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eHam Forums => Computers And Software => Topic started by: W8JX on October 23, 2014, 06:33:16 PM



Title: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 23, 2014, 06:33:16 PM
It seems that FTDI is fighting back against its chips being cloned. Their latest driver resets the PID in cloned chips to a value that will not let proper driver install and it also prevents chip from working with old driver or different OS because PID has been changed. Cute trick. The warning is buried in driver info file but you have to dig to find it. Moral is stay away from FTDI serial to USB chips unless you know they are genuine or use old drivers.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 23, 2014, 07:46:22 PM
See thread:
FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W7SMJ on October 23, 2014, 08:27:57 PM
Moral is stay away from FTDI serial to USB chips unless you know they are genuine or use old drivers.

Also stay away from Windows Automatic Updates!


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 24, 2014, 10:15:01 AM
Moral is stay away from FTDI serial to USB chips unless you know they are genuine or use old drivers.

Also stay away from Windows Automatic Updates!

Maybe if you use XP (because it has no support for this) but to do so otherwise is a bit foolish. Nothing wrong with drivers, just fake hardware.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 24, 2014, 11:36:16 AM
Moral is stay away from FTDI serial to USB chips unless you know they are genuine or use old drivers.

Also stay away from Windows Automatic Updates!

Maybe if you use XP (because it has no support for this) but to do so otherwise is a bit foolish. Nothing wrong with drivers, just fake hardware.

The problem is the a company writing software that will brick equipment they don't own instead of writing software that won't work counterfeit hardware.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 24, 2014, 11:40:08 AM
Moral is stay away from FTDI serial to USB chips unless you know they are genuine or use old drivers.

Also stay away from Windows Automatic Updates!

Maybe if you use XP (because it has no support for this) but to do so otherwise is a bit foolish. Nothing wrong with drivers, just fake hardware.

The problem is the a company writing software that will brick equipment they don't own instead of writing software that won't work counterfeit hardware.

I see nothing wrong with bricking a unlicensed clone. If they did more of it in the end you could have more reliable hardware driver support.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: AA4PB on October 24, 2014, 12:21:29 PM
They'd be a lot better off to just raise a pop up each time the driver is loaded, saying that the chip is an unauthorized clone so that the user's becomes aware of it. Bricking the chip creates problems for the user who probably has no idea the device contains the clone and may not have any reasonable way to correct it. It makes "bad press" for FTDI.



Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 24, 2014, 12:31:45 PM
Moral is stay away from FTDI serial to USB chips unless you know they are genuine or use old drivers.

Also stay away from Windows Automatic Updates!

Maybe if you use XP (because it has no support for this) but to do so otherwise is a bit foolish. Nothing wrong with drivers, just fake hardware.

The problem is the a company writing software that will brick equipment they don't own instead of writing software that won't work counterfeit hardware.

I see nothing wrong with bricking a unlicensed clone. If they did more of it in the end you could have more reliable hardware driver support.

You see nothing wrong with a company writing software to brick a piece of hardware they do not own? Really? Says something, doesn't it?


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 24, 2014, 12:50:07 PM
Moral is stay away from FTDI serial to USB chips unless you know they are genuine or use old drivers.

Also stay away from Windows Automatic Updates!

Maybe if you use XP (because it has no support for this) but to do so otherwise is a bit foolish. Nothing wrong with drivers, just fake hardware.

The problem is the a company writing software that will brick equipment they don't own instead of writing software that won't work counterfeit hardware.

I see nothing wrong with bricking a unlicensed clone. If they did more of it in the end you could have more reliable hardware driver support.

You see nothing wrong with a company writing software to brick a piece of hardware they do not own? Really? Says something, doesn't it?

Not at all but it does about you and not me. Not sure why you are defending a illegal clone. It does not brick any device, only cloned chips. What better way to stop inferior cloned chips than kill them when using a OEM driver. FTDI spend time and money on drivers why support clones for free.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W7SMJ on October 24, 2014, 01:06:34 PM
Not at all but it does about you and not me. Not sure why you are defending a illegal clone. It does not brick any device, only cloned chips. What better way to stop inferior cloned chips than kill them when using a OEM driver. FTDI spend time and money on drivers why support clones for free.

So using your logic you would have no problem with your car being destroyed if you happened to purchase gasoline that was produced from black market sanctioned Iranian oil, correct?


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 24, 2014, 02:24:30 PM
Moral is stay away from FTDI serial to USB chips unless you know they are genuine or use old drivers.

Also stay away from Windows Automatic Updates!

Maybe if you use XP (because it has no support for this) but to do so otherwise is a bit foolish. Nothing wrong with drivers, just fake hardware.

The problem is the a company writing software that will brick equipment they don't own instead of writing software that won't work counterfeit hardware.

I see nothing wrong with bricking a unlicensed clone. If they did more of it in the end you could have more reliable hardware driver support.

You see nothing wrong with a company writing software to brick a piece of hardware they do not own? Really? Says something, doesn't it?

Not at all but it does about you and not me. Not sure why you are defending a illegal clone. It does not brick any device, only cloned chips. What better way to stop inferior cloned chips than kill them when using a OEM driver. FTDI spend time and money on drivers why support clones for free.

I am not defending an illegally cloned chip. That is your incorrect inference. I don't appreciate the accusation.

FTDI's software did brick a device. A USB-Serial cable is a device. A USB-serial cable that once worked had settings changed by FCTI's software so that it would no longer work. That cable, with the chip inside, is not FTDI's property. This malicious act was performed consciously by FTDI. The action is possibly illegal.

