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1  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Dayton SDR News? on: May 17, 2013, 07:31:31 AM
Apache Labs appears to be a no show!  Too bad as I have a pocket full US $$$ too!
They did not get their visas and have to wait 2 more weeks to get them  Cry

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
2  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Flex 6700 vs Anan 100D on: May 09, 2013, 12:33:52 PM
The annoying thing is that at almost no cost (AND without changing the PA in any way) the Anan radios could have provided a way to significantly improve the transmitter performance.

Adding a relay to switch the rx input to sample the forward power would have allowed either semi open loop adaptive predistortion (And could be done entirely in the baseband processing computer) or a cartesian loop (Really needs to be in the fpga), either of which should be good for 20dB improvement without breaking any sweat at all, and 30+db of improvement is possible.
-31dB ref PEP (From the Anan100D brochure) really is not great, -51 would be almost best in breed....
Even if nothing else, it would have allowed the waterfall to show the transmit spectrum as measured.

In the case of the 100D, it would have been possible to go one better, and sample both current and voltage at the aerial socket, which means that load mag Z and phase angle could be calculated. This opens up some interesting possibilities if one was to get smart with the drain power supply to the fets (This would obviously need PA changes).

Now granted, it is not a massive thing if starting with a hermes or similar to add that relay and appropriate attenuators and such, but it would have been nearly trivial to integrate onto the PA board in the ANAN series rigs and would have made all sorts of improvements only a software patch away.

73 Dan.

You visibly do not follow the HPSDR reflector and listen to the weekly TeamSpeak audio. Such work is currently being done but is not yet prime for distribution in the current release of the software.
Using LDMOS 50V PA the TX IMD is improved by 30dB, less for BJT or other types of MosFets (no numbers yet published for these type of transistors).
When the software is available the improvement in TX IMD can be added at almost no cost: a RF sampler + attenuator and a relay which can be switched by one of the several digital outputs available on Hermes/Angelia boards.
As of today any rig using Hermes/Angelia can monitor and MEASURE its own TX IMD.

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
3  eHam Forums / QRP / RE: Is the KX3 all it's cracked up to be or fake? on: April 05, 2013, 12:41:52 PM
I'm not sure what power level RSGB's using, but the ARRL measured the KX3's IMD at around -95ish dBm (I don't have the exact number in front of me). Maybe I'm missing something, but that number seems fine to me.
Really?
4  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Apache Labs on: March 10, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
Some companies want you to imagine the future - the distant future!
Others can show you the future. Apache Labs will be at Dayton and will have products to sell.
Ain't no longer the future I guess.

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
5  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Apache Labs on: March 08, 2013, 01:53:49 PM
....
 The only thing pan adapter radios will be good for soon is watching all the splatter on the ham bands. It wont be good for much
else because so many companies and hams have such a low level of technical understanding and reasoning. Actually its worst than that, they just dont even get it why TX IMD is such an important.
Not so: once you get your Hermes and build your 50V LDMOS PA you build an RF tap, connect it to your PA, connect the whole thing to a dummy load. You eventually connect an attenuator to your RF tap so you can connect it safely to the RX connector of Hermes and download the single RX version of HPSDR PowerSDR which can do full duplex. Voila, you can adjust your PA for the best IMD and instead of ranting you can brag on how fantastic is the IMD of your PA.

Don't forget, you also get a free VNA with Hermes.

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
6  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Apache Labs on: March 08, 2013, 01:00:48 PM
Do they take Paypal now?  I  wanted to order a Hermes but they did not take Paypal. They wanted me to use some Indian transaction processing system that I did not really trust.
Ordered Hermes at the end of January and paid via Paypal, no problem whatsoever.
Regarding the PA I totally agree with you but I have also seen you rating about IMD for years.
Why don't you design one instead of spending all this time ranting? Ham radio manufacturers do not seem to really care about that.
Suggestion:
MRFE6VP6300HSR3 directly driven by Hermes -> 150W out with excellent IMD and indestructible.

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
7  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Apache Labs on: March 05, 2013, 06:11:46 PM
Not much discussion here on the new Apache Labs transceivers.
....
You are right about that, the hot item is the DVB-T Dongle with 114 posts and 23,936 views  Embarrassed.
I guess SDR is a mysterious thing for many and they are not ready to invest $1500.00-$2900.00 just to see what it is all about, $20.00 is OK but the performance cannot compare with the ANAN transceivers or the QSR1.
They also sell the OpenHPSDR Hermes board ($895.00) which is a 500mW full duplex exciter and is the base of the ANAN-10, ANAN-100. The ANAN-100D uses the Angelia board which is similar to Hermes but with 2 ADC (2 identical hardware receivers) and a more powerful FPGA.
Exciting times ahead!
Feel free to start a discussion, just posting a link is usually frowned upon and the topic is likely to be deleted.

