don't think so--but Americans better smarten up.  The world is changing, and the US isn't what many people believe we used to be--not anymore.

Truer words were never spoken!  Americans need to wake up the the fact that, while Americans are doing their drugs, living for sex and imaginary games that have no meaning or purpose (the ball games, for example) and idolizing entertainers that are doing their level best to subvert the few remaining values left in this once-great county, the rest of the world has passed us by and isn't looking back.  
Denial only excaberates the problem and ignoring it WILL NOT make it go away.
I don't believe that all is lost, at least not yet, but Americans need to get their priorities in order and stop living in the past.  The past is gone and its NOT coming back.
Tom  


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: WB6DGN on August 30, 2013, 01:40:48 PM
Quote
How should I treat you? You seem to have an attitude too.

With respect whether you agree with me or not!  That's how these forums are intended to operate.  A well thought out. RESPECTFUL, rebuttal is always welcome and will be read with interest but calling me an ASS (as you did another poster) will get you promptly (and permanently) ignored.  That will tell me that you are incapable of making a reasoned, respectful argument so your future comments will have no value to me.
Tom


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: KG6AF on August 30, 2013, 01:41:49 PM
Too bad Wayne Green didn't see this post.  I bet he would have had volumes to say.
Art

...most of it about colloidal silver.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: WB6DGN on August 30, 2013, 03:05:22 PM
Quote
I agree here.  How do you like your "Change?"

I don't want to get into politics; I generally avoid it like the plague (which it truly is) but I don't think I should let this innuendo stand.  The decline of the US started long ago and its cause was not, at least not directly, caused by our political "leaders".  It was caused by, among other things, an American public that thought the "money tree" would never bare.  It was caused by an American public that believed that they are entitled to the "good life" whether or not they earn it.  It was caused by American workers that wouldn't or couldn't carry their own weight and were (ARE) paid FAR more than they produce.  It was caused by American business that found that they could "buy" their political leaders and, consequently, lost respect for government.
While there has always been an element of these attitudes since this country's founding, it began to become flagrant in the early '60s and really rabid by the early '80s.  NEITHER major political party can be absolved of responsibility; they all contributed equally to the downward avalanche.  Their effort to blame the other has always been nothing more than a smokescreen to try to mislead and confuse the American public and, I might add, it has worked beyond their wildest dreams.
Again, I have lots more to say about this but I acknowledge that this is not the place to do so

To the admins. - PLEASE, in fairness, if you remove THIS post, it is only right to also remove the post which I referenced above and to which this post is a response.

Tom


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: WB6DGN on August 30, 2013, 03:31:39 PM
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Go back re-read the thread starters original post. Did it sound like he was respectful to the ARRL??

Absolutely!  If, by disrespect you mean disagree, then I guess everybody in the world is "disrespectful" most of the time.
He presented his issues in a businesslike and "matter-of-fact" manner, he wasn't abusive or insulting and he left the issue open to comment.  What more can anyone do?  He had a grievance, he explained it and he gave his opinion of a possible solution.
So, if you can muster the restraint to be nice in your response, how would you have handled the issue?
Tom


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: KH6AQ on August 30, 2013, 04:37:39 PM
Had the ARRL not existed there might have been no amateur radio after WWI and no amateur radio today.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: K9IUQ on August 30, 2013, 05:09:53 PM
I don't want to get into politics

Whenever anyone starts a post like this you just know they are going to get into politics.

If you don't want to get into politics then DON'T.

One would do well to stick to the topic at hand and treat others in a friendly and respectful manner.  

YOU said that....
Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: W1JKA on August 31, 2013, 03:49:13 AM
   Mean while getting back to the question of weather amateur radio would exist without the ARRL, I believe it would although not in the present form as we know it. Regardless of future government regulations or ARRL existence, due to the abundance of current rigs in use or stowed away(especially small portable units) a certain percentage of hams being of independent and experimental nature will continue to find ways to operate, call it free banding, illegal operating, boot legging, encryption or what ever you want. Frequency restrictions will have no meaning. In this day and age what entity will have the manpower/resources to chase these people down and more to the point keep them down. Younger present and future hams of today are generally wiser to the political shenanigans and self serving restrictions that were imposed ( for legitimate reason) on the mind set of the WW11 generation of amateur radio operators.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: K1CJS on August 31, 2013, 04:28:48 PM
  Mean while getting back to the question of weather amateur radio would exist without the ARRL, I believe it would although not in the present form as we know it....

Which, in essence, is what was said in the post I made.  If someone else believes differently and believes ham radio would disappear altogether, again as I said, ALL the governments of the world would have to unilaterally abolish the ham radio service and reassign all of the ham bands to other services.  That's so unlikely that it's almost bordering on impossible.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: W0BTU on August 31, 2013, 09:39:49 PM
Had the ARRL not existed there might have been no amateur radio after WWI and no amateur radio today.

I agree. There's a lot of reasons I'm frustrated with the ARRL, such as their "improved" web site and lousy forum software. There's a lot of discussion lately about those issues on the ARRL forum itself, which it appears that the powers-that-be there choose to ignore. Amazing.

As a result, I get very irritated at them. A LOT. However, if it were not for the ARRL, heaven help all of us hams. Some things they do wonderfully, like protect our bands and rights. There is no other organization that I know of that can do that. Maybe there should be; but until there is, thank heaven for the ARRL.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: KC2YSO on September 02, 2013, 07:03:35 AM
Attitude? really Stan?

How do you react to someone treating YOU like dirt STAN, or are you used to it? Do you LIKE IT? Get real.

Quote from stanely... K9IUQ below....

I don't know about you being a miserable person but judging from your post you do have an "Attitude" which is probably why you have problems with the ARRL.

Why not just do the ARRL a favor and dump them. You can buy their Books on Amazon at a discount and free shipping too.

Stan K9IUQ

[/quote]


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: KC2YSO on September 02, 2013, 07:14:09 AM
Thank you for all of the respectful comments and replies, ( even you Stan ) you all have given me something to think about.

That's the BEST part of ham radio for me, I am an open minded person and I like to hear other peoples opinion's on all topics.


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: W1JKA on September 02, 2013, 07:31:53 AM
Re: W0BTU  reply #36

  I had to read your post a second time before I realized you were referring to the ARRL and not the U.S. Government in general. ;)


Title: RE: Is the arrl worth it?
Post by: G3RZP on September 02, 2013, 11:46:59 AM
Having been on the 'inside', I'm not convinced about IARU surviving without ARRL support. I am still an IARU Technical Consultant, which is why I know about Geneva costs.