As for not supporting clones, all FTDI had to do was do a check, and then not work with the clone chip. They could have generated system messages saying why the driver stopped working. Apparently, because of the backlash, they have rethought their actions.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 24, 2014, 04:15:40 PM
Moral is stay away from FTDI serial to USB chips unless you know they are genuine or use old drivers.

Also stay away from Windows Automatic Updates!

Maybe if you use XP (because it has no support for this) but to do so otherwise is a bit foolish. Nothing wrong with drivers, just fake hardware.

The problem is the a company writing software that will brick equipment they don't own instead of writing software that won't work counterfeit hardware.

I see nothing wrong with bricking a unlicensed clone. If they did more of it in the end you could have more reliable hardware driver support.

You see nothing wrong with a company writing software to brick a piece of hardware they do not own? Really? Says something, doesn't it?

Not at all but it does about you and not me. Not sure why you are defending a illegal clone. It does not brick any device, only cloned chips. What better way to stop inferior cloned chips than kill them when using a OEM driver. FTDI spend time and money on drivers why support clones for free.

I am not defending an illegally cloned chip. That is your incorrect inference. I don't appreciate the accusation.

FTDI's software did brick a device. A USB-Serial cable is a device. A USB-serial cable that once worked had settings changed by FCTI's software so that it would no longer work. That cable, with the chip inside, is not FTDI's property. This malicious act was performed consciously by FTDI. The action is possibly illegal.

As for not supporting clones, all FTDI had to do was do a check, and then not work with the clone chip. They could have generated system messages saying why the driver stopped working. Apparently, because of the backlash, they have rethought their actions.

While I am not a attorney I see nothing wrong with way they did it. All devices have a PID number for device ID for proper driver installation. The new new driver changes it to a number that is not valid for FDTI chips. I see nothing wrong with this as it just means that FDTI will no longer support bogus chips. There is nothing to stop bogus chip maker from making their own driver or properly licencing FDTI designs.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 24, 2014, 07:32:24 PM
While I am not a attorney I see nothing wrong with way they did it. All devices have a PID number for device ID for proper driver installation. The new new driver changes it to a number that is not valid for FDTI chips. I see nothing wrong with this as it just means that FDTI will no longer support bogus chips. There is nothing to stop bogus chip maker from making their own driver or properly licencing FDTI designs.

FDTI has absolutely NO RIGHT to alter MY cable. Period.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 24, 2014, 07:48:44 PM
While I am not a attorney I see nothing wrong with way they did it. All devices have a PID number for device ID for proper driver installation. The new new driver changes it to a number that is not valid for FDTI chips. I see nothing wrong with this as it just means that FDTI will no longer support bogus chips. There is nothing to stop bogus chip maker from making their own driver or properly licencing FDTI designs.

FDTI has absolutely NO RIGHT to alter MY cable. Period.

Your wrong, they have the right to protect their property. It is not their fault if you use a fake clone.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 24, 2014, 08:33:32 PM
While I am not a attorney I see nothing wrong with way they did it. All devices have a PID number for device ID for proper driver installation. The new new driver changes it to a number that is not valid for FDTI chips. I see nothing wrong with this as it just means that FDTI will no longer support bogus chips. There is nothing to stop bogus chip maker from making their own driver or properly licencing FDTI designs.

FDTI has absolutely NO RIGHT to alter MY cable. Period.

Your wrong, they have the right to protect their property. It is not their fault if you use a fake clone.

You are wrong. They are not protecting their property. They are damaging my property. Protecting their property would be writing their software so it would not run on anything but their chips. They must have realized this since they have changed course with their driver; "This will still uphold our stance against devices that are not genuine, but do so in a non-invasive way that means that there is no risk of end user’s hardware being directly affected."

They should have been non-invasive in the first place.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KD0SFY on October 24, 2014, 08:36:40 PM
Your property is illegal, regardless of whether or not you knew it was illegal.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 25, 2014, 03:39:27 AM
While I am not a attorney I see nothing wrong with way they did it. All devices have a PID number for device ID for proper driver installation. The new new driver changes it to a number that is not valid for FDTI chips. I see nothing wrong with this as it just means that FDTI will no longer support bogus chips. There is nothing to stop bogus chip maker from making their own driver or properly licencing FDTI designs.

FDTI has absolutely NO RIGHT to alter MY cable. Period.

Your wrong, they have the right to protect their property. It is not their fault if you use a fake clone.

You are wrong. They are not protecting their property. They are damaging my property. Protecting their property would be writing their software so it would not run on anything but their chips. They must have realized this since they have changed course with their driver; "This will still uphold our stance against devices that are not genuine, but do so in a non-invasive way that means that there is no risk of end user’s hardware being directly affected."

They should have been non-invasive in the first place.

You buy a hot/stolen car or product it can be taken from you at any time its discovered. Not knowing might save you from prosecution buy not from loosing it. You have not right to use stole property and a illegal clone is stolen property. I hope more vendors do it.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 25, 2014, 03:40:58 AM
Your property is illegal, regardless of whether or not you knew it was illegal.


FDTI has absolutely NO RIGHT to alter MY cable. Period.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 25, 2014, 03:47:07 AM
You buy a hot/stolen car or product it can be taken from you at any time its discovered.

To be legally "taken back" requires legal action including law enforcement and probably court action.

