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eHam Forums => CW => Topic started by: N9AOP on December 18, 2013, 12:49:46 PM



Title: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: N9AOP on December 18, 2013, 12:49:46 PM
Is it just me or are more CW ops running all the words together without any spaces between?  If the posts on this venue never put a space between the words we would use less real estate but the result would be difficult to read.

The same thing happens to run together CW.  It is difficult to understand.  When I ask the OP at the other end who is doing this to add a little space between each word, some don't have a clue what I am talking about.
Art


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: KE6EE on December 18, 2013, 01:41:48 PM
I notice this too. It's a common failure to learn morse code properly. I think that some ops learn to hear well-sent code but never bother to listen to their own sending which just plain sounds ugly and sloppy in addition to making it very hard to understand.


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: KH2G on December 18, 2013, 01:57:19 PM
That's why I suggest people who are learning should use a decoder to monitor themselves as it will quickly tell them if they are decent or not - hi
Dick KH2G


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: NO2A on December 18, 2013, 02:20:12 PM
Agreed. Also cq not sent properly,such as -.-.  .-- .- (cwa not cq). I`d honestly rather listen to chirpy,or badly rectified cw then improperly sent cw. It`s a bad habit to get into. Notice I`m not talking about mistakes,simply improper unacceptable type stuff.


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: K7MEM on December 18, 2013, 05:41:31 PM
I have heard a few operators that run thing together, but it's not a epidemic yet. IMHO, this comes from new learners getting their transmit speed too far ahead of their receive speed.

There was an ham the other day that decided to learn Morse code. He bought a key and in a day or two he was banging out 15 or 18 WPM. But he was worried because he couldn't copy at 5 WPM. I admire him for giving it a try, especially since it isn't a requirement any more. How do you know your sending that fast, if you can't copy it? He needs to put the key away for a while and concentrate on receiving.


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: K8AXW on December 18, 2013, 08:07:55 PM
Before being sent to an Army code school I learned to send code with a straight key.  I was very good and knew all of the letters and numbers.  However, I couldn't copy squat!  There is a difference between being able to send code and hearing and understanding it.

No doubt someone learned in the operation of the human brain can explain this.  Those who run their words together are suffering from a variation of the same problem.  Everyone should listen to themselves on a tape recorder.  That's a real eye opener!

Al - K8AXW


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: ZL1BBW on December 18, 2013, 11:36:56 PM
I remember when the rules about counting words in ships telegrams was changed to 10 letters = 1 word.

sothisbeca methenorma ltypeofmes sagewerece ived.

The big joke came when we had to deliver them by telephone after hours. ;D


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: N0IU on December 19, 2013, 03:12:38 AM
He needs to put the key away for a while and concentrate on receiving.

This would be like learning how to throw a baseball by watching it on TV! I have been watching baseball nearly all my life but I still can't pitch a slider or curve ball at 90+ MPH no matter how much I watch! The only way to get better at something is to actually get in there and do it.


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: K7MEM on December 19, 2013, 04:24:58 AM
He needs to put the key away for a while and concentrate on receiving.

This would be like learning how to throw a baseball by watching it on TV! I have been watching baseball nearly all my life but I still can't pitch a slider or curve ball at 90+ MPH no matter how much I watch! The only way to get better at something is to actually get in there and do it.

And you probably won't learn to catch a ball either by watching it on TV. For either one you need to get out of your chair.

Receiving is just as important as sending. What good is blasting away at 18 WPM, if you can't copy the guy on the other end.


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: W0BTU on December 19, 2013, 07:36:33 AM
Is it just me or are more CW ops running all the words together without any spaces between? ... The same thing happens to run together CW.  It is difficult to understand. 

Change the settings in your fldigi CW software.  ;D


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: PA1ZP on December 19, 2013, 08:34:53 AM
Hi all

If you are using a PC to demodulate CW it might look that the operator isma kinga llth ose wordstog ether.
That is why I use a Vibroplex with awfull long and different types of dashes, to put the PC decoders in the dark.

