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Author Topic: intentional intereference?  (Read 21916 times)
N1FM
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Posts: 178




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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2016, 08:30:53 PM »

Yeah, Jupiter to Lauderdale is about 60 miles of coastline. That is a lot of territory. I'll have to listen there more often and see what I can hear. The problem with 40 meter propagation is, sometimes a close station is strong, and sometimes you can't hear your neighbor 20 miles away, when the band goes long. When I wore a badge, I helped the FCC bust FM broadcast pirates, but that's line-of-sight, continuously transmitting FM, which is much, much easier than intermittent SSB on HF.
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KC1BMD
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Posts: 610




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« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2016, 11:44:05 AM »


I'm not disagreeing with you but I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

1) If you know who it is, then report it to the FCC.
2) If you don't know who it is, then you're just guessing.
3) Discussing it here won't prevent it and it might make it worse.


1) I do not. If I knew who they are or how to locate/identify them, I would report them.
2) Guessing? Yes, agreed,... but an educated guess, especially when they utter profanity and intentionally disrupt a QSO.
3) I'm not trying to prevent it here. I was only trying to gauge whether it was a relatively new problem in ham radio or not, because I don't remember it in my couple of years being a ham in the late 60's.
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N1FM
Member

Posts: 178




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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2016, 03:27:29 PM »

I've heard interference since I was licensed in the 70's. According to QST and all the reference works I've read, interference has been present since the beginning of radio. The usual advice from the FCC has been "You are self policing" and "Turn the big knob." Sometimes they issue forfeiture orders but I haven't seen any overall reduction in the amount of interference as a result. Sometimes it just gets worse.

Captain Linwood S. Howeth, USN (Retired)
History of Communications-Electronics in the United States Navy
Bureau of Ships and Office of Naval History
Chapter 10

Many amateurs intentionally interfered with the receipt of both Government and commercial messages. A chaotic situation existed. The question of Federal regulation was again brought to the front when, in 1906, President Roosevelt became a victim of the situation. Interference in the Boston area made it necessary to dispatch a torpedo boat to the drill grounds off Cape Cod, Mass., to deliver messages to him in the Mayflower . As a result of this incident, Rear Adm. Robley D. Evans, Commander in Chief, U.S. Atlantic Fleet, was verbally instructed by him, on 29 September, to prepare a memorandum regarding radiotelegraphy and recommendations as to its control.

http://www.cybertelecom.org/notes/history_wireless_earlyreg06.htm


See also:


WIRELESS  INTERFERENCE BY ROBERT  A.  MORTON
Electrician and Mechanic, April, 1909, pages 422-427

Probably no station suffers more from amateur interference than the Charlestown Navy Yard, says the Boston Transcript. When the Republic was reported in trouble off Nantucket Shoals, and the naval vessels in the vicinity of Boston were ordered to go to her relief, the interference or "butting in" of amateur stations was responsible for a delay of several hours in the reception of the official despatches. Later, when the revenue cutter Gresham was standing by the Republic, the conversation of the amateur operators prevented communication with the shore stations of the navy.

http://earlyradiohistory.us/1909ama.htm
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KC1BMD
Member

Posts: 610




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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2016, 04:18:33 PM »

Basically this boils down to, 'there have always been assholes and their always will be'.
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W2NAP
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Posts: 279




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« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2016, 07:37:16 PM »

Basically this boils down to, 'there have always been assholes and their always will be'.

yep
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I AM THE VOICE OF THE VOICELESS!
KA4DPO
Member

Posts: 810




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« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2016, 08:32:25 PM »

I've heard interference since I was licensed in the 70's. According to QST and all the reference works I've read, interference has been present since the beginning of radio. The usual advice from the FCC has been "You are self policing" and "Turn the big knob." Sometimes they issue forfeiture orders but I haven't seen any overall reduction in the amount of interference as a result. Sometimes it just gets worse.

