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Author Topic: TS-590SG or IC-7300 in the long Term?  (Read 45215 times)
N6MWA
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Posts: 10




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« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2018, 07:10:53 PM »

Thousands of dollars of test equipment and engineering time probably does not mean anything.

The problem is lab test in controlled conditions does not directly correlate to real world and it cannot quantify how it sounds to your ear.

Thank you for setting me straight. I was simply unaware that $2.00 worth of coffee and a subjective analysis of the performance of HF radios was superior or equal to thousands of man hours of engineering. With this new information I will be confident in my ability to wisely choose my next HF radio.
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AB9TX
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Posts: 39




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« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2018, 11:10:57 AM »

Todd go with the IC-7300, or the IC-7610 if you can swing it.  Both very very nice radios, great audio and wonderful bandscopes.
As an SDR with knobs, both are user friendly.

Good luck,

Earl
AB9TX
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W8JX
Member

Posts: 12627




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« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2018, 03:16:04 PM »

Thousands of dollars of test equipment and engineering time probably does not mean anything.

The problem is lab test in controlled conditions does not directly correlate to real world and it cannot quantify how it sounds to your ear.

Thank you for setting me straight. I was simply unaware that $2.00 worth of coffee and a subjective analysis of the performance of HF radios was superior or equal to thousands of man hours of engineering. With this new information I will be confident in my ability to wisely choose my next HF radio.

This reminds of what a horse trainer once told me. He said he can train horse to do what he wanted in his environment but could not guarantee how it would listen to its owner or in their environment. Same with a radio test in that it is done in highly CONTROLLED conditions, not on your desk. Nor does the test remotely begin to quantify how it sounds to your ear! You could just blindly take Sherwood tests as the gospel on choosing a rig or you can do it the proper way with strongly weighing hands on performance and how it sounds to YOUR ear moreso than Sherwood ratings. So you can be sarcastic and closed minded like post above or open minded and realize that there is far more to a rig than Sherwood ratings.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
N6MWA
Member

Posts: 10




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« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2018, 03:54:02 PM »

Thousands of dollars of test equipment and engineering time probably does not mean anything.

The problem is lab test in controlled conditions does not directly correlate to real world and it cannot quantify how it sounds to your ear.

Thank you for setting me straight. I was simply unaware that $2.00 worth of coffee and a subjective analysis of the performance of HF radios was superior or equal to thousands of man hours of engineering. With this new information I will be confident in my ability to wisely choose my next HF radio.

This reminds of what a horse trainer once told me. He said he can train horse to do what he wanted in his environment but could not guarantee how it would listen to its owner or in their environment. Same with a radio test in that it is done in highly CONTROLLED conditions, not on your desk. Nor does the test remotely begin to quantify how it sounds to your ear! You could just blindly take Sherwood tests as the gospel on choosing a rig or you can do it the proper way with strongly weighing hands on performance and how it sounds to YOUR ear moreso than Sherwood ratings. So you can be sarcastic and closed minded like post above or open minded and realize that there is far more to a rig than Sherwood ratings.

Who is being closed minded and sarcastic? Just thanking you for the sage advise in selecting HF transceivers.
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PA1ZP
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Posts: 624




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« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2018, 11:40:36 AM »

Hi

I have a IC7300, and had a TS590S .

Yes I am going to give my 2 cts of powder coffee and skimmed milk.

I am much more an antenna builder and designer as an electronics guy.

First of all the Sherwood numbers could be interpreted a lot better if you carefully listen to his presentations on his website.

And in his presentations he is very clear that the audio on the ears also has big influences.
He also states very clearly that he had his some rigs on the bench that gave him "listening fatigue" due to the bad audio quality these rigs produced.

Now going back to the subject, the IC7300 or TS590SG in the long term.
Both rigs are very different from looks and technical set-up and design.

Lets be very simple , some guys love blonds, others love brunettes, and some love redheads.
Choose the rig which makes you comfortable operating it.

In testing at our camping site during our yearly ham event we came to the conclusion that the TS590S was better in handling very strong singnals coming from very close and nearby stations on the camping, as the IC7300.

If I hear contesting I am making use of the on/off button to leave the bands to those whome like contesting. 
At home I am having troubles with awfully high QRM levels, quality of the reciever is not that important at all here, can it cope with these noise levels.

As i already build my own TX/RX antenna switches and noise canceler years ago , how many antenna ports a rig has isn't important at all for me.
I also build my own el-bugs so how many CW keys a rig can take also not important, solved these problems long ago.
Does it have USB ports or IP ports , i do not mind, I need a single antenna port , a single CW key port and TX ground and a jack for an external speaker.

Personally i think though these rigs differ wildly, in average performance they are very close.
I think the TS590S or SG will be a bit better in handling real strong signals, and more important for me I like the CW RX audio of the IC7300 a lot better as the CW RX audio of the TS590S.

All in all both rigs belong to the top of their priceclass, both are fine rigs.

