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Author Topic: Crossband Repeater is it Legal?  (Read 582 times)
AB9GX
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« on: January 21, 2005, 06:11:59 PM »

Crossband Repeater is it Legal?
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DROLLTROLL
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2005, 06:16:46 PM »

Yes, if you use it correctly.
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K1CJS
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2005, 06:53:46 PM »

Using it corrctly means you identify every 10 minutes and you're close enough to the crossband repeater rig to shut it down if something goes wrong--or you have a cutoff timer set up to shut it down.  Crossband should only be used under those two circumstances although many operators use it otherwise.

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W7DJM
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2005, 07:49:18 PM »

Depends.

Some people think you should use this "one way" that is, your handheld transmits on UHF to the "mobile repeater"  and it repeats on VHF to another 2 meter repeater, which you then receive DIRECT on your 2 meter rx on your handheld.  This way, when you ID on the handheld, the mobile transmitter should be id'd (on VHF) too.

(How are you going to disable the VHF rx to UHF tx section?)

 ONE PROBLEM  is

You MUST be sure you pick a clear UHF freq, because some apparently clear freqs may actually be link freqs for other repeaters, voters, and control links.

IF YOU let the thing repeat both ways,  it gets to be a real "sticky wicket" to make sure you identify the downlink.  You have  to do this separately--a scenario.

Say you're out, hiking, on your bike, and you have this set up "both ways."

You must switch to BOTH RX freqs every 10 minutes and ID, and if you don't, you can't be sure that the thing is legally being ID'd

DO YOU have control?  Seems to me you'd have to be within 3 minutes time of the repeater, or have some other remote shutdown control, in case of interferance or other problems.

ANOTHER point.  Some folks say, well I'll just use it ONE WAY, that is, I'll "talk" to the repeater on UHF, and set the VHF to an unused freq.  Well, how do you KNOW that?   All it takes is some burst of noise to the VHF receiver, and it will retransmit on UHF. (Where do you have the UHF transmitter set?)

The thing you must remember, if you do this, is that you have just become a "repeater owner"  and you bear the burden of all rules regarding interferance to others, proper operation, and ID.

Last I heard, you still had to remote control any transmitter on 222mhz or higher--not two meters.
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KE7CQG
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2005, 07:59:37 PM »

Well, there's actually two kinds of crossband repeaters (CBRs).

First, there's a one-way CBR. Let's say you tune your HT to transmit on 70cm and receive on 2m. Then you use a CBR to repeat your 70cm transmissions on 2m. The party you're talking to transmits on 2m, and you receive that directly on your HT.

I'm a total newbie but as far as I know, this is legal. When you ID on 70cm, you're also IDing on 2m. Since the other party does not use your repeater, automatic ID on the CBR is not necessary.

The problem comes up when another ham uses your one-way CBR to transmit on 70cm -- they identify their 70cm transmission to your CBR, but *your* license is the one "operating" when the CBR is transmitting on 2m. In that case, I would think that you must set up your CBR to automatically ID with your callsign. Again, I could be completely wrong, so somebody please chime in.

The other kind of CBR is two-way. You set up your HT to transmit *and* receive on 70cm. Since the party you're talking to transmits on 2m and your CBR repeats that on 70cm, I would think that you *must* set up an automatic IDer because *every* 70cm transmission from your CBR is by somebody other than you.

As mentioned previously, you must also have the ability to shut down your CBR and/or have an automatic time-out. Beyond that, I don't know the rules so I welcome other comments. And somebody please correct me if I'm spouting nonsense. Smiley

73
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W7DJM
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2005, 10:26:17 PM »

Actually CQG, you're close to the problem.

Here's my standard story, and its mostly true, at least as far as I can remember.

In the Spokane area, there's KBARA, I think 4 two meter repeaters constantly linked over a wide area, and in addition, KBARA's system can be linked onto the "Evergreen Intertie,"  clear over to Seattle, and down to Portland.

Next, we have the WA7YCP wide area, voted system, using several voted receivers and simulcast transmitters to cover a wide area, all on 147.20.  You can look them both up.  

(It normally can be linked to the K7PP system, allowing you to communicate, all on 147.20, from northern Idaho to Seattle.)


Now, we have someone who wanted a cross band repeat system, and he "just happened" to land the UHF transmitter (bi directional) on one of the 450 link freq's for the YCP system, and he was REPEATING the KBARA system, so.....

The KBARA audio was being illegally repeated onto the WA7YCP system, with NO id'er.  That is, the "cross band repeater owner"  was not id'ing it.   Worse, he wasn't even aware that he was on an established link RX frequency.

It wasn't malicious, it was a silly mistake by a ham, but it certainly illustrates the problems these things can brew.
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K1CJS
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2005, 07:05:00 AM »

It amazes me how such a simple issue can be complicated so much.

First, there is a bandplan that specifies where the repeater and the simplex frequencies should be in both the 2 meter and 70 cm bands.  There is always the chance you may wind up on a band in use, that's why you should be close enough to the 'repeater' rig to shut it down or change the frequency if needed.

