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Author Topic: What's "en en"?  (Read 3690 times)
PA0WV
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Posts: 388




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« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2017, 06:37:37 AM »

I would agree that sending bad CW is a long standing Amateur tradition.  That is why the Q signal  of QLF (try sending with your left foot) was invented over 100 years ago.

When you learn reading when you are 5 or 6 years old, you are happy when you can read a printed text, with that strange character g printed out. Kind of disabled ant. Not the way you learned writing it  anyway.
When you had your birthday and got a present in the mail together with a letter of aunt Abigail, it was even worse. Aunt had a kind of writing characters which you did not learn at school, Aunt had a fist.

So advanced learning of Morse code is decoding fists. Start learning instead of complaining, because you communicate with people not with machines.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 06:41:35 AM by PA0WV » Logged

K8AXW
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« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2017, 08:28:07 AM »

Quote
So advanced learning of Morse code is decoding fists. Start learning instead of complaining, because you communicate with people not with machines.

Well said!!  Strange as some may find it, it's actually more fun communicating with a "fist" rather than a machine.  But, it must also be understood that some fists cannot be copied...and in that case the machine is better. 

These people need to be able to send better......
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N4IAG
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« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2017, 08:33:07 AM »

....or is it just bad sent r r?

Yes, that is called "a fist".

We have to honour use of fists, bananaboat swings, falling of a rock swings and drunk too much C2H5(OH) swings,  and starting bug users sending dididididit  dah because the meaning of the code is determined in a higher layer of in your brains, not as 5 T but as V.

And it discourages all kind of people that are not able to communicate in Morse code, and like to simulate it as if they were able fo do that, by using decoders.

Nothing wrong with a distinctive fist, but deliberately sending 'bad' code simply because the possibility of a 'code reader' being used, seems silly and paranoid.

Like a persons speech, my ability to understand them depends on how clearly they enunciate. And my ability to copy code is directly related to how well that it is being sent. Trying to copy some fists is like listening to a drunk Irishman - good luck with that.  Cheesy

I try to send the best code possible, not that I can, but that is my goal. Justifying ones mistimed fist because it confuses code readers seems more like an excuse for their own shortcomings, than a reason.
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I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like his passengers.
K8AXW
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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2017, 08:58:16 PM »

Quote
I try to send the best code possible, not that I can, but that is my goal. Justifying ones mistimed fist because it confuses code readers seems more like an excuse for their own shortcomings, than a reason.

It's inexcusable to deliberately send poor code.  Most don't deliberately speak poorly on purpose.

To understand in either case is one characteristic of Americans.  Try speaking poor German to a German and all you'll get is a blank look!  (Been there, done that, a thousand times!)

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AC2EU
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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2017, 06:57:26 AM »

Funny, but somehow I "knew" that "EN  EN" was some kind of bastardized  "RR" the first time I heard it , probably due to the context.
It's like a CW speech impediment or something.
There are so many "stylized OPs" out there that my brain has become desensitized to the incoherent Morse and automatically tries to make some contextual sense of it all.

I am relatively new to CW , but I wish that CW ops would try to send legitimate Morse.
It makes it ten times harder to copy when you're  a newbie. I can barely copy REAL Morse at 20 wpm at this time.

Unfortunately, this "slop" is a source of pride and distinction for some.
If someone walked up to me in the street and started talking with staccato and slurred speech, I would wonder what was wrong with him.
I often wonder the same of the "slop ops".


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K0UA
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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2017, 07:15:25 AM »

Funny, but somehow I "knew" that "EN  EN" was some kind of bastardized  "RR" the first time I heard it , probably due to the context.
It's like a CW speech impediment or something.
There are so many "stylized OPs" out there that my brain has become desensitized to the incoherent Morse and automatically tries to make some contextual sense of it all.

I am relatively new to CW , but I wish that CW ops would try to send legitimate Morse.
It makes it ten times harder to copy when you're  a newbie. I can barely copy REAL Morse at 20 wpm at this time.

Unfortunately, this "slop" is a source of pride and distinction for some.
If someone walked up to me in the street and started talking with staccato and slurred speech, I would wonder what was wrong with him.
I often wonder the same of the "slop ops".




I agree 100%.  It really frost's my nuts when some on here brag about their sloppy CW, and how it is their "style" or they are "making their music" or what ever excuse they give for sending sloppy CW.  They then go on to tell us that struggle with trying to copy their "shirt" that we need to try harder and improve our "shirt" filter.  Some will tell you that they can send perfect CW when requested to do so.  If that is a fact, why not send perfect CW all the time.  Or just send your crap without pressing the break in key, and just send it to yourself with your sidetone monitor?  That way when you decide to put the transmitter on the air you can send that clean CW that you claim you can do on demand!