73 Jos
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N0YXB
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Posts: 1256




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« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2018, 08:22:00 AM »

Thanks Jos, nice review. To clarify, you find the CW RX audio of the IC7300 better than the CW RX audio of the TS590S? I was expecting you to say the CW receive audio is better on the 590. Interesting.
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KT0DD
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Posts: 416




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« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2018, 07:37:17 PM »

Ok, having had my IC-7300 for a couple of months, I can say I do like it a lot. I really like the bells and whistles and now Rob Sherwood's second tests show even better numbers that would apply to my later production model. It passes the TT Orion II I had 10 years ago and I liked that radio.

The only quirk I can say that I've noticed is that the IC-7300 seems to have a lot of white noise in the background on receive on the lower bands, especially 75m. I noticed this on the IC-706MKIIG I owned as well.

I don't think it is enough of an issue for me to trade to a TS-590SG, especially since I LOVE the TX audio and I've been bitten by the scope bug. (7300 has great display features). I am curious as to whether the TS-590SG would have a quieter receiver with less white noise. Reducing RF gain helps but sometimes you lose weaker stations doing this. Maybe I will buy a TS590SG used and give it a shot. I may have to have one of each...lol.

Todd - KT0DD
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K6UJ
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Posts: 1234




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« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2018, 08:06:47 PM »

Ok, having had my IC-7300 for a couple of months, I can say I do like it a lot. I really like the bells and whistles and now Rob Sherwood's second tests show even better numbers that would apply to my later production model. It passes the TT Orion II I had 10 years ago and I liked that radio.

The only quirk I can say that I've noticed is that the IC-7300 seems to have a lot of white noise in the background on receive on the lower bands, especially 75m. I noticed this on the IC-706MKIIG I owned as well.

I don't think it is enough of an issue for me to trade to a TS-590SG, especially since I LOVE the TX audio and I've been bitten by the scope bug. (7300 has great display features). I am curious as to whether the TS-590SG would have a quieter receiver with less white noise. Reducing RF gain helps but sometimes you lose weaker stations doing this. Maybe I will buy a TS590SG used and give it a shot. I may have to have one of each...lol.

Todd - KT0DD



I am surprised at your noticing "a lot" of white noise with the  IC-7300.  I have a 7300 also.  It is noticeably quieter in background noise than my Elecraft K3 and Yaesu FTDX5000.  Especially on the low bands. That is one of the things that new users of the 7300 comment on first.  I suspect you have something else going on that provides you with high background noise.  I had a TS590SG for a while and although I did not do an A/B comparison it was not any quieter with background noise than the other radios.  You have a great SDR radio with the 7300.  Thanks to the new SDR front end they provide lower background noise.  Heard many comments on the Yahoo IC-7300 user group about its quiet receive.  Anyway I need to quit rambling on  Cheesy  Before investing money in a 590 I would look into it some more. 

Bob
K6UJ
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W8JX
Member

Posts: 12627




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« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2018, 05:45:16 AM »


The only quirk I can say that I've noticed is that the IC-7300 seems to have a lot of white noise in the background on receive on the lower bands, especially 75m. I noticed this on the IC-706MKIIG I owned as well.


I think your white noise is atmospheric noise. Lower bands is dead give away. It simply hears better. I rarely use preamp on 40 m and below. Not sure why some tend to use max gain on lower bands when nioise is a limiting factor a gain amplifies noise too.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
KE2TR
Member

Posts: 703




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« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2018, 07:04:27 AM »

In the past 10 years I have owned going back farther than that the old FT1000MP all filters and the Inrad roof installed, a good legacy radio but all those conversions add to internal RX noise or as you call it white noise. Fast forward a bit and I bought a TS590S in which I had it side by side with the MP for about a month then sold the MP. The 590 had a better notch, believe it or not the selectivity was about the same until you went down below 200Hz on cw and the white noise was a little lower. After I sold the MP I built up a K3 which was very selective and great on CW but could not warm up to the awkward way the control layout was plus RX audio which after an hour of use gave me a migraine. I sold it after a month and felt the 590 was just a more pleasing radio to use but it had its downfalls such as the NR filters made voices sound like they were under water, the NB opened up the IF strip when strong signals were near by plus ringing down around 100Hz or below. The next radio I tried was the FTDX3000, this had the lowest white noise of any RX section I have tried so far, everything worked very well, cw down to 50Hz and no ringing, the NR was an improvement but it still had those digital artifacts and the NB still had issues with a strong signal near by but was better than the 590. Now forget the fish finder but at least the 3000 made it easy for adding a pan display with a separate sdr RX plus had all kind of extra jacks and plugs for almost any station setup.
Now we get into in the past year after having the Yaesu radio the longest since late 2013 I get a IC 7300 for my birthday in October, my first SDR with knobs. Knowing full well that Icom has always had more sensitivity than any other rig on the market and you really don't need to use there pre amps at HF I ran the 7300 threw its paces. The NR is excellent and I leave it on almost all the time at position 3, the NR when properly adjusted you can get it to remove many noises without the open IF strip sound from nearby station, the fish finder is what Icom is famous for so nuf said, the notch is excellent and on CW plus the filtering is the best I have seen thus far only to be bested by not allot with maybe a Flex but they are close, the RF gain is like having a continuous adjustable attenuation this alone knock it out of the park plus the white noise when no pre amp is used is about the same as most radio's only bested by the FTDX3K by a small amount. Here is what I miss from the Yaesu is having a second VFO knob while hunting splits during SSB contest on 40 meters, I think Icom could maybe adjust the firmware were the Multi knob when going split could be used to adjust the second VFO like Kenwood does on the 590, I miss the APF/contour controls, having the adaptability to go with a second SDR RX for a larger than life pan display with easy hook ups, much easier voice keyer in the Yaesu. As far as the RX numbers are concerned the Icom doesn't get swamped by strong CW signals that I though all had key click problems but it was the RX sections before that had that strong signal bleed threw, the Icom does what the K3 did just sound soo much better and you can listen to its excellent audio for hours on end. In operated the ARRL for about 18 hours over the past weekend and I must say this little radio impressed the hell out of me, once you get pasts its small size it operational ability is excellent, handles itself very well plus all the BS about the overflow light is when you place the pre amps on in which except on 10 meters were the signals were so very weak I never turned it on and never seen that idiot light come on at all even when a ham down the road about a mile away was on. As far as FD well if your club is to cheap to not invest in some simple single band bandpass filters which would help with any radio you use they shouldn't be out there running multi class to begin with and there just looking for a way to damage any radio being used in a high RF location. Is there better radio's out there HELL YES but you gotta open your wallet up allot more to get small increase and I feel that in the long run the 7300 would best the 590 but they are both solid radio's in today's marketplace.
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K1HMS
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Posts: 487




