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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: multiple antenna/ single feedline....
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on: June 14, 2013, 06:52:50 PM
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I would suggest you keep it simple. Put up, even if you have to bend it into a "U" or "Z" shape, the longest center fed "dipole" you can and feed it with ladderline or 300 ohm line to a decent tuner or tuner and balun. The larger/longer wire will have considerably more capture area and most likely better efficiency than a buddipole or hamstick. You could also try a closed or open loop around the perimeter of the ceiling of the room(s). My last choice would be one of the small inductively wound commercial antennas.
If your gutters are metal, laying an antenna in them would be pointless; no way that would work. If they are plastic it may be OK.
Very respectfully, and I mean this to help you, not to be condescending: The best thing you could do at this point is pick up a good antenna book such as the ARRL Antenna Book and put in some study time to get a better understanding of basic antenna theory. There are a number of things you likely can do for an antenna that would be better than some short commercial wound whip, but you need to understand what and how it might be matched and fed. Again, very respectfully, the more challenging your QTH and antenna situation, the more important it is to understand theory as it will definitely give you more options. Difficult antenna situation usually lend themselves to homebrew antennas. The antenna books contain other antennas that you may see and find an easy way to modify it to fit your situation. Your situation is unique and a few comments or suggestion from on here may not be enough to give you a good result. Knowledge is your best friend in this situation.
73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: running back a random wire for tuning purposes?
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on: June 12, 2013, 08:38:42 AM
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Hi, Again....
Re: the Antenna Book. If money is not an object, it is nice to have a new copy, but not that critical unless you are into some more advanced projects. Frankly, some of the older ones, such as in the late '60's, 70's or 80's, which can be found very cheaply on Ebay, etc. are every bit as good for basic antenna theory. The basic technical theory is about 99% unchanged. About all that has changed is that we now have more advanced tools and modeling to work with antennas. What you are seeking is some of the graphics about basic antennas, current distribution, impedance as it relates to wavelength, etc. Seeing graphic explanations really makes a lot of stuff come together. The old books are fine for that and some of them actually have some graphs that are not in the newer ones. Remember, "back then" most hams built their own antennas, so the old books are just fine for DIY. Another really excellent book, if you could find one of the earlier copies cheap, is ON4UN's book "Low Band Dx'ing". It is really an antenna book for the most part....and lots of other good stuff in it; well written.
I am not familiar with that Antenna Basics book, but it sounds like a good place to start. I am sure there is some good stuff in it.
Antennas and antenna theory are NOT particularly complicated, but there is a fair amount of "stuff" related to them that is not intuitive and a good book with graphic explanations, graphs and pictures makes things a lot easier to understand. Another problem existing in the antenna world is a lot of myths and misconceptions.....and a known accurate source of technical info like the ARRL Antenna Book or other good book avoids those.
I have been flamed on here a couple of times for recommending that people make the effort to open a book and study antennas, but it is simply because that is the RIGHT answer in the long run: knowledge. The hard fact is you just cannot cover an issue as broad as antennas in a few paragraphs on an internet site. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I kind of assume most hams want to know WHY something works or works better. No radio station is any better than its antenna. A $5,000 radio connected to a crappy, poor antenna is still a poor station! .....whereas a QRP rig connected to a well built, highly effective antenna can be amazing.
Bottomline: any time and effort you put into learning about antennas and basic antenna theory WILL pay off in a better signal and more fun.
Good luck & 73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: running back a random wire for tuning purposes?
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on: June 11, 2013, 07:59:56 PM
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A 45 ft. piece of wire is about 1/4 wavelength at about 5.2 Mhz. At that frequency the "load" would roughly in the area of 37 ohms and not reactive....again at 5.2 Mhz, but that is not a ham band (well.... it is close to the 60 M band if you are interested in 60M). On any ham band the impedance load presented by that wire will be complex and probably not too "friendly". Depending on the range of your ATU, it may or may not be able to deal with it. Don't be surprised if it can't find a match.
Also, remember that feeding an antenna directly out of your tranceiver makes the tranceiver chassis, mike cord, coax, wires to the power supply, essentially PART of the antenna ground system, which is why you want a decent/effective earth ground or counterpoise. This can increase the possibility of RF bothering the rig or power supply etc. if the power is very high. If ALL you want to do is listen, then there is very little concern....that wire will "pick up stuff" on almost any frequency you want to listen on; it should work pretty well for casual listening. Transmitting into that wire (which the ATU has to do to find a match) is a very different situation.