I also am able to encript my orse code messages with Enigma cifercode machines, if computers gat any better still hihi.
Then I am certain they will not read my morse code no more.

73 Jos


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: KE6EE on December 19, 2013, 01:21:08 PM
Hi all

If you are using a PC to demodulate CW it might look that the operator isma kinga llth ose wordstog ether.
That is why I use a Vibroplex with awfull long and different types of dashes, to put the PC decoders in the dark.

I also am able to encript my orse code messages with Enigma cifercode machines, if computers gat any better still hihi.
Then I am certain they will not read my morse code no more.

73 Jos

 ;D And, actually, our FCC regs prevent our using cyphers. Possibly one could construe poor runeverthingtogether sending as a cypher and thus illegal and subject to a fine and/or jail time.

Seriously, listening and understanding code and sending it are two quite distinct skills, each involving different parts of the brain and neural networks. It's like being able to understand English or another language and being unable to speak it, which occurs with some kinds of brain damage.

A big part of the underlying problem with poor code sending is the seeming current emphasis on speed. As a ham who first got licensed as a novice then as a general having to pass code exams, I think more experience at low speeds (below 10 up to perhaps 15 wpm) is required to become a competent operator. We need to keep in mind that most CW QSOs involve very limited exchanges of information; it's not like we are exchanging long essays with one another and need high speeds. We do not need high speeds.

I am convinced that 15 wpm is a reasonable long-term goal for competence as a nonprofessional CW op. I think that many ops find that 20 to 25 wpm is really significantly beyond their long-term mastery. Indeed, with the usual types of QSOs, especially DX, one only needs a marginal high-speed copy ability. Thus one can get by quite well with a solid ability to receive and send at 15 wpm, and a reasonable ability to handle the occasional brief, standardized QSO at higher speeds.





Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: PA1ZP on December 19, 2013, 03:34:12 PM
Hi Art and others

Ofcourse the Enigma thing is a bit of a joke.
i am perfectly able to run enigma coded messages and we have tried it in experimental QSO's.
But it is absolute unusable in day by day QSO's.
You will have to send the Enigma settings first to the other station before he can even read a word.

Then you have the constant work of decyfering every 5 letter group as it is recieved, so you will have to write down the cyfer code and put it in your enigma emulator for translation.
Then you have to translate your answer in the cyfermachine and write it down and send it to the other side in 5 lettergroups.
And remember Enigma doesn't have numbers so passing on numbers is a lot of work.
Absolutely unpractical to use this methode of CW in QSO but I realy could recomend every one to try it , just to see if you can do it.

10 yrs ago I threw my computer out of the shack so I cannot even do this fun experiments anymore.
I still am proud anyway that I got the Enigma award from Bletchley Park , it is hanging proud with me in my shack, and in my sons shack whom also has one of the few Enigma awards in the country from Bletchley Park England.

But I could always go to Russian German or French language if needed.

Normaly I only work rag-chew QSO's on the bands with friends and hams i know.
And ofcourse you will meet up with friends of friends and your rag-chew network of hams expands.
I run my CW speed at 27 WPM standard speed in Dutch and if I have to go to English or German language i have to go back to 25 WPM because there is translation to be done from Dutch to the foreign language as i send and recieve the code.
That will put some extra work in my brain and i have to slow down a bit for translation purposes.

I know what Arts problem is and that is that many hams have a poor CW hand, and stick all words in one long line.
Sometimes you even have the "letterstickers" that even do not keep any space between single letters that are being send by them.
I fight this problem very simple by setting my el-bug with a 3 dot space between each letter so i am forced to give decent code.

As i said before I normaly work at 27 WPM but i can read code at 35 WPM or even 40 WPM in QSO's without QRM, but it took me a long time to get this far.
It took many hours of practice and many QSO's before i got to this speed, and overhere there are not many hams that can do a ragchew QSO in these speeds.
But everybody can get up to 30 WPM if they are putting in the efford and have the will to to reach these speeds.
But as i said before always stay alert that your CW hand will get lazy and ugly if you do not  take care that your hand keeps clean and neat in giving the code.

