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Author Topic: Internet privacy  (Read 20773 times)
WA2ISE
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« on: April 04, 2017, 03:37:32 PM »

Maybe someone could create an app of some sort to do a lot of random web surfing for you (while you're not using your PC), idea being that the resulting history would end up being worthless for your ISP to try to sell.   Huh
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W8JX
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2017, 03:49:52 PM »

Maybe someone could create an app of some sort to do a lot of random web surfing for you (while you're not using your PC), idea being that the resulting history would end up being worthless for your ISP to try to sell.   Huh

ONLY way around it is via a VPN (Virtual Private Network which uses its own servers too) which encrypts all data before it gets to your ISP. There is no magic app for this.  Funny thing is most that worry about this are Facebook members and Facebook is kinda the king of snoopers because their business model is based off of sell what they learn about you and what you like. If you want privacy quit Facebook and other social media groups and get a VPN. Businesses have been using VPN's for many years for off site/at home workers.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
AA4PB
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2017, 04:19:22 PM »

Two problems with a VPN. It requires that both ends use the VPN so it won't work for general web surfing. Second, the IP addresses are not encrypted so the ISP can still see what IP addresses are connected and possibly figure out who the owners of those addresses are.
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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA
W8JX
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2017, 04:39:57 PM »

Two problems with a VPN. It requires that both ends use the VPN so it won't work for general web surfing. Second, the IP addresses are not encrypted so the ISP can still see what IP addresses are connected and possibly figure out who the owners of those addresses are.

When you establish a VPN "tunnel" ALL traffic is hidden from ISP, everything. (that how a VPN works) Also you can surf Web via a VPN server and Web does not know who you are thru a anonymous VPN server as trail ends at server. Current Whitehorse believes that you should have all your data available to highest bidder as long as it is not them directly.  VPN sales have skyrocketed since bill was passed.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
AC7CW
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2017, 06:46:32 PM »

There are apps and plugins that auto click on every ad to throw off the trackers.

I spoke with my VPN provider a few days ago. they told me that if I selected IKEv2 protocol my ISP could not spy on me. They also told me that they don't provide that protocol in their Android app, only the Windows one.

Open DNS provides a windows setup that accomplishes encryption of the last mile, still not sure if that hides DNS lookups from my ISP or what. Essentially I don't trust any of these providers of anything at all to come clean and really tell me how to attain privacy, it's not the way business is done in the USA, they all lie to make the $
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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)
AA4PB
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2017, 05:55:30 AM »

When you establish a VPN "tunnel" ALL traffic is hidden from ISP, everything.

The end-point IP addresses are NOT encrypted. If they were then the ISP would have no way to know how to route the traffic. Its true that the ISP can't read the content of the packets, but they can still identify the end-points (i.e. the IP addresses assigned to both ends of the link). It's usually not to difficult to determine who owns those IP addresses.

I worked with VPNs in my day job for a number of years.

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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA
W8JX
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2017, 06:05:33 AM »

When you establish a VPN "tunnel" ALL traffic is hidden from ISP, everything.

The end-point IP addresses are NOT encrypted. If they were then the ISP would have no way to know how to route the traffic. Its true that the ISP can't read the content of the packets, but they can still identify the end-points (i.e. the IP addresses assigned to both ends of the link). It's usually not to difficult to determine who owns those IP addresses.

I worked with VPNs in my day job for a number of years.

The only end point ISP has is VPN server it is routing pipe to and that is it.  ISP sees none of Web address requested via VPN server or pipe traffic. If it was as you suggested a VPN would be kinda worthless.  

You may of worked with it some but it was limited to likely point to point and not point to remote VPN server which is a different animal and you do not understand the bigger picture. 
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KE4OH
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2017, 06:25:06 AM »

One "word": TOR
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73 de Steve KE4OH
AA4PB
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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2017, 06:33:19 AM »

Well, in the original post you didn't say anything about using a "vpn server". You then said that everything including IP addresses are encrypted. You are wrong in that believe. Your ISP can determine the IP addresses of both ends of your VPN tunnel. In the case of a VPN server they can know your IP address and the IP address of the VPN server (those are the two ends of the VPN tunnel). They can't determine the IP address of the web site that the vpn server connects to on your behalf by inspecting your packets.

I've configured and operated my own VPN servers, but you've got to understand their limitations in protecting your identity.
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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA
W8JX
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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2017, 07:23:24 AM »

Well, in the original post you didn't say anything about using a "vpn server". You then said that everything including IP addresses are encrypted. You are wrong in that believe. Your ISP can determine the IP addresses of both ends of your VPN tunnel. In the case of a VPN server they can know your IP address and the IP address of the VPN server (those are the two ends of the VPN tunnel). They can't determine the IP address of the web site that the vpn server connects to on your behalf by inspecting your packets.

I've configured and operated my own VPN servers, but you've got to understand their limitations in protecting your identity.


I stated VPN servers on first post. And exactly what is big deal about ISP knowing what VPN server you are routed to? They do not have a clue where that server is taking you dah.

