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1  eHam Forums / Amplifiers / RE: basic question on connecting a PA on: October 17, 2012, 08:11:34 PM
BTW, the relay discussed in the previous post is usually an integral part of any manufactured amplifier, and generally installed in any homemade amp.

Phil C. Sr.
k4dpk

This is what I gathered.  And what I didnt know before, thus the OP.  Thanks everyone, Im all straight.
2  eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: physical separation between TX/RX antennas? on: October 17, 2012, 06:33:01 PM
<SNIP>
13 dBm seems extremely low. That is only 20 milliwatts, and I routenly make IMD, desense, and IP3 measurements at +20 dBm or more (100 milliwatts). I've never found a receiver that could be damaged by 100 mW.

What receiver do you have??

73 Tom
Ya'll have lots of good ideas and starting points for me.  Thanks a lot.  Ill probably start off with a coax relay and use it HDX to begin with and later put up the vertical antenna and take some measurements.  Its a QS1R SDR.  Their webpage has 2 pieces of info:
The QS1R typically overloads at +9 to +10 dBm
You should not exceed ~3V pk-pk into 50 ohms. That is about 20 mW or 13 dBm.

Thanks again.  Hope to finally be on the air by the end of the year.

73, AK4YA
3  eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: physical separation between TX/RX antennas? on: October 17, 2012, 10:27:44 AM
The missing pieces of the equation are:

1. Transmitter power
2. Frequency


Lets say 18.1MHz at 54dBm/300watts.  I was hoping for the equation, that way any values could be applied.
Thanks!
4  eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / physical separation between TX/RX antennas? on: October 17, 2012, 07:39:11 AM
If I have a radio whose front end can take up to 13dBm of input before overload/damage,  How much distance should there be between a dipole TX antenna and a vertical RX antenna, given no freq offset (both TX and RX are on the same frequency)?

Is there a rule of thumb or something?  I understand I should model both antennas relative to their position to each other, but as far as the distance between them, Im not sure at that point.
5  eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: using RG6 coax on: October 16, 2012, 11:14:14 AM
from http://www.w8ji.com/g5rv_facts.htm:

Quote
Here are the impedances of the G5RV at resonance near each band where it has a reasonable SWR. This is with no feedline loss, measured right at the twinlead end where coax would connect:

Frequency = 3.7 MHz
Impedance = 17.17 - J 0.2957 ohms
SWR (50 ohm system) = 2.912 (75 ohm system) = 4.368


Frequency = 7.8 MHz
Impedance = 23.7 + J 1.429 ohms
SWR (50 ohm system) = 2.112 (75 ohm system) = 3.166


Frequency = 14.26 MHz
Impedance = 95.9 - J 0.05889 ohms
SWR (50 ohm system) = 1.918 (75 ohm system) = 1.279

Frequency = 20.3 MHz
Impedance = 21.74 - J 0.835 ohms
SWR (50 ohm system) = 2.301 (75 ohm system) = 3.451

Frequency = 24.73 MHz
Impedance = 93.96 - J 0.3803 ohms
SWR (50 ohm system) = 1.879 (75 ohm system) = 1.253

You can see the antenna slightly misses resonance on several bands, but not so far that SWR is intolerable. Either 50 or 75 ohm feedline would work, either being about equal with the other.

6  eHam Forums / Amplifiers / RE: basic question on connecting a PA on: October 13, 2012, 06:48:01 PM
Thanks much.  I believe i understand.  So the relay in the amp must be able to provide a very high degree of separation between the rx and tx to prevent receiver damage?
7  eHam Forums / Amplifiers / basic question on connecting a PA on: October 13, 2012, 09:06:52 AM
Imagine a simple station, with a 100w HF half-duplex transceiver that has a single coax connector, (which means the transceiver has an internal TX/RX relay to switch the antenna between its TX and RX sections) a tuner, and an antenna.  Now say you want to add a section of power amps to reach 1500w output.  Do you simply stick the amps in between the transceiver and the tuner?  No TX/RX relays required?  If no relay required, then it looks like the amps will also be in the station's RX path from the antenna to the transceiver.  Is this how its done?

Now apply this to a full duplex radio that has 2 connectors, but you want to operate it as a HDX radio and use a single antenna.  So obviously, you need an external TX/RX switch.  With a few stages of amplification to reach, say, 1500w or 61.76dBm.  Where does the TX/RX relay go?  If the relay's 3 connections are between the radio's rx, the final PA stage's output, and the antenna, then the relay will require an insanely high amount separation.  But is this the recommended way?  Seems a bit dangerous.  Or can the relay go between the radios TX and RX connectors and the 1st stage amp's input, leaving the TX amplification in the staions RX path?
8  eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: hanging a102ft doublet? on: October 03, 2012, 01:03:13 PM
It depends who built the chimney, and how long ago! 

I've disassembled some chimneys by hand where I could just
pick the bricks out of the mortar.

im having second thoughts on my antenna plan - glad I did this thread.  my cousin just graduated with a civileng degree, maybe he can point me to someone who can take a look at it and tell me its limits.

thanks all for the help.  maybe i will be on the air sometime this year.
9  eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: hanging a102ft doublet? on: October 03, 2012, 12:31:25 PM
Quote from: AK4YA

Very interesting.  I suppose that "5" in the "5/50" is the weight of the antenna (10) divided by the number of ends supporting it (2)?