Not knowing might save you from prosecution buy not from loosing it. You have not right to use stole property and a illegal clone is stolen property.

Not knowing it is a clone would probably cast you as a victim in court, possible able to have charges lodge against whomever sold you the cable.

I hope more vendors do it.

I know you do. Maybe you are the one that should reap what you sow.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: NK7Z on October 25, 2014, 04:27:56 AM
Your property is illegal, regardless of whether or not you knew it was illegal.


FDTI has absolutely NO RIGHT to alter MY cable. Period.

FDTI did not modify your property, you did...  You chose to run the drivers, you loaded them, and you hit the go button to install them.  I can almost guarantee you that someplace in that big User agreement you failed to read, (but somehow agreed to), there is an out for them, allowing just this action. 


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 25, 2014, 06:13:52 AM
Your property is illegal, regardless of whether or not you knew it was illegal.


FDTI has absolutely NO RIGHT to alter MY cable. Period.

FDTI did not modify your property, you did...  You chose to run the drivers, you loaded them, and you hit the go button to install them.  I can almost guarantee you that someplace in that big User agreement you failed to read, (but somehow agreed to), there is an out for them, allowing just this action. 


The out that you are looking for is "may cause harm". That is not the same as we will brick your cable.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: K1ZJH on October 25, 2014, 11:44:53 AM
The end result is folks will avoid FTDI/ Proflix  based devices in the future.

If It IS NOT OBVIOUS that a device is based on a counterfeited device, why should anyone trust any supplier in the future?  Were all of the counterfeit products produced by TW or China?

I have USB Maxton Prolific cable that is now fubar'ed..... so what do I do?  Risk buying another USB/serial cable on the blind faith that it is not counterfeit?  I think not.... it may make a manufacturer feel good to screw over a buyer, but that only punishes themselves and the buyers in the end. The counterfeiters have their money... the unsuspecting buyers and software owners are screwed, while the crooks have reaped their rewards. This crap hurts everyone. Don't assume that buyers were culpable when they bought what appeared to be legitimate devices.
 


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KD0SFY on October 25, 2014, 01:59:49 PM
Your property is illegal, regardless of whether or not you knew it was illegal.


FDTI has absolutely NO RIGHT to alter MY cable. Period.

If it is illegal, sure they do. 


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 25, 2014, 02:05:25 PM
Don't assume that buyers were culpable when they bought what appeared to be legitimate devices.

Legally you may not be culpable for using illegal equipment but you have no right to use stole property.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: NK7Z on October 25, 2014, 06:59:13 PM
Your property is illegal, regardless of whether or not you knew it was illegal.


FDTI has absolutely NO RIGHT to alter MY cable. Period.

FDTI did not modify your property, you did...  You chose to run the drivers, you loaded them, and you hit the go button to install them.  I can almost guarantee you that someplace in that big User agreement you failed to read, (but somehow agreed to), there is an out for them, allowing just this action. 


The out that you are looking for is "may cause harm". That is not the same as we will brick your cable.
Actually it is the same...  It caused harm.  Don't think I am defending their actions, just looking at the real world is all, they can, and have a right to do exactly as they did...


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: NK7Z on October 25, 2014, 07:02:35 PM
The end result is folks will avoid FTDI/ Proflix  based devices in the future.

If It IS NOT OBVIOUS that a device is based on a counterfeited device, why should anyone trust any supplier in the future?  Were all of the counterfeit products produced by TW or China?

I have USB Maxton Prolific cable that is now fubar'ed..... so what do I do?  Risk buying another USB/serial cable on the blind faith that it is not counterfeit?  I think not.... it may make a manufacturer feel good to screw over a buyer, but that only punishes themselves and the buyers in the end. The counterfeiters have their money... the unsuspecting buyers and software owners are screwed, while the crooks have reaped their rewards. This crap hurts everyone. Don't assume that buyers were culpable when they bought what appeared to be legitimate devices.
 
Not "Blind Faith" at all-- you WILL take all possible measures to obtain a "real" cable, unless you want to never contact your device again with your computer...  You really well...  Else you lose your entire device.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 26, 2014, 07:23:47 AM
Your property is illegal, regardless of whether or not you knew it was illegal.


FDTI has absolutely NO RIGHT to alter MY cable. Period.

If it is illegal, sure they do. 

No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action. They do have the right to have the driver check for authentic chips and then fail to work if counterfeits are revealed. They could even (gasp) help the consumers by having a notification of counterfeit chips. But they do not have the right to brick my cable any more than they have the right to come into my house and take it. And it seems they have learned from their huge mistake.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 26, 2014, 07:25:33 AM
Don't assume that buyers were culpable when they bought what appeared to be legitimate devices.

Legally you may not be culpable for using illegal equipment but you have no right to use stole property.

FTDI has no right to MY property without legal action.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 26, 2014, 07:26:54 AM
Your property is illegal, regardless of whether or not you knew it was illegal.


FDTI has absolutely NO RIGHT to alter MY cable. Period.

FDTI did not modify your property, you did...  You chose to run the drivers, you loaded them, and you hit the go button to install them.  I can almost guarantee you that someplace in that big User agreement you failed to read, (but somehow agreed to), there is an out for them, allowing just this action. 


The out that you are looking for is "may cause harm". That is not the same as we will brick your cable.
Actually it is the same...  It caused harm.  Don't think I am defending their actions, just looking at the real world is all, they can, and have a right to do exactly as they did...

