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Author Topic: Are CC&R's valid without an active HOA?  (Read 9173 times)
N2EY
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Posts: 3913




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« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2009, 01:47:07 PM »

W6TGE:

"Our CC&R's do expire in 25 years which is not far away. It does say something about them renewing for 10 years thereafter, but will need to read them again."

You may be in luck! It would be good to know exactly what they say, and what the renewal would require. For example, if you don't want to renew them, but your neighbors do, could you just opt out? Does renewal have to be unanimous, 2/3, majority, or what? Etc.

"I expect a tower would lead to issues, but I would think that a simple dual band 2m/440 ground plane would be OK, or at least someone would voice a concern before trying to go to court."

Possibly, but if it were me I'd want to know all the legal ramifications first.

"Our next door neighbor is a Real Estate Atty"

IMHO and with all due respect, that could be a good thing or a bad thing.

If he's on your side, it could be a very good thing, but if not, he'll know exactly how to fight you.

What I'd do is to try to find an RE atty. who will *quietly* research and let you know where you stand legally before you do anything. IOW you don't want to spill the beans and have folks thinking you're going to put up a big tower when all you want is a dual-bander.

73 es GL de Jim, N2EY
 
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W0MT
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Posts: 173




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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2009, 02:35:51 PM »

While it may be true in some jurisdictions, I have NEVER heard of CC&Rs being enforced by any government entity unless the CC&Rs repeat something in the local code like zoning restrictions. Even then the government would be enforcing local law and not the CC&Rs. CC&Rs are a private contract among the home owners and in some cases, a HOA. The are enforceable by a civil lawsuit brought by someone with standing. Those who have standing are the rest of the homeowners covered by the CC&Rs and, if the CC&Rs grant the power, by a HOA. Generally homeowners do not file a civil suit to enforce because of the expense for attorney fees and filing fees. Unless the CC&Rs award the legal fees to the winner, if someone files a suit and wins it is still very expensive. Normally, if a civil suit results in a remedy, the remedy is forced compliance rather than money damages. That means that an attorney taking such a suit would want to be paid up front.
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W6TGE
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Posts: 154




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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2009, 03:37:36 PM »

Well, what has been said is true, but my main concern is that we have to still live here. I would not want to do anything major that would get the neighbors upset.

Still, regarding the County vs. the HOA or CC&R's go, the County did approve the use of a building for a small business on a neighbors property. They limited the number of cars, etc, but the CC&R's are very specific that this is NOT allowed in any way!
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KA4AQM
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Posts: 59




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« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2009, 05:52:45 AM »

Get and read a copy of the CCRs or go down to the local govt body and find the text of the CCR.  In it, you may find if it is renewable or not.  If it applies to you, then go stealthy. There are quite a few good articles on the internet that can help you. And remember, put up the best legal antenna you can fully knowing that there is always a bigger and smaller antenna than yours.
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N2EY
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Posts: 3913




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« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2009, 07:48:36 AM »

W0MT: "I have NEVER heard of CC&Rs being enforced by any government entity unless the CC&Rs repeat something in the local code like zoning restrictions."

I have.

It works like this:

Many places require things like a building permits, use variances, etc. At least some local govts. won't issue permits that violate CC&Rs, because then they could possibly be named in a lawsuit and would have to defend themselves.

Of course the rules vary all over the place and what is absolute truth in one place may not apply somewhere else.


73 de Jim, N2EY
 
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K8AC
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« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2009, 04:55:47 PM »

First of all, you can't make any assumptions based on how things are done somewhere other than in your own county.  Go to the Registrar of Deeds and get a copy of the actual covenants document that was filed with that office.  Read it 10 times if necessary until you have a good understanding of just what restrictions are documented.  Don't expect to be able to get any opinions or information from the county employees.  All they know is how to locate the records and documents.  As others have said, that document and the covenants convey with the land and it doesn't matter whether a homeowner has ever seen the document or not - the act of buying the land commits him to the agreement.  Most of the things you'll find in the covenants are open to interpretation.  For example, our covenants forbid satellite dishes except when hidden from view from the street.  But - those covenants were written when satellite dishes were 8 foot monsters, and no one today objects to a small DirecTV or Dish Network dish in plain view.  I'll speculate that the mention of towers in your  covenants was meant to prevent big ugly metallic structures.  But - suppose you erect one of the tubular supports and don't refer to it as a "tower"?  If you paint it and the antenna black so it's hard to see, you might get no objections at all.  That worked for me.  In many cases, it makes sense just to do something and not ask for permission.  If your "tower" is not objectionable to your immediate neighbors, then chances are your homeowner's association isn't even going to be aware of it.  Obviously if your local government requires a permit for erection, you'll want to comply with that, but the county will likely be concerned only that you meet their permit requirements and they won't know or care about any covenants.  From your description, your homeowner's association doesn't have the funds or manpower to bring legal action.  Read the covenants carefully and see if they've made provision for any sort of special assessment for unexpected expenses.  Then ask yourself - would they really go to all that trouble and expense to fight a situation that perhaps no one cares about?  