Yes.  You can work it all out using force vectors and high school physics:  the two ropes
together support the weight of the antenna.  Each rope pulling at an angle divides into
two force components, one vertical) supporting the weight and one pulling horizontally
against the other end of the rope.  The angle of the rope sets the ratio between the two
forces.  (Pythagoras comes in handy.)  So the flatter the rope, the more horizontal force
required to provide sufficient vertical force to hold up the antenna, hence higher tension.

In practice, however, the antenna and rope have weight, so you have to solve it as a
catenary, hence using the calculators linked to previously.  But the simple analysis gives
a good understanding of what is happening.

OK, your work gives the following 2 equations:

sagdistance = (antennaweight*spanlength)/(4*counterweight)
counterweight = (antennaweight@spanlength)/(4@sagdistance)

Your example of 6ft of sag with a 50lb counterweight and a 120 ft span fits these numbers.
My chimney is actually 27ft.  Now, assuming I can make it by with 7ft of sag (which gives me a 20ft antenna at its lowest height) over 135ft span, the calculation says Ill need a 49lb weight.  Will a tree swaying with 49lbs rip a chimney off???
10  eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: hanging a102ft doublet? on: October 02, 2012, 02:33:50 PM
If you use pulleys buy a marine pulley not the kind sold at Home Depot or hardware stores.  The cheaper pulleys from general stores have lots of "slop" between the wheel and housing and are perfect candidates to pinch your rope and make retreival
futile.

Greg


so I should use pulleys at both ends?  why wouldnt just at the chimney end be sufficient.  they chimney wont sway, its the tree that will sway. Huh
11  eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: hanging a102ft doublet? on: October 02, 2012, 01:50:21 PM
Quote from: AK4YA

...Why is this important?

<SNIP>
As an example, if your antenna weights 10 pounds and you pull up 50 pounds tension on the
end ropes (ratio = 5/50 = 1/10).  If your span between supports is 120', then 1/10 * 60 = 6'
of sag in the middle.
<SNIP>

Very interesting.  I suppose that "5" in the "5/50" is the weight of the antenna (10) divided by the number of ends supporting it (2)?
12  eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: hanging a102ft doublet? on: October 02, 2012, 09:06:22 AM
<SNIP>
Sag in an antenna is usually more of an aesthetic issue:  the antenna will still
radiate at 25'.  The real question is how much the antenna + feedline weigh,
and how far it is from the antenna to the chimney.
<SNIP>


antenna/feedline is about 10lbs. distance from the tree/chimney is 130ft, since the antenna is 102ft I have a fairly decent range to pick from to go between the antenna end and the chimney.  Why is this important (not an engineering major)

Thanks!
13  eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / RE: hanging a102ft doublet? on: September 30, 2012, 12:36:19 AM
Yes it will drop to a wood fence to run to qth.  I know its impractical to wire it straight as a razor, i was just speaking in engineering terms so as so start a conversation about weight requirements.  My main concerns are do I need a center support, and how much weight on the pulley end will I need to appropriately support the weight of the antenna as straight as needed for Ham radio requirements?

I definitely don't want to put much strain on a 30 ft bricked chimney
14  eHam Forums / Antennas and Towers and more / hanging a102ft doublet? on: September 29, 2012, 10:57:25 PM
Got the MFJ model in this week.  Can I just string it between a 30ft tree and my 30ft chimney?  And drop the ladderline to the ground with no center support?  If so i plan to use a pulley on the chimney end with a weight to handle sway.  And dacron from the trees to insulators.

How much weight will be required on the pulley end?  I believe it requires infinite weight to get it 100% completely horizontal straight, but in our world, how much droop is acceptable?

Thanks everyone, hope to be on the air soon
15  eHam Forums / Elmers / RE: Im still not quite there with impedance... on: September 20, 2012, 01:06:59 PM
Quote from: W5DXP

...Here are another two points from that infinite set of impedances that cause an SWR of 3.63:1 on Z0=450 ohm feedline:

200 + j330 ohms

450 - j621 ohms


And this points out some of the things you can do when you understand how
the impedance varies along a transmission line.  If you choose a transmission
line length such that you get the first case (200 + j330 ohms) you can add a
series capacitor (-j330 ohms, or more likely split it and put -j165 ohms in each
side) and use a 4 : 1 balun to get a good match to 50 ohms. 

Or looking at the admittance, choose a value on the SWR circle where the
conductance is 0.005 S ( = 1/200 ohms) and use a capacitor or inductor in
shunt to cancel the susceptance (1/X).  This will NOT be the same length,
however, as the point where R = 200, unless the reactance is zero.


The impedance form is useful with series circuits and the admittance for
parallel circuits:  for complex networks we convert back and forth between
the two modes.  A Smith Chart makes this simple to do (especially when they
plot both scales in different colors on the same chart.)

But you don't have to understand all that yet - it's just some of the seemingly
magic matching tricks you can do once you get your head wrapped around
impedance.

Ive actually gotten far enough on http://www.fourier-series.com/rf-concepts/smithchart.html tutorials to understand what you've described.  But this all needs to happen at the antenna end of the transmission line, right?  So how does an antenna tuner do things?
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