It is also bad CW practice to answer a station in higher speed as he is calling, i will always go to the speed that the station is using at the other end.

Just keep on hammering down the code and it becomes more fun day by day and year after year.

For hams whom want to upgrade their speeds try the website LCWO.NET it is a great help in improving speed of your morse-code.

73 Jos


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: W3UEC on December 21, 2013, 04:19:34 AM
There is a "Mixed Up Morse Cose" web site http://www.datagenetics.com/blog/march42012/index.html
that shows a lot of interesting problems and effects when the space between words and letters are muddled. For example, "elemental"   .    ._..    .    _ _    .    _.   _   ._   ._..   could be read as   .._.    .._    _._.    _._    .    _.. 
in the extreme case when the spaces beteen all elements (dits and dahs) were run together and then spaced differently. 



Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: K8AXW on December 21, 2013, 08:28:07 AM
Perhaps the reason why operators run their characters and words together is because they are trying to send faster than their true ability?



Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: N9AOP on December 21, 2013, 02:49:15 PM
Thanks for all the nice replies.  I do believe that some ops are sending faster than their real ability.  Back in the day we all had mentors and they all took the time to make sure that you were trained properly.  The other thing I notice with folks running things together is that most of them are using radios that scroll the code such as the K3; KX3; some TenTec and Yaesu.  If you send good CW, it scrolls across the screen and they don't have the sense to ask you to slow down to where they can copy without that aid and then they reply at that speed and send garbage that is hard to understand.
Art


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: GW3OQK on December 22, 2013, 05:15:12 AM
Have you heard contesters sending CQ NST or NV rather than TEST?
Andrew


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: K7KBN on December 22, 2013, 09:49:42 AM
Only for the past 50 years or so... ;D

The CQ NV group just might be looking for a Nevada station.  The abbreviation was still "NEV" when I was a Novice, and I did hear (and reply to) lots of CQ NEV calls during that time from Vegas.


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: KB1WSY on January 02, 2014, 08:10:45 AM
At the other end of the spectrum, a lot of the CW I hear on the air has slightly exaggerated character spacing. Certainly more than the "standard" three dits. I have two theories about this:

--The op learned CW with Farnsworth spacing and never quite abandoned it; or alternatively
--The op is *deliberately* inserting slightly more space to increase legibility.

What do you think?

For instance: One of my Elmers told me the other day that he has a regular sked with a buddy on 30m and they both set their keyers to 30wpm, but actually transmit somewhat slower than that.

73 de Martin, KB1WSY


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: M0LEP on January 02, 2014, 11:07:46 AM
--The op learned CW with Farnsworth spacing and never quite abandoned it; or alternatively
--The op is *deliberately* inserting slightly more space to increase legibility.
Both. I know the second happens, particularly when an experienced op recognises a beginner who's struggling at the other end of the QSO.

73, Rick M0LEP


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: REMOVED_ACCOUNT_2015-01-09 on January 02, 2014, 05:08:27 PM
Well said.

Perhaps the reason why operators run their characters and words together is because they are trying to send faster than their true ability?




Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: KW4M on January 02, 2014, 07:02:10 PM
Or maybe the op is using a keyboard and can't type fast enough.   :D


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: ON6MH on January 03, 2014, 05:15:25 AM
Hello,

Further to the "running all together" problem, I hear more and more operators not able to control the number of "dits" they are sending.
Often "h" become "5" and "5" is send as 6 or 7 "dits" like in 5......99, just to be sure there are enough "dits"!

I hear it so often, I am afraid it could become a trend, and even be accepted as code variation.
More over, those operators don't even seem to try to improve their sending.
One of the problem is the "no code" license. People are going "on the air" on their own, and nobody is correcting them.
Or maybe they don't listen to critics.

It all come back to a speed problem, without technique.
A bit like going through a tough part on the piano, and playing it fast in hope nobody would notice errors.

Anybody else bothered by this ?