Actually it is not the same. One is accidental. The other is purposeful and malicious.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: NK7Z on October 26, 2014, 07:39:00 AM
No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action...
We have already established, that FDTI did not change your setup, YOU changed your setup by installing the provided drivers, and agreeing to their terms and conditions by pressing the agree button during install.  FDTI has only responding to the bad PR they got, and made a decision to remove the code that YOU executed which changed your setup.

In my opinion, a good choice on their part to remove the software bomb, but they have been totally within their legal rights to do as they have done...  They could have wiped your HD, and if you agreed to it, (by installing the drivers, and agreeing as you did), it becomes legal...  It is not right, nor is the decent thing to do, but it is legal.  The key here is you agreed to the terms and conditions.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: NK7Z on October 26, 2014, 07:40:00 AM
Not at all but it does about you and not me. Not sure why you are defending a illegal clone. It does not brick any device, only cloned chips. What better way to stop inferior cloned chips than kill them when using a OEM driver. FTDI spend time and money on drivers why support clones for free.

So using your logic you would have no problem with your car being destroyed if you happened to purchase gasoline that was produced from black market sanctioned Iranian oil, correct?
No digitally signed user agreement for gas yet, so your question does not apply.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 26, 2014, 07:45:28 AM
No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action...
We have already established, that FDTI did not change your setup, YOU changed your setup by installing the provided drivers, and agreeing to their terms and conditions by pressing the agree button during install.  FDTI has only responding to the bad PR they got, and made a decision to remove the code that YOU executed which changed your setup.

In my opinion, a good choice on their part to remove the software bomb, but they have been totally within their legal rights to do as they have done...  They could have wiped your HD, and if you agreed to it, (by installing the drivers, and agreeing as you did), it becomes legal...  It is not right, nor is the decent thing to do, but it is legal.  The key here is you agreed to the terms and conditions.

18 U.S. Code § 1030 (a)(5)(A) "(a) Whoever— (5) (A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer; ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section"


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 26, 2014, 07:53:52 AM
No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action...
We have already established, that FDTI did not change your setup, YOU changed your setup by installing the provided drivers, and agreeing to their terms and conditions by pressing the agree button during install.  FDTI has only responding to the bad PR they got, and made a decision to remove the code that YOU executed which changed your setup.

In my opinion, a good choice on their part to remove the software bomb, but they have been totally within their legal rights to do as they have done...  They could have wiped your HD, and if you agreed to it, (by installing the drivers, and agreeing as you did), it becomes legal...  It is not right, nor is the decent thing to do, but it is legal.  The key here is you agreed to the terms and conditions.

18 U.S. Code § 1030 (a)(5)(A) "(a) Whoever— (5) (A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer; ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section"

You just do not get it do you??? It does not apply to counterfeit hardware. You have no right to use counterfeit products. You can use them till you get caught. Take it up with OEM for adaptor


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: NK7Z on October 26, 2014, 08:00:45 AM
No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action...
We have already established, that FDTI did not change your setup, YOU changed your setup by installing the provided drivers, and agreeing to their terms and conditions by pressing the agree button during install.  FDTI has only responding to the bad PR they got, and made a decision to remove the code that YOU executed which changed your setup.

In my opinion, a good choice on their part to remove the software bomb, but they have been totally within their legal rights to do as they have done...  They could have wiped your HD, and if you agreed to it, (by installing the drivers, and agreeing as you did), it becomes legal...  It is not right, nor is the decent thing to do, but it is legal.  The key here is you agreed to the terms and conditions.

18 U.S. Code § 1030 (a)(5)(A) "(a) Whoever— (5) (A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer; ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section"

In your own quote above, note above the words: "intentionally causes damage without authorization", as I have mentioned before, YOU authorized the changes, so it is legal...  Again, I am not defending them, nor do I think it was the "right" thing to do, but it was legal!  When you agree to a terms and conditions contract-- well-- you agree to the terms and conditions...


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: NK7Z on October 26, 2014, 08:01:53 AM
No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action...
We have already established, that FDTI did not change your setup, YOU changed your setup by installing the provided drivers, and agreeing to their terms and conditions by pressing the agree button during install.  FDTI has only responding to the bad PR they got, and made a decision to remove the code that YOU executed which changed your setup.

In my opinion, a good choice on their part to remove the software bomb, but they have been totally within their legal rights to do as they have done...  They could have wiped your HD, and if you agreed to it, (by installing the drivers, and agreeing as you did), it becomes legal...  It is not right, nor is the decent thing to do, but it is legal.  The key here is you agreed to the terms and conditions.

18 U.S. Code § 1030 (a)(5)(A) "(a) Whoever— (5) (A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer; ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section"

You just do not get it do you??? It does not apply to counterfeit hardware. You have no right to use counterfeit products. You can use them till you get caught. Take it up with OEM for adaptor
That is the right course of action, raise hell with the OEM!


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 26, 2014, 08:42:22 AM
No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action...
We have already established, that FDTI did not change your setup, YOU changed your setup by installing the provided drivers, and agreeing to their terms and conditions by pressing the agree button during install.  FDTI has only responding to the bad PR they got, and made a decision to remove the code that YOU executed which changed your setup.

In my opinion, a good choice on their part to remove the software bomb, but they have been totally within their legal rights to do as they have done...  They could have wiped your HD, and if you agreed to it, (by installing the drivers, and agreeing as you did), it becomes legal...  It is not right, nor is the decent thing to do, but it is legal.  The key here is you agreed to the terms and conditions.

