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Author Topic: Are CC&R's valid without an active HOA?  (Read 8073 times)
W6TGE
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Posts: 154




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« on: May 21, 2009, 01:40:00 PM »

Hello ALL:
I know that it can't be decided for sure without "testing" this but it would be expensive to try.

I had thought about a small Tublar Tower at our house, but the CC&R's forbid antennas or towers of any kind. These CC&R's are 20 years old and were done when the homes in our area were built. However, what used to pass as an HOA, has, for YEARS now just been someone to collect a few dollars to pay the electric bill for the entrance to the Development. There is no HOA. As in many cases, almost everything in the CC&R's has been ignored, but you know as soon as an antenna goes up I am afraid that, as usual, that is the one thing they will try to enforce.

However, that leads to my question...can there be valid CC&R's if there is no HOA?

TIA
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N5VTU
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2009, 01:59:22 PM »

Hi, I don't really have an answer to your question, but in the past two CC&R neighborhoods I've resided in, both had deed restrictions that stated if you submitted an application for an improvement of any kind and it wasn't approved or denied in writing within 30 days by the POA, it was the same as having been approved.  That's how I got my tower installed at the first QTH.  Perhaps having an "inactive" HOA would be to your benefit, especially if you have similar wording in your CC&R's and nobody is available to review a submitted application.  

Good Luck.
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W6TGE
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2009, 02:30:19 PM »

I will look at the CC&R's again to see what it says.
I know that someone just had a small building built in the back of his property, as the County sent us info about it. It was approved, as he was going to run his small business out of it and they had all these restrictions as to how many customers a day he could have and how much traffic there would be.

What they missed (and none of us cared) was that according to the CC&R's NO business can be done from your home let alone a separate building. However, I guess the County that issues the permits has nothing to do with CC&R's or HOA's.

The reason I do not want to say anything to our "HOA" is that I do not want to alert them, and I would not know who to contact anyway. In fact the person we send our small amount of money to each year for the front entry way has made it clear that ALL he does is collect the money and pay that bill.
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KG4RUL
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2009, 05:47:45 PM »

But, here is the fly in the ointment.  Some CC&Rs allow ANY homeowner covered by them to request that they be enforced by the county, etc.  If you have a neighbor, or just a busy-body, who has a burr under their saddle (so to speak), your nice, new, permitted tower could have to come down!
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W6TGE
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Posts: 154




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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2009, 06:22:11 PM »

Well, I think what I will do is call the County and ask about it. I was just thinking of one of those US Towers 40' mast towers, so they may not even know I put it up. Still too much money to risk!
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2009, 06:22:30 PM »

Easier to ask forgiveness than permission.
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W6TGE
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2009, 06:43:15 PM »

I know which is why I want to ask the County about it before I see if CC&R's matter without an HOA!
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WLANDDX
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2009, 05:09:22 AM »

If your CC&R forbids any antenna, DO NOT put it
up. You DO NOT need an association to come after you.

Any homeowner can go to the Civil court to enforce
the covenant against you. The covenant is a private
land contract that goes with the land on which the
house was built.

TV antennas are allowed by Federal law. The
law also covers any kind of "mast" that supports it.

If you acquire a permit to put it up, all the better. You have a bullet proof defence.

So for starters, put up a TV antenna. Beyond that, i
would consider consulting one of the ARRL Volunteer
Counsels before proceeding.

No, it is bad advice to go ahead and put it up because
you WILL be at a disadvantage should things take a
legal angle.

It is always better to follow the straight path no
matter how hard.

73s
{callsign witheld to avoid any monitoring by my HOA}
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AA4PB
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2009, 06:41:41 AM »

To answer your question, yes CC&Rs are valid without an active HOA. The question is, who will enforce them? Individual homeowners and the county are two possibilities.
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K7RNV
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2009, 08:43:11 AM »

Send email write or call  you congress people in your state to help support HR2160..It will add antenna issue that can be a good thing for us Hams..
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W6TGE
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Posts: 154




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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2009, 11:40:51 AM »

I was thinking of just adding a 2/440 ground plane to the chimney with a small side mount. I could then see if anyone complains. In that case, there would be no permit required. I wonder if anyone would bother going to court over a small ground plane like the Arrow GP 146/440. I wonder if that would be good enough for the 3 LEO's that are up now?
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WX7G
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2009, 11:51:48 AM »

K7RNV,

HR2160 looks like an attempt to nullify valid CC&Rs already agreed to by property owners by invoking the false notion that all or most amateur radio stations can and will be used for emergency communications.

Being a special interest group the ARRL has a mandate from its members to be very aggressive on this sort of thing.

From several ethical viewpoints nullifying CC&R's under false pretences is unethical.  
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W6TGE
Member

Posts: 154




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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2009, 12:44:40 PM »

WX7G

I do understand what you are saying, and we did sign these when we bought our homes. In our case I think the CC&R's were just given to us.

However, my big complaint is that in every case where we had CC&R's in all the states we lived in, the ONLY thing they ever enforced was NO ANTENNAS!.

We have had CC&R's that said you could not park on the street, could not leave a car in the driveway while changing the oil, could not even leave your garage door open, could not have barking dogs, and could not run a business out of your house. All of this was done and ignored...BUT just try to put up even a TV antenna (Arvada, Colorado) and they came down on you! OH, I forgot one...Arvada again...no cloths lines.

I understand why some neighbors would not like a 70' tower to look at with an 11 el HF Beam, but some holler at even the smallest antenna of any kind.
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N2EY
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Posts: 3877




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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2009, 03:56:44 AM »

The correct answer is: "It depends"

"CC&R" means "Conditions, Covenants and Restrictions", and they take many different forms. Different folks write them differently and there are many variations.

For example, they may be deed restrictions, with no expiration date or mechanism. If so, they "run with the land" and don't need an HOA to be enforced.

Or, they may be a framework for HOA rules, and without an HOA they effectively don't exist.

A good Real Estate attorney can tell you.

While some might say "put it up and see what happens" or "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission", you might want to think twice about that approach. Because if you put it up and somebody complains and the restrictions apply, you may be in deep doo-doo not only having to take it down but having to pay legal costs, fines, etc.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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W6TGE
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Posts: 154




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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2009, 12:38:21 PM »

Thank you, Jim.

Our CC&R's do expire in 25 years which is not far away. It does say something about them renewing for 10 years thereafter, but will need to read them again. I expect a tower would lead to issues, but I would think that a simple dual band 2m/440 ground plane would be OK, or at least someone would voice a concern before trying to go to court.

P.S. Our next door neighbor is a Real Estate Atty, and because of the trees he would not see an antenna, but I do not want to bother him about this.
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