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
8  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Newbee needs help, Software support for kenwood and icom rigs see ...... on: March 04, 2013, 08:05:25 PM
Visit:
http://www.dxlabsuite.com/
Excellent and free.

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
9  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Flex 1500 Amplifier Recommendations ? on: March 01, 2013, 03:57:54 PM
Hi Ken,
I see a reason why someone would use a QRP rig and put a amp behind it:
His main activity is outdoors QRP where you don't want to carry a cement block, a brick is heavy enough, and neither does he want to carry a car battery (these 100W rig when run at 5W still use the same huge amount of power on RX).
And once in a while he wants to use a little more power at home like Michael doing a contest. This without having to invest in a 100W rig.

At the end of last year I decided to enter the 10m ARRL contest in the QRP category (using my 100W rig) just to see. I did it very casually but let me tell you: it's tough and I made a lot less contacts than expected.

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
10  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Flex 1500 Amplifier Recommendations ? on: March 01, 2013, 03:40:43 PM
Hi Michael,
I think you get pumped up too easily and for no reason.
My first post did not quote anyone, was not directed to you or anyone in particular. A limited number of hams post on this thread but as of today there has been 16,453 views of this thread. I presume some readers wonder what is this IMD stuff all about and what it is important. This the reason I made the first post.
You made a post quoting me and saying:
Quote
But hey, let's not let more  real world application of how the XCVR is actually used get in the way of a good bashing session.
A bashing session!!!
My second post was trying to show you that there was no bashing on my part but it looks like you did not really bother to read it, a lot of the blah-blah-bah was not directed to you but
Quote
What I was trying to do was to show the guy who think it is Chinese, it is not.
whoever the guy is.
If I want to criticize someone I am not afraid to do so by mentioning his name and as you can see I do not hide under a pseudonym contrary to some who do.
What I noticed is that Flexers always think they are under attack for no reason, The Flexer Persecution Syndrome,  and also have absolutely no sense of humor.
A little humor before the contest:
I like fishing but the fish seems to always outsmart me. I use bait, small hooks, big hooks, golden hooks, magic hooks but nothing seems to work.
With Flexers you don't need bait, hooks. You don't even need a fishing rod, they just impale themselves on whatever stick is laying around. I am sure that if someone did some DNA sequencing on a Flexer he would find that they are closely related to lemmings.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Good luck in the contest, no bad feelings and no splatter  Grin

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
11  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Flex 1500 Amplifier Recommendations ? on: February 28, 2013, 06:44:35 PM
Correction:
The Flexer Persecution Syndrome.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
12  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Flex 1500 Amplifier Recommendations ? on: February 28, 2013, 06:39:00 PM
Disclaimer:
I have nothing against bananas.

73 de PJ2BVU
13  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Flex 1500 Amplifier Recommendations ? on: February 28, 2013, 06:36:22 PM
-22dB measured by ARRL!
That is -16dB as ARRL numbers are inflated by 6dB.

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
If I'm not mistaken, that's being measured at full power output. It NEVER takes full power output of my 1500 to drive my amplifier, it's typically less than half depending on the band. But hey, let's not let more  real world application of how the XCVR is actually used get in the way of a good bashing session. What fun would that be? Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
Michael, W4HIJ

I wonder why Flexers think they are always under attack.
We are taking about the Flex-1500 and someone stated that ARRL measured IMD at -22dB on 40m. I cannot attest of the veracity of this statement but as no one said anything to the contrary I assume it is true.
I also assume that whatever they measured -22dB is accurate.
I also assume that when they found -22dB they double, triple checked the result as -22dB is not that good.
It could be that the unit they tested was below the norm or that Flex improved the rig after the review.
It is not the point, I just used -22dB as it was what was posted.
Or may be you think that when I say "inflated by 6dB" it is a form of bashing.
You are free to Google "Transmit IMD". May be you will find a link to National Instruments for example:
Quote
If F1 and F2 are the frequencies of the two tones, then the third-order distortion products occur on both sides of these tones at 2F2 – F1 and 2F1 – F2. Assuming that the power levels of the two tones are equal, IMD3 is the difference between the power of the fundamental signals and the third-order products, as defined in the following equation:

