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Author Topic: Let your child operate CW on air without a license  (Read 4569 times)
VK5EEE
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Posts: 939




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« on: August 10, 2017, 01:54:06 AM »

I'm wondering if those with children are forgetting that they can use your key and have fun on the radio, a great way for them to be excited in learning CW. Naturally it will help if they know some CW to start with, but you can also hold their hand. The only thing you need to do is supervise and operate the VFO and ensure the transmission is legal, e.g. ID every 10 minutes at least. But in between that they can use your TX. So I'm wondering if folks with kids with them have considered this and given it a try.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever
ON5MF
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2017, 05:14:47 AM »

Sorry but this would be completely illegal in my country!
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Mostly (low power) rtty contesting using OQ6A, sometimes dxing using ON5MF
in november '14,'15,'16,'17 and '18 also OP5MF, special prefix in commemoration of 100 years WW 1

www.on5mf.be
OZ8AGB
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2017, 05:19:54 AM »

Perfectly legal in my country as long as a licensed is monitoring.
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VK5EEE
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2017, 05:54:12 AM »

I would be surprised it is not legal in Belge, I think all Europe would now be the same. Maybe worth checking again license conditions as they do keep changing and they no longer supply hard copy of the conditions with licenses? Certainly legal in G, OZ, K, VK, and I would think all of EU. But as I suspect, I do not think most hams are aware of this, and we may be missing opportunities to promote CW and amateur radio even in our own homes.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever
ON5MF
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2017, 06:55:37 AM »

Nope, illegal in Belgium... nobody can transmit (on ham frequencies) without a licence.

There are some exceptions but they all have to be approved by the Belgian Institute for Postal services and Telecommunications before transmitting.

Europe is Europe but the law in the different countries is not the same and probably never will. Don't forget Belgium is a country with about half a dozen governments  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

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Mostly (low power) rtty contesting using OQ6A, sometimes dxing using ON5MF
in november '14,'15,'16,'17 and '18 also OP5MF, special prefix in commemoration of 100 years WW 1

www.on5mf.be
M0LEP
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Posts: 479




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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2017, 06:59:19 AM »

Technically, in the UK the only time an unlicenced person can actually control the operation of a rig to transmit is when they are a student on a recognised Foundation course, and being supervised by a Full licence holder.

A Full licence holder may also permit an unlicenced person to send a message, but only if the radio equipment is operated by the licence holder. That's usually taken to mean the licence holder has control of the transmit button. When my rig's in CW mode, the action of closing the key's contact puts the rig into transmit, so I'd have a hard time arguing that I was operating it if someone else's hand was on the key.
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OZ8AGB
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2017, 07:03:06 AM »

Lou, it is not the United States of Europe - yet.  Wink
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VK5EEE
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2017, 07:53:15 AM »

Good to know about Europe! I've been away a long time. Yes, so perhaps it is NOT legal for someone to key a CW TX under your supervision, only speak into a microphone?

Can anyone untangle this legalese...? I think b) and/or c) may actually allow the on-off keying (iCW) of a TX under supervision:

(1A)   In this Determination, unless the contrary intention appears, operate, in relation to a station, means take an action to control the operation of the station or of a transmitter that is part of the station, other than:

                (a)    in relation to an amateur standard station or an amateur advanced station — an action taken by a person who is not a qualified operator or a qualified person, that is done in the presence of and under the supervision of a qualified operator or qualified person, to activate by switch or voice a microphone connected to a transmitter, when the operation of the transmitter:

                          (i)    is limited to causing the transmitter to transmit or to cease to transmit; and

                         (ii)    is otherwise controlled by the qualified operator or qualified person; or

               (b)    in relation to an amateur standard station or an amateur advanced station — an action taken by a person who is not a qualified operator or a qualified person, that is done in the presence of and under the supervision of a qualified operator or qualified person, to control the operation of a transmitter while being trained or examined for the purpose of becoming a qualified operator; or

                (c)    in relation to an amateur standard station or an amateur advanced station — an action taken by a person who is not a qualified operator or a qualified person, to activate by switch or voice a microphone connected to a transmitter through a public telecommunications network if:

                          (i)    the action is limited to causing the transmitter to transmit or to cease to transmit; and

                         (ii)    the operation of the transmitter is otherwise controlled by a qualified operator or qualified person present at the transmitter;

That's from the VK LIS
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever
W3TTT
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Posts: 236




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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2017, 09:20:54 AM »

I'm wondering if those with children are forgetting that they can use your key and have fun on the radio, a great way for them to be excited in learning CW. Naturally it will help if they know some CW to start with, but you can also hold their hand. The only thing you need to do is supervise and operate the VFO and ensure the transmission is legal, e.g. ID every 10 minutes at least. But in between that they can use your TX. So I'm wondering if folks with kids with them have considered this and given it a try.