Again, if the ONLY thing you want to do is receive, then making the ATU "happy" is not much of an issue. Adding a ground or counterpoise wire may or may not increase the strength of received signals. You can experiment with that to see what works best and it may change by band; just look at the S meter and see what works best. Also, if you want to you could cut the wire at places where there is a 1/4 wave length (or 3/4) on various bands and then "jumper" them as necessary for the various bands, but I suspect that on receive-only, just the wire will work just fine. I would try the simple solution first!
73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Amplifiers / RE: HELP!!! What did I do wrong???
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on: June 11, 2013, 07:14:39 PM
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Ok.... to "overkill" the trouble shooting, but this will make absolutely clear that there is NO problem if the Amp is NOT in the circuit: Totally disconnect the amplifier out of the line-up and connect the tranceiver directly to the tuner. If you can tune up the rig, tuner, etc. and get 1:1 SWR and the rig operates properly with low SWR, etc, then the problem pretty much has to be related to the amplifier.
You asked about possible items: could be several, but what jumps out at me are the following possibilities: bad T/R relay, a bad component or damaged wiring in the INPUT circuit, shorted tubes, etc. etc. Worst case probably would be a burned or damaged band switch. I guess it is possible that the amp has been incorrectly modified in some way.
The comments about turning the amp controls to a full setting are quite correct; you don't want to do that. On Tune and Load capacitors, there, roughly speaking, is not "more or less": it is either tuned correctly or not ! (within the range of the capacitor).
Respectfully, there is absolutely no substitute for spending time getting to know the owner's manual.
A friend picked up one of those amps and brought it over and we played with it. Those tubes can be EASILY damaged by improper operation/tuning. I suspect those tubes are getting hard to find and/or moderately expensive, so avoiding abuse could save a lot of hassle and money. Be careful.... keep key down tuning periods down to a few seconds then let up and allow the tube plates to cool several seconds. Eventually, this will get quite easy for you; just takes a little time to get the hang of it. Log the correct control settings so you can go back to them. Start out with moderately low drive from the tranceiver and work up to full output with short tuning sessions. DO NOT try to increase the drive past the point where the output QUITS increasing or increases very little. Doing that just gives you a distorted, dirty signal!! Best way to tune is generally to tune to full power, then reduce the drive a little. That should give you a nice clean signal. If the Owner's Manual has different instructions, follow the Owner's Manual !! The people who design and build stuff usually know the most about it !!
Find a clear frequency to test/practice on if you don't have a dummy load, because you are transmitting a signal and taking up a frequency that could be used for a QSO or interfering with an on-going conversation.
If you have not spent some time on W8JI.com in the amplifier area, it is strongly recommended so you develop some understanding of amplifier tuning, etc. and why, etc. LOT of good guidance.
I sincerely hope you find bad coax, but I suspect that is very unlikely if the station is operating properly with the amplifier pulled out of the system chain.
73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Amplifiers / RE: HELP!!! What did I do wrong???
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on: June 11, 2013, 12:46:28 PM
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You may have done this, however, did you adjust/tune the antenna tuner first to get a match (1:1 SWR) using just the transceiver on low power and the amp in "standby" (or turned off)? The amp should be used only after a correct match has been obtained with the tuner. Note that the tuning of the tuner can be very critical on some bands/situations.
Bottom line: the amp must see good low SWR load presented by the tuner.
If everything is operating properly barefoot but the SWR goes nuts when you key the amp and drive it, it raises some concerns of an issue in the amp..... Which could be one of several things.
Hopefully, you will find something external to the amp.
73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: Confused About Random Wires, Long Wires, Baluns, Ununs, Grounds, Etc.
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on: May 18, 2013, 10:19:23 PM
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KD2CJJ:
Since when is guiding someone to a good reference book and suggesting someone take advantage of the information therein being a "troll"? Especially for such a lengthy and complex subject as balun design and antenna matching? I apologize for not submitting my post to the IEEE and yourself for editing prior to posting it. By your definition I would have been even more of an "old troll" if I had additionally recommended Dr.Jerry Sevic's (W2FMI) book on baluns.
Make no mistake, there are technical errors in your post too, however, I learned a long time ago never to get into a technical debate with some self appointed "expert" who degenerates to derogatory personal attacks on others whos post he disagrees with. Just because something in a post doesn't meet your definition doesn't mean you are correct.
Your call shows you are newly licensed. Just curious, how many years of amateur and professional experience do you have in HF communications systems?
-- K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: SWR problem
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on: May 18, 2013, 09:11:11 AM
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You need to start a sequential, methodical troubleshooting program. The previous posts have some very good info/suggestions.