Captain Linwood S. Howeth, USN (Retired)
History of Communications-Electronics in the United States Navy
Bureau of Ships and Office of Naval History
Chapter 10

Many amateurs intentionally interfered with the receipt of both Government and commercial messages. A chaotic situation existed. The question of Federal regulation was again brought to the front when, in 1906, President Roosevelt became a victim of the situation. Interference in the Boston area made it necessary to dispatch a torpedo boat to the drill grounds off Cape Cod, Mass., to deliver messages to him in the Mayflower . As a result of this incident, Rear Adm. Robley D. Evans, Commander in Chief, U.S. Atlantic Fleet, was verbally instructed by him, on 29 September, to prepare a memorandum regarding radiotelegraphy and recommendations as to its control.

http://www.cybertelecom.org/notes/history_wireless_earlyreg06.htm


See also:


WIRELESS  INTERFERENCE BY ROBERT  A.  MORTON
Electrician and Mechanic, April, 1909, pages 422-427

Probably no station suffers more from amateur interference than the Charlestown Navy Yard, says the Boston Transcript. When the Republic was reported in trouble off Nantucket Shoals, and the naval vessels in the vicinity of Boston were ordered to go to her relief, the interference or "butting in" of amateur stations was responsible for a delay of several hours in the reception of the official despatches. Later, when the revenue cutter Gresham was standing by the Republic, the conversation of the amateur operators prevented communication with the shore stations of the navy.

http://earlyradiohistory.us/1909ama.htm

In those days there was no regulation of radio and they did not have continuous wave transmitters, transmissions were very broad by their nature of being damped waves.  The amateurs at that time were of the mindset that WE WERE HERE FIRST and there was no law that prohibited them from doing so.   They would continue with a QSO in spite of use of the spectrum by the Navy and others so because there was no regulation it was the radio equivalent of the wild west.

To put that argument to rest, we have and have had regulations for many, many years that prohibit wilful interference, unlike our 1906 brethren.  From 1965 until the mid 1980s intentional interference began to rise.  Note the word intentional.  There has always been QRM on the bands but in days gone by it was almost always unintentional for one reason or another.  What we didn't have were groups of hams getting on a particular frequency or picking an ongoing QSO and just start tuning up, playing recordings, making all sorts of idiotic sounds and flatulence noises, and using extremely profane and offensive language.  The kinds of things that only people of limited intelligence do.  This is due in large part because in days past it took a lot more effort to get a ham license and the majority of the people I met on the air were smart people who were interested in radio and electronics.  Now any moron with an IQ of 6 and the ability to write their name can get a license and so down the road we go to channel 19.  I'm sure that someday all of this will be in the history books as well.
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N1FM
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Posts: 178




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« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2016, 09:34:23 PM »

The entire history of juvenile antics, music playing, malicious and intentional interference, fake distress calls, dirty jokes, fights, profanity, indecency, obscenity, bowel noises, racism, ethnic slurs, and any number of acts we hear every day have been heard since the beginning of radio, starting with CW, through the AM era, and right on into the SSB era. Nothing has changed, because human nature remains the same. It's all documented, and if you read the back issues of QST, you can read about it there too. True, hams may be less technically competent than they once were, but they're just as mischievous and prone to quarrels and vendetta on the air, as they have been for over a hundred years.



1906

Eventually, interference being caused by amateur antics, again especially in the northeast, began to get national attention. Regulation of Wireless, from the March 3, 1906 Electrical World, commented on the trouble being caused by local amateurs to the Navy's station at Newport, Rhode Island, and suggested that "the time has now come when in wireless telegraphy it is either regulation or chaos".


1907

A short report in the May 25, 1907 Electrical World, Wireless and Lawless, documented the inability of authorities to legally prevent an amateur from maliciously interfering with the operation of the government station at the Washington, D.C. Navy Yard. In response, a letter from Lee DeForest, Interference With Wireless Messages, published in the June 22nd issue, stated that this incident "brings up strikingly the necessity for early legal protection of legitimate workers from such vandals", declaring that "the ubiquitous amateur with his high-school Ruhmkorf coil, the operator of the 'brute force and ignorance' wireless school, must be eliminated", with the use of crude spark-transmitters replaced by more refined continuous-wave transmitters.

1908

On the West Coast, a headline in Karl H. von Wiegand's "Stop It, Kid!" Cries Congress to the American Boy, in the March 29, 1908 San Francisco Call, declared that "A drastic law must be passed because the wireless instruments of inventive youngsters are interfering with the official aerograms of the government."

1909

In its January, 1909 issue, Editorials in Electrician and Mechanic reported that the magazine would not be releasing an updated list of commercial stations, because the companies were upset about the disruption being caused by amateur stations trying to contact them. The magazine also cautioned its readers not to interfere with commercial and Navy operations, noting: "Don't get the idea that the ether is free, for Uncle Sam has police powers even over the ether, if he cares to exercise them".


"A few weeks ago, when the naval stations were anxiously awaiting news of the Republic accident from the naval vessels at the scene, the amateurs were especially active. Several times the navy operators sent out this message: "Will you fellows please stop working for a few hours. A ship out there is in distress."