18 U.S. Code § 1030 (a)(5)(A) "(a) Whoever— (5) (A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer; ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section"

You just do not get it do you??? It does not apply to counterfeit hardware. You have no right to use counterfeit products. You can use them till you get caught. Take it up with OEM for adaptor

You just do not get it, do you? FTDI has no right to consciously alter my equipment without legal action. FTDI seems to be getting it now.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 26, 2014, 08:43:49 AM
No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action...
We have already established, that FDTI did not change your setup, YOU changed your setup by installing the provided drivers, and agreeing to their terms and conditions by pressing the agree button during install.  FDTI has only responding to the bad PR they got, and made a decision to remove the code that YOU executed which changed your setup.

In my opinion, a good choice on their part to remove the software bomb, but they have been totally within their legal rights to do as they have done...  They could have wiped your HD, and if you agreed to it, (by installing the drivers, and agreeing as you did), it becomes legal...  It is not right, nor is the decent thing to do, but it is legal.  The key here is you agreed to the terms and conditions.

18 U.S. Code § 1030 (a)(5)(A) "(a) Whoever— (5) (A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer; ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section"

In your own quote above, note above the words: "intentionally causes damage without authorization", as I have mentioned before, YOU authorized the changes, so it is legal...  Again, I am not defending them, nor do I think it was the "right" thing to do, but it was legal!  When you agree to a terms and conditions contract-- well-- you agree to the terms and conditions...

When I authorize the installation of the driver, I do not authorize willful and malicious damage to my property.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 26, 2014, 08:57:31 AM
No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action...
We have already established, that FDTI did not change your setup, YOU changed your setup by installing the provided drivers, and agreeing to their terms and conditions by pressing the agree button during install.  FDTI has only responding to the bad PR they got, and made a decision to remove the code that YOU executed which changed your setup.

In my opinion, a good choice on their part to remove the software bomb, but they have been totally within their legal rights to do as they have done...  They could have wiped your HD, and if you agreed to it, (by installing the drivers, and agreeing as you did), it becomes legal...  It is not right, nor is the decent thing to do, but it is legal.  The key here is you agreed to the terms and conditions.

18 U.S. Code § 1030 (a)(5)(A) "(a) Whoever— (5) (A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer; ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section"

In your own quote above, note above the words: "intentionally causes damage without authorization", as I have mentioned before, YOU authorized the changes, so it is legal...  Again, I am not defending them, nor do I think it was the "right" thing to do, but it was legal!  When you agree to a terms and conditions contract-- well-- you agree to the terms and conditions...

When I authorize the installation of the driver, I do not authorize willful and malicious damage to my property.

Talking to you is like talking to a wall. Illegal is illegal. You get caught yell at OEM not FTDI.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 26, 2014, 09:10:52 AM
No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action...
We have already established, that FDTI did not change your setup, YOU changed your setup by installing the provided drivers, and agreeing to their terms and conditions by pressing the agree button during install.  FDTI has only responding to the bad PR they got, and made a decision to remove the code that YOU executed which changed your setup.

In my opinion, a good choice on their part to remove the software bomb, but they have been totally within their legal rights to do as they have done...  They could have wiped your HD, and if you agreed to it, (by installing the drivers, and agreeing as you did), it becomes legal...  It is not right, nor is the decent thing to do, but it is legal.  The key here is you agreed to the terms and conditions.

18 U.S. Code § 1030 (a)(5)(A) "(a) Whoever— (5) (A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer; ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section"

In your own quote above, note above the words: "intentionally causes damage without authorization", as I have mentioned before, YOU authorized the changes, so it is legal...  Again, I am not defending them, nor do I think it was the "right" thing to do, but it was legal!  When you agree to a terms and conditions contract-- well-- you agree to the terms and conditions...

When I authorize the installation of the driver, I do not authorize willful and malicious damage to my property.

Talking to you is like talking to a wall. Illegal is illegal. You get caught yell at OEM not FTDI.

Talking to you is like talking to a wall. Illegal is illegal. Wrong is wrong. FTDI should not be altering my equipment. BTW, I am not the only one holding this opinion. I am not the only one thinking this may well be illegal. You really check the various news items and blogosphere.

For example:
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141023/15502828928/microsoft-windows-update-completely-kill-devices-that-might-possibly-be-used-piracy.shtml



Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: NK7Z on October 26, 2014, 09:13:57 AM
No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action...
We have already established, that FDTI did not change your setup, YOU changed your setup by installing the provided drivers, and agreeing to their terms and conditions by pressing the agree button during install.  FDTI has only responding to the bad PR they got, and made a decision to remove the code that YOU executed which changed your setup.

In my opinion, a good choice on their part to remove the software bomb, but they have been totally within their legal rights to do as they have done...  They could have wiped your HD, and if you agreed to it, (by installing the drivers, and agreeing as you did), it becomes legal...  It is not right, nor is the decent thing to do, but it is legal.  The key here is you agreed to the terms and conditions.

18 U.S. Code § 1030 (a)(5)(A) "(a) Whoever— (5) (A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer; ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section"

In your own quote above, note above the words: "intentionally causes damage without authorization", as I have mentioned before, YOU authorized the changes, so it is legal...  Again, I am not defending them, nor do I think it was the "right" thing to do, but it was legal!  When you agree to a terms and conditions contract-- well-- you agree to the terms and conditions...