Start with the radio. Absolutely confirm it and even possibly the power supply are OK. Use a dummy load.
Check the coax and connectors carefully and check them with an ohmmeter, wiggle and aggressively MOVE all cable and connectors, etc. Could you have water in the coax or some part of the antenna or connector at the antenna?
Double check ALL mechanical connections, screws, nuts, bolts, EVERYWHERE, including grounds, etc. Don't overlook the ground connections in the shack.
At those power levels, the possibility of arcing is quite small, especially since with that type of antenna and coax, the operating voltage on the system at that SWR is pretty low.
I had a somewhat similar problem with my 40M vertical.....problem turned out to be a poor, possibly corroded connection on the ground circuit at the antenna.
Good luck. 73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: ARRL Antenna Book
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on: May 18, 2013, 08:52:51 AM
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Actually, there are some nice charts and graphs in some of the older....like early 1970 and before books that are quite handy and not in the newer books. There is also a lot more info on phased arrays in the older books. There also may be a little bit more on practical matching networks, etc. since back in those days more people built antennas, matching networks and tuners, etc. I am not saying those books are better....they do lack some of the "good stuff" in the new books, but the chapters on basic antenna theory and many of the how to articles are worth having. Those old books can be had very cheaply at hamfests and Ebay, etc. Having a series of antenna books spread over quite a few years is handy, but it is not a life changer.
The sad thing is how darn expensive the new books are getting. I agree with the 10 year spacing between Antenna books unless money is not an object.
FYI: another very good book is "Low Band DXing" by ON4UN. It is also from the ARRL. Basically an antenna book. Excellent. Actually, I kind of like his first two books the best in terms of construction articles. If you can find one of those cheap, I would jump on it.
73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: Confused About Random Wires, Long Wires, Baluns, Ununs, Grounds, Etc.
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on: May 17, 2013, 10:32:15 PM
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A random end fed wire is an UNbalanced antenna. If your tuner has an UNbalanced output you are good to go. All a balun would really do is introduce losses because it would see impedances way distant from its designed input and output impedances. The key to avoiding RF in the shack is a really good RF ground system that is connected to the tuner chassis via short, heavy/low inductance leads. If you can't do that, then I suppose pressing a balun into service to feed the antenna out away from the shack is the second alternative, but it is not without its own problems (losses in coax and balun core). If you do go the balun route, you cannot just use any garden variety balun. You need one that is specifically designed for high SWR and high Voltage service. e.g. a "tuner" balun.
I have run legal limit to a random wire several times with no problems at all, however I had a LARGE, extensive ground system connected to the tuner chassis. No problems at all with RF in the shack. You have to give the RF somewhere to go (ground system) that is a low impedance.
Keep in mind that a balun is not a magic box that solves all problems between the antenna and rig. A balun is nothing more than an impedance transformer that is designed to operate with the input line (50 ohm coax) equal to the balun's input impedance (50 ohms) and then it transforms that to whatever the designed output impedance is. In the process, it can be designed to convert an UNbalanced input (coaxial cable) to a balance output to feed ladderline, 300 ohm twin lead, etc. If you connect a balun with a BALANCED output to the end of an end fed wire used on all band it will see wildly different complex impedances (on the various bands) from an UN-balanced load.....that is NOT a happy marriage. In such cases a balun *usually* will provide some choking impedance to (hopefully) keep RF off the coax but in such a case it is almost impossible to know what is really going on in the balun and often there is a lot of loss in the core because it is operating so far out of its designed parameters.
Very respectfully, the best way to reduce your confusion is to go to an accurate source of information like the ARRL Antenna Book and put in some study time. This whole subject is considerably beyond a few internet posts and there is a TON of misinformation and myth surrounding baluns and their CORRECT application. The time you put in will reduce your confusion, frustrations and likely avoid some problems and ultimately have a better signal.
73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: Antenna Help
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on: May 16, 2013, 08:32:30 PM
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Hi, Randy.
No doubt, you have a pretty challenging antenna situation. One thing about that end fed wire is that you MUST have a decent earth ground or counterpoise for it work against. Not knowing how that wire was installed, even with 100 W, there is high voltage on the end of the wire, and if it was positioned just wrong near wood, it is not impossible to have a fire hazard. Hopefully, you know exactly how and where that wire is physically terminated. If you have no idea what is going on with that wire, I would limit it to moderately low power. Certainly, you would absolutely not want to run high power in that situation. That said, yes, it would appear the chances of RFI are pretty high, especially if your grounding is marginal.