Some of the amateurs did stop as requested, but a number worked their apparatus continually. When the navy objects to the interference in more forcible language, the answers run like this: "Say, you navy people think you own the ether. Who ever heard of the navy anyway? Beat it, you, beat it."

http://earlyradiohistory.us/1909ama.htm

http://earlyradiohistory.us/sec012.htm#part040


1910

The rapid expansion and even "mania" for amateur radio, with many thousands of transmitters set up by 1910, led to a wide spread problem of inadvertent and even malicious radio interference with commercial and military radio systems. Some of the problem came from amateurs using crude spark-transmitters that spread signals across a wide part of the radio spectrum.

1912

In 1912 after the RMS Titanic sank, the United States Congress passed the Radio Act of 1912 which restricted private stations to wavelengths of 200 meters or shorter (1500 kHz or higher). These "short wave" frequencies were generally considered useless at the time, and the number of radio hobbyists in the U.S. is estimated to have dropped by as much as 88%.

1913

Other countries followed suit and by 1913 the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea was convened and produced a treaty requiring shipboard radio stations to be manned 24 hours a day. The Radio Act of 1912 also marked the beginning of U.S. federal licensing of amateur radio operators and stations. The origin of the term "ham", as in "ham-handed" was a synonym for an amateur radio operator, and a taunt by professional operators.


Beginning with its June, 1913 issue, Modern Electrics printed a series of lists of the newly Licensed Amateur Stations in the various Radio Inspection Districts, while the Electrical Experimenter provided lists of monthly amateur station licence grants for the period from July, 1915 through September, 1916. In the October, 1913 Popular Mechanics, George F. Worts provided additional information on How the New Wireless Law Works.

1916

And with the passage of the new law, many of Irving Vermilya's early adventures were now illegal for amateurs, and could result in fines and criminal prosecution, as the American Radio Relay League warned its membership with notices such as Arrest Radio Operator in San Antonio, which appeared in its December, 1916 issue of QST. Which they still do today - because, as we all know, the sky is (still) falling.

1917

Another individual inadvertently got the attention of legal officials because his test transmissions were being more widely heard than he thought, which resulted in his being Arrested for his SOS, according to the February 17, 1917 New York Times.

William H. Kirwan's article in the April, 1917 Electrical Experimenter, The Washington Birthday Relay and the Q.R.M. League of America, directed a few salvos at the ARRL and QST, complaining that "A certain magazine in the East, which surely cannot have the real interests of the amateurs at heart claims that there is a danger signal up and that if you do not join its crowd, all of our licenses will be taken away."

In almost every issue of QST from its inception until today, one can read about amateurs running afoul of one regulation or another, and the FCC almost always labels these events malicious, or intentional, or egregious, or detrimental to the operation of the service.

S.S.D.D.


http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/evol.html
"Wireless Club at Columbia" The Sun. November 25, 1908. Page 2. New York, NY.
Coe, Lewis (1996). Wireless Radio: A History Technology.
DeSoto, Clinton B. 200 Meters & Down, The Story of Amateur Radio.
Ramsey Moreau,, Louise. "ARRL History Page"
http://www.w2aee.columbia.edu/arrl-hampromo.html
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KC1BMD
Member

Posts: 610




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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2016, 07:27:38 AM »

...This is due in large part because in days past it took a lot more effort to get a ham license and the majority of the people I met on the air were smart people who were interested in radio and electronics.  Now any moron with an IQ of 6 and the ability to write their name can get a license and so down the road we go to channel 19. ...
I thought about that too but then thought that people intentionally interfering don't even need a license. Anyone can purchase equipment, plug it in and get on the air with a limited amount of information all available on the internet. If they really did go through the trouble to study and get a legitimate amateur radio license, and at least at one time were respectful hams practicing our great hobby, then even more shame on them! They would be 'Hams Gone Wild'. Angry
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KC1BMD
Member

Posts: 610




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« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2016, 07:29:30 AM »

The entire history of juvenile antics,...
Thanks for the history lesson but I don't see how it relates to the type or 'frequency' of intentional interference I'm talking about.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 07:40:20 AM by KC1BMD » Logged
KA4DPO
Member

Posts: 810




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« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2016, 08:46:43 AM »

The entire history of juvenile antics, music playing, malicious and intentional interference, fake distress calls, dirty jokes, fights, profanity, indecency, obscenity, bowel noises, racism, ethnic slurs, and any number of acts we hear every day have been heard since the beginning of radio, starting with CW, through the AM era, and right on into the SSB era. Nothing has changed, because human nature remains the same. It's all documented, and if you read the back issues of QST, you can read about it there too. True, hams may be less technically competent than they once were, but they're just as mischievous and prone to quarrels and vendetta on the air, as they have been for over a hundred years.