When I authorize the installation of the driver, I do not authorize willful and malicious damage to my property.
You appear to have authorized a change which "may cause harm", (from your own quote upthread), when you approved the install, in fact you agree you did the install, and that there was a user agreement.  You even quoted part of the user agreement back...  FTDI made a change for which the existing software, (read that as software which appears to have been running an illegally cloned chip), was not prepared, while FTDI's software, (read that as software to run a chip the maker believes is their own), was able to deal with the changes...  Legally I believe the problem is your problem because you failed to fully understand the ramifications of YOUR decision to run the driver install software. 

Just because you don't like a change made by software, and because that change toasted your cable does not make it a willful and malicious damage to your property.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: NK7Z on October 26, 2014, 09:15:17 AM
No, they don't. They do have the right to file a legal action...
We have already established, that FDTI did not change your setup, YOU changed your setup by installing the provided drivers, and agreeing to their terms and conditions by pressing the agree button during install.  FDTI has only responding to the bad PR they got, and made a decision to remove the code that YOU executed which changed your setup.

In my opinion, a good choice on their part to remove the software bomb, but they have been totally within their legal rights to do as they have done...  They could have wiped your HD, and if you agreed to it, (by installing the drivers, and agreeing as you did), it becomes legal...  It is not right, nor is the decent thing to do, but it is legal.  The key here is you agreed to the terms and conditions.

18 U.S. Code § 1030 (a)(5)(A) "(a) Whoever— (5) (A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer; ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section"

You just do not get it do you??? It does not apply to counterfeit hardware. You have no right to use counterfeit products. You can use them till you get caught. Take it up with OEM for adaptor

You just do not get it, do you? FTDI has no right to consciously alter my equipment without legal action. FTDI seems to be getting it now.
FTDI did not alter your equipment, they altered your software.  FTDI got exactly what they wanted...  Think about it...  A bunch of illegal product got removed, they probably won't get sued, and if they do, they probably won't lose, and if they do lose, they will probably make more money selling new chips to replace the fake ones...  They win...  No matter what happens.  A well thought out legal strategy...  While you will find many more people that agree with you, it does not change the facts.  You appear to have agreed to the changes... 


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 26, 2014, 09:22:26 AM
GGL is a bit brain dead on this. While a consumer may not be legally accountable for unwittingly using pirate hardware they none the less have no right to expect it to work and be supported. This is reason for copyrights and patents. If other want  to think otherwise then they are brain dead on subject too.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: NK7Z on October 26, 2014, 09:27:36 AM
GGL is a bit brain dead on this. While a consumer may not be legally accountable for unwittingly using pirate hardware they none the less have no right to expect it to work and be supported. This is reason for copyrights and patents. If other want  to think otherwise then they are brain dead on subject too.
Someone, and I believe it may have been you indicated that the OEMs should be held to task, and I agree...  It appears that the OEMs involved did not perform the due diligence as needed, or did not care...  Either way, OEM may be liable to replace the dead cables...  If I had a dead cable, I would contact my OEM for that cable, and demand a replacement, with original chips in it.  In most cases I doubt the customer even knows what is happening along this line, and the chip maker really should have approached the issue differently, but...  Their methods do have a sort of "Darth Vader" like way of fixing the issue.  Message from FTDI to consumers: "These aren't the chips you are looking for... Move along...  Move along..."


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 26, 2014, 09:29:59 AM
GGL is a bit brain dead on this. While a consumer may not be legally accountable for unwittingly using pirate hardware they none the less have no right to expect it to work and be supported. This is reason for copyrights and patents. If other want  to think otherwise then they are brain dead on subject too.
Someone, and I believe it may have been you indicated that the OEMs should be held to task, and I agree...  It appears that the OEMs involved did not perform the due diligence as needed, or did not care...  Either way, OEM may be liable to replace the dead cables...  If I had a dead cable, I would contact my OEM for that cable, and demand a replacement, with original chips in it.  In most cases I doubt the customer even knows what is happening along this line, and the chip maker really should have approached the issue differently, but...  Their methods do have a sort of "Darth Vader" like way of fixing the issue.

It is quite possible that cloning problem is so big that drastic measures may be needed.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 26, 2014, 11:42:58 AM
Just because you don't like a change made by software, and because that change toasted your cable does not make it a willful and malicious damage to your property.

Yes, it does, if the software was written to specifically make your equipment useless.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 26, 2014, 11:44:48 AM
GGL is a bit brain dead on this. While a consumer may not be legally accountable for unwittingly using pirate hardware they none the less have no right to expect it to work and be supported. This is reason for copyrights and patents. If other want  to think otherwise then they are brain dead on subject too.

That doesn't mean very much, coming from you. You might to do some reading on the results of this supposed upgrade. Or not. You don't seem to worry to much about your credibility.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 26, 2014, 03:23:50 PM
GGL is a bit brain dead on this. While a consumer may not be legally accountable for unwittingly using pirate hardware they none the less have no right to expect it to work and be supported. This is reason for copyrights and patents. If other want  to think otherwise then they are brain dead on subject too.

That doesn't mean very much, coming from you. You might to do some reading on the results of this supposed upgrade. Or not. You don't seem to worry to much about your credibility.

Actually it means a lot coming from me. You are just in denial


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: NK7Z on October 26, 2014, 04:01:46 PM
Just because you don't like a change made by software, and because that change toasted your cable does not make it a willful and malicious damage to your property.

Yes, it does, if the software was written to specifically make your equipment useless.
For which you have zero proof as of yet...  Your feelings have zero to do with it, facts are all that count... 