Michel



Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: N4OI on January 03, 2014, 05:25:55 AM
[…]
--The op is *deliberately* inserting slightly more space to increase legibility.
[…]

Yep - guilty as charged…  I keep the keyer set to 30 wpm but will intentionally increase the spacing a bit if the other op is a little slower.  This usually results in unsolicited comments such as, "armchair cpy" or "ur fist is vy easy to cpi." 

That said, I find it harder to exaggerate the spacing than to just let it go at normal speed…  YMMV

73


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: KB1WSY on January 03, 2014, 05:52:08 AM
I keep the keyer set to 30 wpm but will intentionally increase the spacing a bit if the other op is a little slower.

Even though I am a beginner and haven't finished learning all the characters, I find truly slow copy (sent at below 10wpm with the proper spacing) very hard to copy. That's because I've been learning with the character speed set at 20wpm (with extra inter-character spacing) which results in a good "sound picture" of the character. If you slow it down, it becomes almost meaningless noise to my ear. But I also find fast copy (above 20wpm with no extra spacing) impossible to copy! So, to me, what you are doing (not slowing down the characters, but adding space between them) makes the most sense, if you are in a QSO with a slower op.

73 de Martin, KB1WSY


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: K7MEM on January 03, 2014, 05:53:54 AM
Hello,

Further to the "running all together" problem, I hear more and more operators not able to control the number of "dits" they are sending.
Often "h" become "5" and "5" is send as 6 or 7 "dits" like in 5......99, just to be sure there are enough "dits"!

I hear it so often, I am afraid it could become a trend, and even be accepted as code variation.
More over, those operators don't even seem to try to improve their sending.
One of the problem is the "no code" license. People are going "on the air" on their own, and nobody is correcting them.
Or maybe they don't listen to critics.

It all come back to a speed problem, without technique.
A bit like going through a tough part on the piano, and playing it fast in hope nobody would notice errors.

Anybody else bothered by this ?

Michel

I wouldn't say I'm bothered by it, but extra dits are very common.

I have no problem with the new no-code hams. After all, it's just a hobby. If a new ham wants to learn Morse code, I think that's great. However, I think much of the extra dot problem is due to a fascination with "bugs". While they are neat things to have they take a lot of practice and control. Plus, they are designed for speeds of 20 WPM and up. So to slow them down they all use extra weights on the arm. If the bug is not adjusted properly, this can lead to the automatic dots being pretty wild. Synchronizing the dots and dashes can be a real challenge.

I have a bug myself (1916 Blue Racer) and use it regularly. But I have used a keyer for over 30 years and can no longer handle the manual dashes. So I disabled the automatic dots, rewired it a little, and hooked it up to a keyer. It works great that way.


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: M0LEP on January 04, 2014, 12:02:57 AM
Anybody else bothered by this ?

It certainly bothers me when I make that mistake (and others, often enough to get me flustered, and then my sending goes completely to pot). A number of things make it more likely to happen; keyer not at my "best" speed (too fast or too slow), paddle not sitting straight, or slipping, and so on...

73, Rick M0LEP


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: KD8IIC on January 04, 2014, 01:40:45 AM
  Yes, AXW Thanks. It's an eye opener and a reality check to hear one's fist on the recording sent from a receiving station. Even though I use a side tone and try to warm up before tuning up there are mistakes being made.Didn't think I was that bad but, there it was as evidence! :o
 I was reading a '60's ARRL Handbook just yesterday and it taught to never consider that we send good enough and that we need to strive for improvement continually, hear hear! Signed, Slow but sure in Columbus, Lane 73


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: VE3FMC on January 04, 2014, 04:18:19 PM
Perhaps the reason why operators run their characters and words together is because they are trying to send faster than their true ability?



You sir win the prize!

Or they are trying to send with bugs and have no clue how to set them up or use them properly.
I do not do much CW, never have. Passed the required CW test in 1996 and basically gave up on it.

But I do try to copy once in awhile and here some terrible sending. Then I go back to the digital modes!


Title: RE: runningallthosewordstogether
Post by: KD8IIC on January 04, 2014, 05:38:31 PM
 Okay, then go, please go. Since you cannot spell "hear' then maybe you can't copy well sent Morse anyway, Hi... :)