1906

Eventually, interference being caused by amateur antics, again especially in the northeast, began to get national attention. Regulation of Wireless, from the March 3, 1906 Electrical World, commented on the trouble being caused by local amateurs to the Navy's station at Newport, Rhode Island, and suggested that "the time has now come when in wireless telegraphy it is either regulation or chaos".


1907

A short report in the May 25, 1907 Electrical World, Wireless and Lawless, documented the inability of authorities to legally prevent an amateur from maliciously interfering with the operation of the government station at the Washington, D.C. Navy Yard. In response, a letter from Lee DeForest, Interference With Wireless Messages, published in the June 22nd issue, stated that this incident "brings up strikingly the necessity for early legal protection of legitimate workers from such vandals", declaring that "the ubiquitous amateur with his high-school Ruhmkorf coil, the operator of the 'brute force and ignorance' wireless school, must be eliminated", with the use of crude spark-transmitters replaced by more refined continuous-wave transmitters.

1908

On the West Coast, a headline in Karl H. von Wiegand's "Stop It, Kid!" Cries Congress to the American Boy, in the March 29, 1908 San Francisco Call, declared that "A drastic law must be passed because the wireless instruments of inventive youngsters are interfering with the official aerograms of the government."

1909

In its January, 1909 issue, Editorials in Electrician and Mechanic reported that the magazine would not be releasing an updated list of commercial stations, because the companies were upset about the disruption being caused by amateur stations trying to contact them. The magazine also cautioned its readers not to interfere with commercial and Navy operations, noting: "Don't get the idea that the ether is free, for Uncle Sam has police powers even over the ether, if he cares to exercise them".


"A few weeks ago, when the naval stations were anxiously awaiting news of the Republic accident from the naval vessels at the scene, the amateurs were especially active. Several times the navy operators sent out this message: "Will you fellows please stop working for a few hours. A ship out there is in distress."

Some of the amateurs did stop as requested, but a number worked their apparatus continually. When the navy objects to the interference in more forcible language, the answers run like this: "Say, you navy people think you own the ether. Who ever heard of the navy anyway? Beat it, you, beat it."

http://earlyradiohistory.us/1909ama.htm

http://earlyradiohistory.us/sec012.htm#part040


1910

The rapid expansion and even "mania" for amateur radio, with many thousands of transmitters set up by 1910, led to a wide spread problem of inadvertent and even malicious radio interference with commercial and military radio systems. Some of the problem came from amateurs using crude spark-transmitters that spread signals across a wide part of the radio spectrum.

1912

In 1912 after the RMS Titanic sank, the United States Congress passed the Radio Act of 1912 which restricted private stations to wavelengths of 200 meters or shorter (1500 kHz or higher). These "short wave" frequencies were generally considered useless at the time, and the number of radio hobbyists in the U.S. is estimated to have dropped by as much as 88%.

1913

Other countries followed suit and by 1913 the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea was convened and produced a treaty requiring shipboard radio stations to be manned 24 hours a day. The Radio Act of 1912 also marked the beginning of U.S. federal licensing of amateur radio operators and stations. The origin of the term "ham", as in "ham-handed" was a synonym for an amateur radio operator, and a taunt by professional operators.


Beginning with its June, 1913 issue, Modern Electrics printed a series of lists of the newly Licensed Amateur Stations in the various Radio Inspection Districts, while the Electrical Experimenter provided lists of monthly amateur station licence grants for the period from July, 1915 through September, 1916. In the October, 1913 Popular Mechanics, George F. Worts provided additional information on How the New Wireless Law Works.

1916

And with the passage of the new law, many of Irving Vermilya's early adventures were now illegal for amateurs, and could result in fines and criminal prosecution, as the American Radio Relay League warned its membership with notices such as Arrest Radio Operator in San Antonio, which appeared in its December, 1916 issue of QST. Which they still do today - because, as we all know, the sky is (still) falling.

1917

Another individual inadvertently got the attention of legal officials because his test transmissions were being more widely heard than he thought, which resulted in his being Arrested for his SOS, according to the February 17, 1917 New York Times.

William H. Kirwan's article in the April, 1917 Electrical Experimenter, The Washington Birthday Relay and the Q.R.M. League of America, directed a few salvos at the ARRL and QST, complaining that "A certain magazine in the East, which surely cannot have the real interests of the amateurs at heart claims that there is a danger signal up and that if you do not join its crowd, all of our licenses will be taken away."