IMD3 = Po -Po3

where o refers to the output of the UUT, Po3 is the power level of one of the output third-order products, and Po is the power level of one of the fundamental tones.
I placed the emphasis on one, it is not in the original text.
Wherever you look, only ARRL uses this 2 tone PEP stuff.
Yes, IMD is measured at full power, that's the way ARRL does and not specifically for Flex radios but for any radio. Do you think ARRL is bashing all the rig manufacturers? That is a way to compare different rigs, you compare bananas with bananas (2 tone PEP at full power is still a valid comparison).
You said that you never (need to) drive your amp with 5W, I never said you did and I never recommended to do so. You drive it at around 2W and it is a good thing, it will improve things but until someone measure the IMD at 2W you cannot tell by how much.
Now imagine the guy who want to drive an amp to get 100W and does not have an idea of what this IMD stuff is and buys a 100W amp. If it is FCC approved it cannot have more than 15dB gain if I am not mistaken. If it is 15dB gain he can drive it with a little more than 3W, if it has less than 15dB gain he will drive it at 5W.
What I was trying to do was to show the guy who think it is Chinese, it is not. It is not rocket science: if it is a linear scale - like I double my power or I halve my power - you use multiplication and division. If it is a log scale like when using dB you use addition and subtraction. You don't know what is 100dB? I don't, I just use a conversion table or a dB calculator. Just remember to use the correct table depending if it is relative to voltage or power. For the transmit IMD just do a little reading, nothing complicated. And when you read the review of the Flex-1500 and it says 3rd order products IMD -22dB on 40m you have an idea of what it means and what will happen when you drive your 1kW amp with the Flex at full power (the 6dB difference is just a factor of 2 difference and it won't make much of a difference for the station on the adjacent frequency).
You can even use the ARRL handbook as a reference, there is some valuable information in there.
Oh my Gosh!
ARRL Handbook 2002 page 17.5
Quote
IMD Ratio
If a pair of equal-amplitude signals create IMD products, the IMD ratios (IMR) are the difference, in dB, between each of of the two tones and each of the IMD products (see Fig 17.6).
Fig 17.6 - Top: IMD ratio (as displayed on a spectrum analyzer).
It looks like they had to call it IMR in order to use their 2 tone PEP magic formula.

Now if you think that my previous post was a personal attack on you or Flex you have serious problems.
May be the Flexer syndrome  Grin

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
14  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Flex 1500 Amplifier Recommendations ? on: February 28, 2013, 10:13:58 AM
I want to add to the latest part of my previous post in order to avoid any confusion.
The contact was made in CW which is similar to transmitting one tone and there is no IMD in this case as there is no other tone to intermodulate with. It was just to show that you do not need much power to pollute the band.
IMD is a problem only in SSB (voice or digital).
Now do not think that because SSB transmits only the upper/lower side band the ARRL measurement makes sense by considering only one IMD product.
It is true that right after the XTal filter you have only USB/LSB and that the low power stages following the filter are usually class A, not contributing much to IMD. The problem is in the final(s), it is were IMD is produced, and the final(s) is fiollowed by a low pass filter which, as mentioned previously by Tom, will not filter these spurs.

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
15  eHam Forums / Software Defined Radio / RE: Flex 1500 Amplifier Recommendations ? on: February 28, 2013, 08:19:34 AM
Tom and Stan, you are correct and it is also true that these numbers can be meaningless when one is not use to dBs. Even for myself dB is not my natural language and I always have to rely on conversion tables, not forgetting that dBs relative to voltage are not the same as dBs relative to power.
The best is to take a concrete example.
ARRL says that IMD3 on 40m is -22dB for the Flex-1500. As this number is inflated by 6dB the real value will be -16dB.
What does that mean?
If the PEP power of the 2 tones is y Watts the PEP power of the 2 IMD3 products will be 16dB below y Watts.
When considering power -16dB means that the power in the IMD3 products will be y * 0.0251 Watts.
If you use a 100W linear following the rig IMD3 won't get better, only worse. Let say that this linear is perfect:
100 * 0.0251 = 2.51 Watts. Not bad!  Grin
Now another example:
Some years ago I built an early Softrock RX/TX (using a 2N3866 for the PA). I built it for 40m and it was delivering 750mW.
I used it with a magnetic loop 2m above ground.
My best QSO: a Russian station 10,000km away. Sure it took the ham a lot of time to copy my call sign but we made it.
Now imagine 2.51 Watts into a beam.

Jean-Claude PJ2BVU
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