Well we are never going to solve this difference in opinion on a forum.   dahdidahdit  dit dahdiddah forever!
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VK5EEE
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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2017, 08:29:01 AM »

What can I say :-) this will never be resolved. But some cultures have WAYYYYYY more "live and let live" than other cultures. The Anglo-Saxon and Western offshoots, which dominate this forum, have a HIGHER percentage of "my idea is right" than other parts of the world, where there is greater respect for differences, and far less worry about who is right -- "we're all right", Iree, cool na man, 6Y5.

There are those of us who love to enjoy CW in it's full range of abilities... just like I enjoy Jamaican slang and some other variations of English, and other non-English languages I can speak. To me, French CW sounds nicer than English CW, just as the French language sounds better, but that's purely personal. It's all about communication, between two or more stations, no matter the language.
What matters surely is that when people are having a QSO together, they can understand each other and enjoy that QSO.

Thus, if I don't know you, and you respond to my CQ slowly, or with a paddle, I'm not going to give you an accent in reply.
But if I choose to call CQ with a heavy accent, as I sometimes do, and you don't like it, what's the problem, just tune away.
I don't see why this needs to be something to argue about...

Unlike the majority for sure, I almost NEVER every come across CW I can't decipher, and if I do, then even though it may be poor spelling + spacing + incorrect characters i.e. sloppy and/or defective CW, I STILL don't blame the sender, I blame myself as I pride myself on copying, and enjoying all CW. It's a challenge to make sense of it. If the CW is sent mechanically, there is more freedom with spacing. If on a keyer though, there isn't, e.g. some people send C instead of KE or TR -- and you cannot tell which except by checking context, for me, that's the least fun -- so I dislike poor sending on a keyer and like perfect sending on a keyer, but on a bug, cootie, or straight key, I say bring on the fist, show you are unique, and can turn that trance music of the keyer into Reggae, Soul, Rap and Kwaito.... Jazz though is hard to copy, for that type of CW, I found by trying less and letting it flow over my head, it falls into place.

I actually fall asleep listening to CW especially if it is perfect, it's hypnotizing after hours of it. Sending on a keyer, I also fall asleep sometimes late in the evening in the middle of a CQ... I don't stop sending during those micro naps but I awake with a startle, still sending, and HOPING I did not send something I should not have. I need to start recording those times, to see what I actually sent! Am I the only one who falls asleep and awakes still sending?

For 8 hours non-stop sending and receiving of QTC, the bug or cootie at higher speeds, is easier, than a keyer -- because the deliberate and unique variations of letters, e.g. D's and L's sent with longer dah, etc, all contribute less fatigue and greater recognition. "Closed networks" e.g. police operators of a particular police force, all made great use of those styles, which outsiders would call "poor" CW but in actual fact was the most efficient and effective way of sending and receiving huge amounts of messages all day long. But again, this is not something that many will accept, and they are simply WRONG. But let's just SMILE when they tell us that we're wrong, that knowing smile of the connoisseur who hopes that the apprentice may one day appreciate the fine taste of the wine?

No, I'm not an "elitist" in attitude: I even send some CQ at 5WPM in the hope some who have not ventured on the key since passing their test 20 years ago, may do so. I enjoy all types of keys, and most types of styles, always willing to make those less skilled at it feel at ease and enjoy the QSO. Everyone was a beginner once, most CW Ops are patient!

dit-dahhhh-di-dah-dit
dit dit dit dahdit dah
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
AC2EU
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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2017, 11:01:52 AM »

from EEE
"But if I choose to call CQ with a heavy accent, as I sometimes do, and you don't like it, what's the problem, just tune away.
I don't see why this needs to be something to argue about..."

No argument, and as you say, I DO tune away if it the fist sounds too bizarre.
I probably won't be able to copy a good amount of the QSO, so it would be an exercise in futility for me.

CW is supposed to be about communicating. By sending non standard stylized, or bad bug timing, it limits the field of possible respondents.
I just fail to understand why someone would CHOOSE to do this.

Heck, even SLANG is sort of standardized( even I know some Patwah), whereas these CW swings and styles are completely individualized.
If you have been doing this stuff in your sleep, Im sure you can copy just about anything they throw at you. No so much for us new guys...

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VK5EEE
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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2017, 05:46:06 AM »

AC2EU,

Good question: "I just fail to understand why someone would CHOOSE to do this."

Actually, no matter WHAT type of CW you send, there are people who won't reply to it and tune till they hear to their liking.

For example: if I send too fast or too slow, or even average speed, those looking for higher or lower speed may tune past.
If I send perfect CW on a keyer, some will think it may be someone with a decoder, or, they don't like keyer CW, and tune past. I agree that bug with a swing, or QRQ on a keyer or keyboard, or very QRS on a straight key, get a lower percentage of interest. But, to try to get around that, I vary my speed from one CQ call to another, and even rotate keys. Not always but often.