I have tried this with my kids (ages 8-10) and grandkids (ages 8-10).  Can you say "dummy load" children?  No need to worry what they "send".  I crank the power down to the minimum, and connect the dummy load.  Great fun.  For about 10 minutes. 

 Cheesy

73, Joe
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KC4ZGP
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Posts: 1325




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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2017, 09:35:46 AM »


Say Joe,

Do you have a radio tuned nearby so they can hear their dits and dahs as they press the key?

Kraus

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KC4ZGP
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2017, 09:37:39 AM »

Sorry but this would be completely illegal in my country!

So a 'field day' activity doesn't happen. How is new interest mustered?

Kraus
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ON5MF
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Posts: 131


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« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2017, 01:27:12 PM »

Sorry but this would be completely illegal in my country!

So a 'field day' activity doesn't happen. How is new interest mustered?

Kraus
There is very little new interest... but we try to find new hams with demos at events etc.

Field day is definitely not the event where new hams are found over here. FD for us is merely a contest and emergency exercise 'in the field'.
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Mostly (low power) rtty contesting using OQ6A, sometimes dxing using ON5MF
in november '14,'15,'16,'17 and '18 also OP5MF, special prefix in commemoration of 100 years WW 1

www.on5mf.be
M0LEP
Member

Posts: 479




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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2017, 03:39:13 PM »

So a 'field day' activity doesn't happen. How is new interest mustered?

Certainly not (for the most part) during Field Day events, if only because most of the big FD stations are out in fields well away from the general public.

Special Event Stations, on the other hand, often happen at places (like museums, historic buildings, and so on) to which the public have access, and they're often organised so as to attract spectators. Quite likely they'll have displays and activities associated with the actual station. One quite common side-show is a Morse key and sounder (or two) for visitors to play with (not on-the-air).
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AA4PB
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Posts: 14287




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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2017, 03:59:42 PM »

If you are letting an unlicensed person communicate over your station, make sure to abide by the 3rd party regulations. Your guest operator is considered a 3rd party communications so it would be illegal for him to use your station to communicate with any country that does not have a 3rd party agreement with the U.S. As the control operator, you are the one responsible for legal operation.

My kids have spoken to others using a voice mode, but I doubt that they'd ever spend the time to learn CW in order to use the radio.

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WW7KE
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Posts: 552




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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2017, 04:53:23 PM »

I have tried this with my kids (ages 8-10) and grandkids (ages 8-10).  Can you say "dummy load" children?  No need to worry what they "send".  I crank the power down to the minimum, and connect the dummy load.  Great fun.  For about 10 minutes.

And perfectly legal in the US under Part 15, so long as the dummy load doesn't radiate much and the power level is low enough, per 47 CFR §15.223.

Quote from: FCC Part 15
§15.223   Operation in the band 1.705-10 MHz.

(a) The field strength of any emission within the band 1.705-10.0 MHz shall not exceed 100 microvolts/meter at a distance of 30 meters. However, if the bandwidth of the emission is less than 10% of the center frequency, the field strength shall not exceed 15 microvolts/meter or (the bandwidth of the device in kHz) divided by (the center frequency of the device in MHz) microvolts/meter at a distance of 30 meters, whichever is the higher level. For the purposes of this section, bandwidth is determined at the points 6 dB down from the modulated carrier. The emission limits in this paragraph are based on measurement instrumentation employing an average detector. The provisions in §15.35(b) for limiting peak emissions apply.

(b) The field strength of emissions outside of the band 1.705-10.0 MHz shall not exceed the general radiated emission limits in §15.209.

§15.209 says 30 uV/m at 30 meters between 1.7 and 30 MHz.
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He speaks fluent PSK31...  One QSO with him earns you 5BDXCC...  His Wouff Hong has two Wouffs... Hiram Percy Maxim called HIM "The Old Man..."  He is... The Most Interesting Ham In The World!
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