In almost every issue of QST from its inception until today, one can read about amateurs running afoul of one regulation or another, and the FCC almost always labels these events malicious, or intentional, or egregious, or detrimental to the operation of the service.

S.S.D.D.


http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/evol.html
"Wireless Club at Columbia" The Sun. November 25, 1908. Page 2. New York, NY.
Coe, Lewis (1996). Wireless Radio: A History Technology.
DeSoto, Clinton B. 200 Meters & Down, The Story of Amateur Radio.
Ramsey Moreau,, Louise. "ARRL History Page"
http://www.w2aee.columbia.edu/arrl-hampromo.html

Don't forget that people talked very different back then, the word antics had a different meaning just as the word gay had a different meaning.  Also, people were far more disciplined and law abiding than they are today so even a few transgressions whether they were intentional or just poor operating practice would have been seen as unacceptable.

I wasn't around that long ago so I really can't speak to that era from experience.  I have been a ham since the mid 1960's and I can tell you my personal experience is that between 1965 and 1985 the incidence of bad behavior on the air was very rare indeed.  Not saying there wasn't an occasional food fight between a couple of hams but nothing even remotely close to what we are seeing today.  The amateur service is heading in the same direction that CB radio went in the 70's because they have made it too easy to become licensed.  For years people jumped up and down and screamed that wasn't true but the proof is here and no one who has been in the hobby for any length of time can deny it.  I used to be proud to be a ham because I had to work hard to become one.  Too many new hams just don't care, their attitude is so what, I didn't have to do anything to get it anyway.

You said in another post that discussing it here might make it worse.  My response to that is why?  What is going to make it worse is one of two things that will happen,  The FCC will shut down amateur operations in the United States saying that it is no longer relevant or, they will restrict hams to one segment of spectrum and remove all requirements and we all know what that will turn into.   I'm just not in that much of a hurry to see idiocracy become a reality, not yet anyway.
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N1FM
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Posts: 178




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« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2016, 12:14:42 PM »


@KC1BMD: "Thanks for the history lesson but I don't see how it relates to the type or 'frequency' of intentional interference I'm talking about."

Answer: The point is, it's always been this way. You have 2 options. Make a complaint to the FCC or turn the big knob.

@KA4DPO: "You said in another post that discussing it here might make it worse.  My response to that is why? "

Answer: Because they read these forums and they get off on the attention, leading them to to do it more, for greater notoriety.
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KC1BMD
Member

Posts: 610




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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2016, 01:06:18 PM »

Answer: The point is, it's always been this way. You have 2 options. Make a complaint to the FCC or turn the big knob.
I do not believe it has always been this way and your history lesson doesn't prove it, in my opinion. Many of the examples cited do not sound like intentional disruption/interference. Nevertheless, it's not like I tuned to a station and happened to hear the crap I am describing. In that case, of course, I could turn the knob. When I'm having a QSO and some turd starts intentionally interfering, that's a different situation entirely. Sure the QSO can change frequency but they'll likely just be followed. Stop discussing it because that might make it worse? That's a joke, right? Cave in to these low life's? I think not.
Can I do anything about it? Probably not. Do I wish that lightning would strike and vaporize them and their equipment? Heck yeah!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 01:51:33 PM by KC1BMD » Logged
WA2ISE
Member

Posts: 1057




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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2016, 01:17:36 PM »

...  From 1965 until the mid 1980s intentional interference began to rise.  Note the word intentional.  ...

Isn't that when "incentive licensing" kicked in?  We could blame that...   Grin
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KA4DPO
Member

Posts: 810




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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2016, 08:33:50 PM »

...  From 1965 until the mid 1980s intentional interference began to rise.  Note the word intentional.  ...

Isn't that when "incentive licensing" kicked in?  We could blame that...   Grin

This is what I stated in post#39.
Quote
I wasn't around that long ago so I really can't speak to that era from experience.  I have been a ham since the mid 1960's and I can tell you my personal experience is that between 1965 and 1985 the incidence of bad behavior on the air was very rare indeed.

My intention in the preceding post was to say the intentional interference was rare between 1965 and 1985.  There was a big jump in LID behavior around 1985 and after.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 08:37:48 PM by KA4DPO » Logged
KC1BMD
Member

Posts: 610




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« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2016, 03:47:35 AM »

My intention in the preceding post was to say the intentional interference was rare between 1965 and 1985.  There was a big jump in LID behavior around 1985 and after.
Probably explains why I didn't notice it during my early Novice/General ham days ~1968-70.
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