I guess your experience is a bit limited. A anonymous VPN (and there is a lot out there) does not track where you go and your ISP does not have a clue where you are going either past server.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
W9IQ
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2017, 08:22:13 AM »

Take care with hosted VPN servers. Many governments and nepharious organizations/individuals enjoy the blissfully blind trust users place in their services.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
KX4OM
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Posts: 242




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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2017, 04:49:32 PM »

Maybe someone could create an app of some sort to do a lot of random web surfing for you (while you're not using your PC), idea being that the resulting history would end up being worthless for your ISP to try to sell.   Huh
I use TrackMeNot when I do searches with Google (normally, I use DuckDuckGo for search my search engine). The add-on application obfuscates your search word or phrase in a cloud of phrases that it picks up from the web. Even when not using it, it's fun to mouse over it on the browser bar to see what it is prepared to send out.

One of the folks behind the application is Helen Nissbaum, who is co-author of the book, "Obfuscation: A User's Guide for Privacy and Protest." I have that book on my Kindle.

http://www.cs.nyu.edu/trackmenot/

Ted, KX4OM
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 05:00:18 PM by KX4OM » Logged
KA0SBL
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Posts: 62




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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2017, 05:19:40 PM »

Maybe someone could create an app of some sort to do a lot of random web surfing for you (while you're not using your PC), idea being that the resulting history would end up being worthless for your ISP to try to sell.   Huh


Here's an article about ISP data pollution:

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/after-vote-to-kill-privacy-rules-users-try-to-pollute-their-web-history/


Some ISP's are pledging not to sell their customer's Internet activity. An article about that and ways to attempt to protect yourself:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/04/heres-how-protect-your-privacy-your-internet-service-provider


-K
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W8JX
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2017, 07:08:29 AM »

Well there was a law set to take effect soon that would of provided more privacy to Internet users but it was killed by current Administration because it was less profitable for big corporations when they could not legally sell you data without your consent. The needs of the few (for more money) out weight the needs of the many (for more privacy)
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
KA4LFP
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2017, 11:51:59 AM »

"A anonymous VPN (and there is a lot out there) does not track where you go and your ISP does not have a clue where you are going either past server."


This is essentially true, from your ISP's point of view - they cannot track who/where you are.

However, the real source of collected data is the interaction with corporate websites like Amazon, Ebay, Facebook, CNN, and most others.
Those sites all have scripting running that allows them to track you, even if you've disabled scripts..

That  sort of traffic collection will happen even over a VPN, and if you have a tab open in the browser to your email, and other tabs open to Amazon, or even uncleared cached data because you didn't close the browser, all that data will _still_ get collected and sent to Amazon.

That's true from TOR browser as well -- I've used a packet capture tool (an enterprise Wireshark on steroids tool)
and verified that the TOR browser was allowing local temporary cached data to be collected and sent out, from tab to tab to webservers on the far end of each tabbed session.
(For the technically minded, I was doing this against my own webserver with it's own SSL certificate that my packet capture tool had loaded in to decode the SSL packets. There are also other gray-hat means of doing SSL traffic capture/redirection directly on a workstation at the Presentation/Session layer of the OSI model "above" the SSL layer....this is what much of the keybot spyware out there does, often with your agreement when you agree to terms and conditions and click a button on a page. )

Once you stop and restart the browser between, for example, being in your email and going to a commerce website, then TOR doesn't have  your email cached any more.

A lot of people misunderstand how those 'private browsing' things like TOR and Cocoon and others work -- it's that they don't save data AFTER you shut down the browser, not that they instantly forget and never save anything, even a keystroke later.

But if you leave the browser UP and running, and click over from website to website to webmail to webmail --- all of that data is cross-contaminated between tabs/sessions and many times, it IS sent over the wire to the session on the far end.


So - my point is this:
 
- You have far more to be concerned with a far-end webserver that you're connected to than you do your ISP themselves. The far-end webserver (Amazon/Gmail/Hotmail/Yahoo/CNN/Fox/Breitbart/) is collecting the VAST majority of that locally temp-cached data out of your browser session.
Even if you _are_ running a VPN to some one of the VPN providers, your IP address from your ISP is practically useless to them for tracking who you are, where you are.
Your browser (even TOR) is telling them far more just because of what YOU are doing.

- A VPN to a provider of such services - how do you know THEY aren't simply collecting and selling your data.
Heck, there's a wide variety of those that are operated BY the Judicial Branch and the RIAA and others as 'honeypots' to collect up traffic from people who are looking to hide away somewhere. And no, nothing you could read on their website or get in a contract with them would _ever_ let you know that you've in fact purchased services from a honeypot and now ALL your traffic is being forwarded to someplace you're not being told about.

I had a friend not long ago who'd gotten one of those "hide me away" VPN connections from a company. I proved to him very shortly (using Echolink actually) that his VPN was in fact terminating in RUSSIA, and that it was likely that they could fully access his computer!

VPNs _do_ by definition bypass the local firewall in your computer.... whoever is on the other end of that VPN can usually fully access your computer.
Any VPN provider who has to tell you to turn off your AV software or your Windows firewall (which several companies do) --- that's a major red flag!

« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 11:56:32 AM by KA4LFP » Logged
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