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« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2018, 03:41:31 PM »

Watch https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=owaaT6u4XkY At Contest University Sherwood mentions the 590 and 7300.

I have a TS-590SG and a IC-7300. My station is built around the 590, the 7300 isn't hooked up at the moment. I find I copy weak signals better with the 590. Both radio hear the same. I used the 590 as a 13 Colonies operator, we (K2K) were first last year by 5 QSOs.
The 590 is a long ways from a analog radio. It is a superhet but with a DDS driving digital mixers. The narrow filters and demodulation is all DSP.

For field day we were 7A with 5 IC-7300s, a KX3, and 2 FlexRadio 6700s (one for digital modes and one was GOTA and not included in the 7A). Even with DX Engineering filters we had interference on the 7300s due to the wide open front end ahead of the ADC. Still, as 7A we were first 1st in 2016 and 2nd in 2017.

They are both great radios. Decide based on two antenna ports versus one, a antenna output port for experimenting with SDRs, ergonomics, appearance, sound, etc.

Is the horse dead yet?

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N8FVJ
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Posts: 611




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« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2018, 10:35:56 AM »

Kenwood TS-590SG. It is better than a IC-7300, but not by a lot. Just a quieter receiver that allows digging the weak one out of the noise. And, I don't care if it is Yaesu, ICOM or Kenwood in my shack.
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VK3BL
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Posts: 1594


WWW

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« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2018, 11:03:02 PM »


The only quirk I can say that I've noticed is that the IC-7300 seems to have a lot of white noise in the background on receive on the lower bands, especially 75m. I noticed this on the IC-706MKIIG I owned as well.


I think your white noise is atmospheric noise. Lower bands is dead give away. It simply hears better. I rarely use preamp on 40 m and below. Not sure why some tend to use max gain on lower bands when nioise is a limiting factor a gain amplifies noise too.

Same here.  Nearly always run the ATT on 12dB on 40M, often 6dB on 20M.

I get questions all the time as to why I'm running the attenuator... I would have though the answer was obvious - I have excess signal?

Its funny how many interpret the noise/hash as coming from the radio, when simply unplugging the antenna would prove otherwise.
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J.D. Mitchell BA  - VK3BL / XU7AGA - https://www.youtube.com/ratemyradio - Honesty & Integrity
N4UE
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Posts: 756




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« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2018, 12:52:13 PM »

+1 on the 'noise' comment.

Some folks can't seem to understand the 7300 has a very sensitive receiver.
Or, the guys that use a preamp on 40/20 Meters while using an inferior antenna...


SMH

ron
N4UE
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VK3BL
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« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2018, 06:42:16 PM »

+1 on the 'noise' comment.

Some folks can't seem to understand the 7300 has a very sensitive receiver.
Or, the guys that use a preamp on 40/20 Meters while using an inferior antenna...


SMH

ron
N4UE

Icom would do well to not allow the pre-amp to be turned on when bands below 20M are in use.  So many people will be trashing their receiver performance running the preamp on low bands and not even realising it.

The Preamp and Attenuator are singlehandedly the two most important features of a receiver that an operator simply must learn to master.

I've got a 'bells and whistles' IC-7610, but they're the only tools (and RF Gain) that I use.  Especially during a contest, I just let the thing between my ears do all the DSP work.

NR, IF Shift & all the other fancy toys are a bit of fun when you've got time to fiddle... perhaps for a net or chasing an ATNO, but I still find my between ear DSP to be the best tool I have.

Cheers,
Jarrad
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J.D. Mitchell BA  - VK3BL / XU7AGA - https://www.youtube.com/ratemyradio - Honesty & Integrity
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