Why someone would then choose to use a particular style or method, comes down to what they FEEL like using, or enjoy. For example, sometimes I really feel like a QRQ QSK QSO. Another day and time I may feel like some bug CW. Some days I do have a preference over one type or speed over another. Some days, I want to ENJOY sending and having a QSO in a particular mode. So, I send with that mode, and hope that someone else who likes that mode of CW will have a QSO.

For me the best QSO partner that I can "rag chew" with is someone who can copy pretty much all types and speeds, like I can. That way, when we chat (and sometimes we've had 6 hour long QSO talking about everything under the sun) I can choose a speed (or vary it over many hours long QSO) and choose the key type that fits my mood of that day or hour. Sometimes I enjoy simulating computer-sent perfect CW with my paddle. Other times, I like sending "sloppy" or imperfect CW on my straight key, just like was done by so many professional ship Sparks. Other times I like emulating a bug, or keyer, or even cooties, using my straight key! Other times, I enjoy send "cootie" CW on my cootie, other times I like to emulate "perfect" CW on my cootie. On the bug, I like sometimes to send with faster dits and longer dahs on average.

So I'm one of those who have so many different styles that I like, as well as different keying methods. When I call CQ, sometimes I'm aiming for the MAJORITY here in VK where most CW Ops are slower (by using a straight key at 18WPM, or a paddle at 20 WPM or so), other times I'm aiming at a minority (though fortunately by now our very limited number of regular CW Ops here can pick out my callsign pretty much whichever way I send it, and they KNOW that I will come back in a way that they can copy comfortably, depending on who they are), and sometimes I've given up hoping for a reply and am just entertaining myself with nothing better to do, sending CQ, or NNGT, or F(AA), etc, or even C QC QC QDEV K5EEEV K5EEEV K5EEEK etc making various rhythms. VK is a lonely place for CW a lot of the time, and I've currently only a temp 80m ANT! If I have to call CQ for a half hour or more, then sometimes I like to make it more entertaining for myself!

When I'm back on the DX bands, hopefully soon as I can get antennas back up, then of course there will be less odd types of CQ and styles, because I'll be less bored, and have a much better chance of getting a reply, and also, more chance of looking like a LID by some extreme CQ which more people are going to hear than me on 80m on my short 4.5m elevated Ground Plane. Where my signal goes further, and the potential audience is bigger, I tend more to the average! But then I can have fun alternating CQ between Russian CQ (BCEM or in CW that is in our letter WSEM), and in letting JA stations that I'd like to practice a little Wabun CW, by using <DO><DO><SN><SN> CQ CQ ... though that's a little unwise as my JA vocabulary is so limited that it is best left for the FINAL over so they don't come back to me with loads of QRQ JA CW!

Hope that explains it. I would guess that for others sending non-standard CW even in a CQ will generally be a) that's the way they ALWAYS send or b) that's the way they LIKE to send, but there could be some others out there who, like me, easily get bored using only one type of CW and like to play various tunes. It's probably just me, but I love all types of CW, except the one with a keyer where certain letters are joined completely together: <ON> <KE>/<TR> <MA> etc, some pairs of letters really do not ever belong joined (when using perfect keyer), others are less ambiguous <YE> <AF> (I at least don't assume <RR> or <LN> if hearing that), but generally it's the only type of "sloppy" CW I *don't* like, and wish those folks would speed up their sending and leave proper spaces, as sometimes I think they do it because they are sending slower than their ability and are trying to send faster without raising the speed.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
K8PRG
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2017, 03:57:55 AM »

I worked someone just last night who's r r sounded more like en en. I picked up[ on it right away. Those were his only "personalized" characters and otherwise very easy to copy.
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WA8UEG
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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2017, 12:28:50 PM »

 What's E N? It's just a Bad Sending Habit pure es simple.

Not at all,

It is an emphasis of :"I received everything perfectly correct"

Just like you have the opportunity in plain spoken language  to emphasize thoughts by prolonging soundparts of a word. you have that in Morse code too by suddenly changing the speed. Nothing wrong about that.

OK decoders can't handle it and react with ETT TE EET but guys that are curious to know what real radio amateurs are doing and communicating, ought to learn Morse code to find out instead of buying with easy money some decoder.  And worse: try to make a QSO with the help of beacon stations for the call and macro's

gd luck


100% correct and it's been SOP for the 50+ years I have been operating CW.
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KE6EE
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2017, 09:07:04 PM »

I hate to have to break it to you fellows.

E N E N is Pirate Code. It means Arrh Arrh.

Matey.
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K0UA
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2017, 09:37:50 PM »

I hate to have to break it to you fellows.

E N E N is Pirate Code. It means Arrh Arrh.

Matey.

Aye, but the "code" is more like guidelines, not actual "rules".   Arrg... Smiley Smiley
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