You didn't say if you were on the ground or second floor. Your idea of some kind of indoor loop makes some sense. Loops are a little less effected by other conductors in the area. They are also usually a balanced antenna. Candidly, you have a pretty steep up hill battle antenna wise.
In all seriousness, the most important thing you can do at this point is to get a good idea of options for antennas and methods of feeding them. By far the best way to do that is to pick up a copy of the ARRL Antenna Book and put in some serious study time getting a good basic knowledge of antenna theory and design. It is not all that complicated. Knowledge is by far the most important weapon in your arsenal in this case. Getting a number of suggestions off an internet site will help, but it is no substituted for REAL understanding of antennas and their care and feeding. You probably have more options than you think antenna wise, but the trick becomes how to match and feed them....and that is where some study time will pay off. You can pick up an older copy of the ARRL Antenna Book off of Ebay, etc. quite cheaply and the info and data is still totally accurate. Books from the 70's and 80's or even earlier, can be had quite cheaply. This would be a great investment in your case. You are not in a "consumer plug and play" situation. You are going to have to homebrew an antenna if you want decent results and that takes some solid knowledge.
73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: Unhooking Station Equipment Before A Thunderstorm
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on: May 15, 2013, 08:02:28 PM
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Hi.
First, those taking the position that you may fail to disconnect are CORRECT. I *try* to disconnect but there have been cases when I got distracted, etc. and didn't get it done and had some white knuckle moments during some storms. We have very severe lightning around here in the spring severe weather season; strokes that make AWG # 2 look really small ! I absolutely do not want lightning coming in the house, consequently, I have a bulkhead plate ground OUTSIDE the house for those antennas with coax and my ladderline antenna is disconnected and grounded to the same point OUTSIDE. Inside, I disconnect the coax from the rig and connect it to a heavy ground cable. I also pull and disconnect ALL AC power connectors. The AC power line is a MAJOR source of residential lightning damage.
A lot of people want to leave the rig connected all the time for convenience..... that is a choice. My take is that this is a HOBBY. I do not need nor want to be on the radio when there is lightning in the area. The hassle to me is a minor inconvenience compared to the much improved lightning protection I get by keeping cables and ladderline disconnected and grounded outside the house. Again... this is a HOBBY and I prioritize accordingly. "Different strokes for different folks...." You must religiously disconnect after ALL and any operation if you want to minimize the chance of human error. I actually have a homemade red/green reminder that I keep at the operating position just to make sure I am aware of the status of outside grounding.
Disconnecting and grounding outside IS the best way to keep a hit to your antenna from entering the house, rig, etc. IF you do ground the transmission lines out there, that program is only as good as you make it......and you absolutely do not want to try to disconnect and ground when lightning is already in the area and that is the best argument for other types of protection IN ADDITION to disconnect and ground. You also MUST have a large, effective ground system at that outdoor ground point and ideally, that should be your single point ground. Lots of people don't want the inconvenience of disconnecting....that is a choice but requires more protection.
The worst case is disconnecting and leaving the coax line "floating" ungrounded. That is begging for a disaster.
Regardless of best efforts , a major hit by a large bolt can yield unpredictable results. We are talking MEGA watts and MEGA volts here..... Obviously, if money is not an issue, you can develop a protection system that is pretty much bullet proof, but for most hams, there is some limit to money, and disconnecting and grounding outside will go a long way toward reducing problems indoors.....note I did not say "guarantee" ! .
73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: 40 meter Double Extended Zepp
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on: May 14, 2013, 12:02:57 PM
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Hi, again....
Whether to cut a slit in a board or use some kind of BRASS bolts and nuts to feed thru the board are kind of your choice. Pros and Cons about equal. One (to me) significant advantage of using feed through brass bolts would be that you can easily disconnect the transmission line outside and ground it OUTSIDE in the event of lightning, etc. That is HUGE at my QTH as we have a lot of bad lightning in the spring and summer. I sleep a LOT better knowing the ladderline is grounded outdoors, about 20 ft. from the house/shack. Whether you run the line through a slit or the bolts, I would strongly recommend you put some kind of small additional insulation around the line (couple of layers of electrical tape) or shrink tubing or small diameter vinyl tubing around the bolts. Wood can become moist which is not good. There can be very high voltage at that point on some bands so a little extra insulation is worth the effort.