Now that you seem to have entered the universe in which no proof is needed, no proof beyond a vague feeling is offered, and one can just assume that someone is guilty until proven innocent, then get on line and rail, maybe you are right...  However in my world, we all still live under the rule of law, (thank goodness), and until you have something that proves without a shadow of a doubt they plotted to brick your cable, and you prove it in a court of law, you are simply wrong...  In your alternate universe FDTI could sue YOU for using a counterfeit cable, even if you did not know it because YOU have no right to use a counterfeit cable in the first place...  Be careful what you wish for...  I would not want to live in that universe at all...

My guess however is that the next cable you get will be genuine.  I am also growing tired of giving you valid reasons, having you cherry pick answers and ignoring the actual discussion by simply stating over and over again FDTI has no right to  blah blah blah...  So I am done arguing this with you... 

I just leave this with you...  The only person who modified his software is you...  You agreed to the Terms and conditions, and you hit the go button.  You did not take the time to read the agreement, (no one really does anymore), so you got burned...  This is not fun, not not well thought out by FTDI, and probably could, and should have been handled differently by FDTI, but I am not going to assume it was intentional until I see something beyond vague accusations.  Really-- as of now, you are wrong, and it is too bad you lost your cable...  Call your vendor, and demand a replacement cable, you will probably get it.

I am not trying to go off on you here, just point out that your hardware was not modified, only software was modified, and you agreed to the modification...  Take care, and I am sorry you lost your cable...


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KK4GGL on October 26, 2014, 04:04:38 PM
GGL is a bit brain dead on this. While a consumer may not be legally accountable for unwittingly using pirate hardware they none the less have no right to expect it to work and be supported. This is reason for copyrights and patents. If other want  to think otherwise then they are brain dead on subject too.

That doesn't mean very much, coming from you. You might to do some reading on the results of this supposed upgrade. Or not. You don't seem to worry to much about your credibility.

Actually it means a lot coming from me. You are just in denial



AHAH Hah HAHAH HAH Ahhhaha HAHA ahHA ha ha...
Oh, you were serious?
AHAH Hah HAHAH HAH Ahhhaha HAHA ahHA ha ha...


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: K5TED on October 27, 2014, 07:29:38 PM
Not at all but it does about you and not me. Not sure why you are defending a illegal clone. It does not brick any device, only cloned chips. What better way to stop inferior cloned chips than kill them when using a OEM driver. FTDI spend time and money on drivers why support clones for free.

So using your logic you would have no problem with your car being destroyed if you happened to purchase gasoline that was produced from black market sanctioned Iranian oil, correct?

Your logic equates the loss of multi thousand dollar vehicle with loss of a $9.95 USB Serial converter?

How would you feel if your multi thousand dollar vehicle lost control and crammed you and itself into a tree because of a counterfeit computer chip?

Context and hyperbole mostly don't mix..


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W7SMJ on October 27, 2014, 08:26:24 PM
Not at all but it does about you and not me. Not sure why you are defending a illegal clone. It does not brick any device, only cloned chips. What better way to stop inferior cloned chips than kill them when using a OEM driver. FTDI spend time and money on drivers why support clones for free.

So using your logic you would have no problem with your car being destroyed if you happened to purchase gasoline that was produced from black market sanctioned Iranian oil, correct?
No digitally signed user agreement for gas yet, so your question does not apply.

Please explain.  What digitally signed user agreement?  The driver was installed by Windows Update.  When during this process is the user prompted to accept the user agreement???


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W7SMJ on October 27, 2014, 08:42:16 PM
Not at all but it does about you and not me. Not sure why you are defending a illegal clone. It does not brick any device, only cloned chips. What better way to stop inferior cloned chips than kill them when using a OEM driver. FTDI spend time and money on drivers why support clones for free.

So using your logic you would have no problem with your car being destroyed if you happened to purchase gasoline that was produced from black market sanctioned Iranian oil, correct?

Your logic equates the loss of multi thousand dollar vehicle with loss of a $9.95 USB Serial converter?

How would you feel if your multi thousand dollar vehicle lost control and crammed you and itself into a tree because of a counterfeit computer chip?

Context and hyperbole mostly don't mix..

We are discussing principle here so yes, I am equating the two.  What makes you think these chips are only found in only $9.95 USB Serial cables?  These chips may be found in very expensive equipment.

As far as losing control of a vehicle and crashing into a tree due to a counterfeit chip, you can bet I would be extremely angry if it was due to the bricking of that chip by a device driver that was specifically written to brick the device by a vendor like FTDI.  I think I would have a great case!

In any case, if FTDI's actions were so just and within their right, why did they apologize, pull the driver and start work on a new one???


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: K5TED on October 27, 2014, 09:22:52 PM
FTDI pulled the driver because Microsoft asked them to do so. Microsoft is covering their own butt.

What if.. ( I love 'what if').. What if the fake FTDI chip had been unwittingly used in a car computer, made it into your car, failed and caused an accident?

What if a fake chip makes it into an airplane control device? What if it failed while using an FTDI driver that allowed it to function mostly unnoticed until the NTSB pried it out from a smoking crater and discovered the fake chip malfunctioned because it is fake and inherently faulty and sent an Airbus full of folks into eternity? What if a Windows Update the previous day would have killed the chip, thus bringing attention to it yesterday, when it could have been replaced, just before the plane left the hangar in preparation for today's doomed flight?