Second, always set up the local side (whichever side you are using for your input to your 'repeater') to utilize one frequency (simplex), and there's no need to 'switch and ID' because you're already on the frequency your 'repeater' is transmitting on when sending to your handheld.  If you want to be a real stickler about it, you can id with your call and say 'crossband repeating'.  The other side of your 'repeater' can be set up either simplex or duplex depending on what you're trying to do--local wide area or getting into a repeater.

If there are problems and your frequency selections interfere with a coordinated repeater system, change them!  That's the only thing we're required to do.  Crossband repeating is meant to be a temporary measure so we can communicate more efficiently, it is never meant to be used as a permanent repeater.    

Why do some always throw up additional roadblocks where there are actually none--if you set your rigs up properly to begin with?  
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W7DJM
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2005, 09:33:13 AM »


======================================================
"""It amazes me how such a simple issue can be complicated so much."""
=======================================================

That's because it can become complicated.


======================================================
""First, there is a bandplan that specifies where the repeater and the simplex frequencies should be in both the 2 meter and 70 cm bands.""
======================================================

Not all areas of  the U.S. follow "the bandplan."  

So I guess that would be complication no. 1



=====================================================

"" There is always the chance you may wind up on a band in use, that's why you should be close enough to the 'repeater' rig to shut it down or change the frequency if needed.""
=======================================================

The very problem with your above statement, as in the example story I posted, is that the "crossband repeater owner"  did not KNOW he was interfering--because he was using a 440 downlink that was  transmitting (from his mobile) right into a 440 link RECEIVER.   Since he wasn't actually "in contact"  no one knew who was causing the interferance--there was no obvious link.

No, it wasn't being ID'ed, time'd out or "under control"--all violations.


======================================================
 

"""Second, always set up the local side (whichever side you are using for your input to your 'repeater') to utilize one frequency (simplex), and there's no need to 'switch and ID' because you're already on the frequency your 'repeater' is transmitting on when sending to your handheld. If you want to be a real stickler about it, you can id with your call and say 'crossband repeating'. The other side of your 'repeater' can be set up either simplex or duplex depending on what you're trying to do--local wide area or getting into a repeater.""
======================================================


I do NOT understand the above.  How are you going to "crossband repeat" if it is simplex?  This may be the key to the whole problem, so maybe you can explain this?

What does this mean?

""you're already on the frequency your 'repeater' is transmitting on when sending to your handheld."


======================================================
If there are problems and your frequency selections interfere with a coordinated repeater system, change them! That's the only thing we're required to do. Crossband repeating is meant to be a temporary measure so we can communicate more efficiently, it is never meant to be used as a permanent repeater.
=======================================================

I absolutely agree with that!!!

=======================================================
""Why do some always throw up additional roadblocks where there are actually none--if you set your rigs up properly to begin with? ""
=======================================================

No one is throwing up additional roadblocks.

So far as "set your rig up right" --  on both my Yaesu and Icom dual bander there is NO WAY that I can determine that will disable the VHF rx/ UHF transmit--the one thing that would solve this problem.  
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W4JLE
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2005, 10:10:03 AM »

You are legal if you meet the following conditions:

1. You must communicate with your crossband rig on an authorized auxillary frequency (above 222.15 Mhz) and since you are the "Control Operator", you must be able to control it. (97.7,97.201, and 97.213)

2.If the control link fails the remote must shutdown with in three miniutes. So you need a timer. (97.213

3.The unattended station must be IDed on ALL frequencies. Since the UHF downlink has no way to identify, you would need an automatic IDer. (97.119)

Answers to this and othe rquestions may be found in "The ARRL FCC Rule Book", or part 97 found on many sites on the net. The ARRL Book save a lot of searching.

73 Fred W4JLE
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WB6BYU
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2005, 11:50:15 AM »

Note that switching your HT to the other frequency to ID
is NOT adequate:  the rules say that the transmitter must
ID.  That way, anyone who can hear the transmitter output
(or perhaps a spurious output from it) will hear the ID.
So any link from your cross-band radio to your HT must
have an ID'er with your callsign.
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AE0Z
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2005, 11:33:54 AM »

Radio1 - my 70cm xcvr
Radio2 - my dual band radio set up for 2m/70cm crossband repeating (what it hears on 70cm it transmits on 2 m and vice versa*)
Radio3 - 2m xcvr

When Radio1 transmits, two radios end up transmitting: Radio1 and Radio2. If I id on one, I id on both stations, both frequencies.

When Radio3 transmits, he too causes two radios to transmit: Radio3 and Radio2. Any time he id's, he id's on both stations, both frequencies.

In respect to identifying, we're legal. No unidentified transmissions are taking place, even unintentionally.

There is a potential for interference taking place on 70cm if Radio3 is not aware of the crossbander, so I as the control op of the crossbander need to be monitoring, because I am responsible for any 70cm interference (not the guy using Radio3).

* I believe some radios have the capability to crossband "one way", ie, what is heard on 70cm is sent on 2m, but what is heard on 2m is NOT transmitted on 2m. I think of that as transverting and not repeating.

Hope this helps.
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Howard AE0Z
1 Peter 4:10
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