You are probably aware of this, but just to be safe: With ladderline or any other parallel conductor line operating on multiple bands or to an antenna where there is significant SWR on the line (which is NOT a problem with ladderline due to the low loss), it is also possible to have VERY high voltage at various points on the line. I you are running an amp and approaching legal limit the voltages can be several thousand volts if the SWR is high. Make no mistake: this is a DANGEROUS situation should somebody or a pet come into contact with the line while you are transmitting. Due to the change in wave length, the "hot spots" will change location by band. The hazard is RF burns which are very nasty since RF only flows on the surface of a conductor (skin!!). Ladderline is great, low loss stuff, but you have to understand it and respect it.
73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: 40 meter Double Extended Zepp
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on: May 12, 2013, 07:44:50 PM
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Thanks for the feedback. Appreciated. It helps everybody when the loop gets closed on these situations.
Two quick comments:
The idea of wrapping the "extra" line around something big like a PLASTIC garbage can, etc. is good. I would strongly take exception to the advise that the line should be WITHIN "4 to 6" on each turn. Actually, I would say 4" and 6" SEPARATION between the line sections is a MINIMUM. What you do NOT want is the line close together so it inductively couples and interacts......that will mess up all kinds of things and likely create odd ball impedance in the line etc. The PLASTIC garbage can is good.....just don't make an INDUCTOR !!! If I were doing that I would use 6+ inches. Remember, that with parallel line the RF energy field is AROUND the line, NOT "in it" like coax. I have a similar situation and I run my "extra" ladder line in a big "U" shape around the basement ceiling, suspended about 12" from the ceiling. Wife hates it, but works GREAT ! And at this QTH good signal reports and DX are more important than a smiling wife, at least in the basement! ...chuckle.....
Regarding the extra 6 ft. of wire on one side of the antenna. Congratulations!! You just got a first hand lesson in why Off Center Fed antennas often have issues! You are(were) trying to feed a very UNbalanced antenna with a balanced line and balanced tuner......gee....what could possibly go wrong with that set up?? (sarcasm!). OCF's "work" and radiate, but they are never optimum in any condition or frequency because it is like a square peg into a round hole situation..... the line and the antenna just will never be a happy marriage. RF on the outside of the line or difficulties at the tuner are fairly common issues with OCF's.
73, Hope to catch you on the air. K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: 20m "random" wire length?
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on: May 12, 2013, 07:27:57 PM
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WB6BYU is absolutely correct. You MUST have an RF ground. Otherwise, your rig and power supply wiring is the ground!! .....and that is NOT good.
It would not be my first choice, but you could "ground" it to a cold water pipe, building steel, or even with a blocking capacitor, the AC power ground (worst choice, but *possible*). ....and as noted you can use a 1/4 wave counterpoise wire. The point is that random wire MUST have something to work "against". You just don't push power into a wire; that wire is 1/2 of the antenna SYSTEM....the ground is the other part.
Any way you can make a full wave square loop....that would only be 16 ft. on a side, or a 20 M dipole is 16.5 ft. per side. Some sort of balanced antenna would eliminate the need for an RF ground.
STRONGLY suggest you do a little reading/research in the ARRL Antenna Book to get some ideas and increased knowledge in this area. When you are in a challenging QTH it is even more important to have an understanding of antenna theory, etc.
73, K0ZN
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eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: How bad is it to place an HF antenna in a valley?
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on: May 10, 2013, 10:26:00 PM
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A. You received some good advice on the legal/code situation. You want to see the City Ordnance in WRITING. Those are public documents and completely accessible. Do not take anybody's word for it. The document may specifically address TV dish antennas or something.
B. Talk to some other hams.....see what they have done. Even if you are an "antenna criminal", all they will do is cite you to remove it. You are not going to the state penitentiary for an antenna. "Fear" should not be a factor in your decisions. Personally, I highly doubt any Codes person would ever even see it unless you are building a new house.
C. 10 ft. is EXTREMELY low for a horizontal HF antenna. You would have marginal luck on HF. Consider a vertical.
D. The "valley" location is a non-event on HF. Quit worrying about it. You DO need to worry about putting up the most effective antenna you can for your QTH.
E. Your antenna is arguably the most important piece of equipment in your station. It is what connects your rig to the world. You will have far better luck and more fun in this hobby if you have an understanding of the basics of antennas and their radiation patterns. This subject is way to broad to be covered in a few internet posts. Respectfully: pick up a copy of ARRL ANTENNA BOOK and do a little reading and studying. The time spent will pay you back many times over. The cold fact is that this is a technical hobby and your results will be related to what you know. You can pick up an older copy of the Antenna Book off of Ebay cheap and the info is still good as gold. Money and time very well spent especially if you have some limitations or real estate challenges at your QTH.
73, K0ZN
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