What if the fake chip makes it into a USB to Serial device in your shack, subsequently malfunctions, randomly changes frequency on your rig while you're in the can, keys up and starts transmitting a KW into a mis-tuned antenna. You return to a smoking hulk and then discover that the fake chip malfunctioned because it is a shoddy item that could have been disabled yesterday by a Windows Update, but wasn't? What if the KW amp burns out a coil out on the antenna, showering sparks onto your roof, causing a rampaging fire that takes out every home on your block? All because of a fake chip that wasn't disabled in yesterday's Windows Update. Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Microsoft is ultimately responsible for drivers that are incorporated into Windows Updates. FTDI is ultimately responsible for making sure its own drivers aren't used with fake devices that can malfunction and cause problems.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W7SMJ on October 28, 2014, 11:39:25 AM
FTDI pulled the driver because Microsoft asked them to do so. Microsoft is covering their own butt.

What if.. ( I love 'what if').. What if the fake FTDI chip had been unwittingly used in a car computer, made it into your car, failed and caused an accident?

What if a fake chip makes it into an airplane control device? What if it failed while using an FTDI driver that allowed it to function mostly unnoticed until the NTSB pried it out from a smoking crater and discovered the fake chip malfunctioned because it is fake and inherently faulty and sent an Airbus full of folks into eternity? What if a Windows Update the previous day would have killed the chip, thus bringing attention to it yesterday, when it could have been replaced, just before the plane left the hangar in preparation for today's doomed flight?

What if the fake chip makes it into a USB to Serial device in your shack, subsequently malfunctions, randomly changes frequency on your rig while you're in the can, keys up and starts transmitting a KW into a mis-tuned antenna. You return to a smoking hulk and then discover that the fake chip malfunctioned because it is a shoddy item that could have been disabled yesterday by a Windows Update, but wasn't? What if the KW amp burns out a coil out on the antenna, showering sparks onto your roof, causing a rampaging fire that takes out every home on your block? All because of a fake chip that wasn't disabled in yesterday's Windows Update. Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Microsoft is ultimately responsible for drivers that are incorporated into Windows Updates. FTDI is ultimately responsible for making sure its own drivers aren't used with fake devices that can malfunction and cause problems.

Agreed, Microsoft is covering their own butt because they know FTDI's actions won't stand up in court.

You have a lot of great "what if" scenarios, you're just missing the part where all these calamities were a result of FTDI's malicious driver update causing the chip failure.

I am unaware of any reliability issues with counterfeited FTDI chips.  Are you able to provide any data to support your assertion? 

FTDI's actions were done specifically to protect their IP, not for some noble reason like to weed out inferior or potentially deadly counterfeit chips, LOL!


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: W8JX on October 28, 2014, 02:12:23 PM
FTDI did nothing illegal and has no court worries. MS is just worried about PR and nothing more.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: G8YMW on October 28, 2014, 02:55:15 PM
I'm sorry but FTDI HAS done wrong and have left themselves wide open for civil action.
Why didn't they go after the chip manufacturers and the companies that used them?
Most people  wouldn't know what was in the devices so why are they being penalized for someone else's cock up?


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KD8MJR on October 28, 2014, 04:23:29 PM
I'm sorry but FTDI HAS done wrong and have left themselves wide open for civil action.
Why didn't they go after the chip manufacturers and the companies that used them?
Most people  wouldn't know what was in the devices so why are they being penalized for someone else's cock up?

I agree with that!
The only problem is that going after the Chinese is an impossible task.  You first need the various governments to get on board and that seems to be an impossibility since the Chinese seem to have everyone in their pockets.


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: K5TED on October 28, 2014, 05:07:33 PM
Ignorance is no excuse.

There is no special clause that says if you are bereft of technical computer knowledge, but yet allow your computer to be automatically updated, including driver software for devices for which you have no expertise or understanding, and have knowingly installed hardware the provenance of which you do not know or care, that you are in a special reserved group of consumers entitled to nanny state or civil remuneration for your own ignorant stupidity.

In my opinion, if you are on the side of the whiners complaining about FTDI once and for all drawing attention to the problem of hardware counterfeiting, and taking proactive measures to prevent use of FTDI software with illegally cloned devices, then you are absolutely wrong, and fall into the hippy dippy societal and technical leech entitlement government cheese gimme gimme free camp.

Microsoft owns the distribution part of this, and is ultimately responsible for the disabling of possibly thousands of USB connected self gratification devices, which I suspect is the root trigger of most of these anti-FTDI posts.   



 


Title: RE: FTDI serial to USB driver surprize
Post by: KD8MJR on October 28, 2014, 06:22:21 PM
Ted you do know that about 95% of windows users have no idea how to even turn on or off user updates :D
On all of our machines I have turned it off, but for most they don't have a clue that the option even exists.

BTW This has been a very good debate, it's nice to hear an intelligent debate on a forum.
I wish people at the top would start to listen and get to the root of this problem and stop hand holding with the Chinese.  I have said this before in another post.  I am very familiar with Chinese business practices, our company does direct business with them and I have several friends who fly over there a couple of times each year to do negotiations for merchandise.  From everything I have heard them say and from my own experience, these people are not our friends, they see America as a rung on the ladder to success and they are not afraid to step on us.  Personally I have no idea why people who go to political rallies with the old Independence flag "Don't Tread On Me" don't cut out the politics and start diverting their energy towards the real enemy.  While we remain divided they keep getting stronger.