If there is no active homeowner's association and the developer is long gone, then chances are you won't run into problems from that angle, but that doesn't mean that an individual homeowner with the financial means won't make life difficult for a while.  I recently got drafted into service as an officer in our homeowner's association.  I quickly learned that there are many, many other problems we have to deal with that are much more important than antennas, and I suspect I'll have no trouble deflecting concerns about my tower if someone raises the issue.
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W6TGE
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Posts: 154




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« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2009, 07:57:14 PM »

K8AC

Thank you.

Yes, we do not have an HOA any more, and the County just about rubber stamps Tower requests if they are <60 feet and if they fell they would still be on your own property.

I think that what I am going to try is to put up my old Cushcraft R5 antenna about 8 feet off the ground on the side of our house. It will be in wooded space and we are separated from our neighbor on that side by a large semi dense green space. In fact, if the R5 Vertical works OK, it may be fun to just call it good and forget about the Tubular Type Tower. Some have said anyway that they are not too sturdy anyway!
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N2EY
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Posts: 3913




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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2009, 03:30:16 AM »

K8AC writes: "our covenants forbid satellite dishes except when hidden from view from the street. But - those covenants were written when satellite dishes were 8 foot monsters, and no one today objects to a small DirecTV or Dish Network dish in plain view."

And if they did object, they'd get nowhere, because the OTARD ruling preempts those covenants if the dishes are under a certain size (1 meter?) and used for TV reception.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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WLANDDX
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Posts: 14




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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2009, 04:10:03 AM »

OTARD includes not just "dish antennas under 1 meter",
 but also a Yagi used for off-air TV reception of
channels that are available in the "general coverage area" meaning no Dx signal chasing using the gizmo.
The law also covers any "masts" that are used to
support the yagi.

73s
(Callsign/Name withheld to avoid monitoring by the HOA).
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K8AC
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Posts: 1477




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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2009, 04:35:09 AM »

They may get nowhere, but you'd still face the costs of defending your position in court.  The legal system works great for those who can afford to participate.
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K1CJS
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Posts: 6055




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« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2009, 08:35:24 AM »

The short answer is YES.  To cover your butt, if the association is inactive, send a request to the business address of the association.  Keep copies specifying the date you sent the request in.  Be fully informative--you're not trying to hide anything.  You can even send it with a delivery receipt requested to nail down the dates--if it isn't delivered (nobody will sign for it) it's even better.  It shows the association isn't active and can't be bothered doing business.

If it is delivered but isn't acted on within a specified period, that constitutes approval--be sure to keep all paperwork.  If you're called down on it later, you have your records to show the association isn't doing its job--and you tried to get approval.

One other thing--that course of action may well revive the association, so be prepared for that.  The best way to go is not to buy where there are any CC&Rs that will hinder your activities.
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W6TGE
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Posts: 154




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« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2009, 09:55:57 AM »

Well, I did check as you can see online (in Oregon anyway) if there is an active HOA. I put names in for some of the areas around us and saw them. BUT, when I put ours in there was nothing. We do not have a way to mail them anything.
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AA4PB
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« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2009, 01:50:43 PM »

I'd check with the county to get a copy of the CC&Rs and to see who to contact if you want to request a waver for your antenna. Around here the county does enforce CC&Rs. When my son and I wanted to build a deck on his house, the county made us get the plans approved by the HOA before they would even issue a building permit. Counties often negotiate with builders to get CC&Rs that they want included so that they don't have to go through the legal processes to pass a law. Once the CC&R gets recorded with the land records then anyone who buys the house must "voluntarily" agree to them and the county can enforce them if they choose to.
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W6TGE
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« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2009, 05:15:50 PM »

I DO have a copy of the CC&R's but they do not show just who to contact. Any names are no longer here, and there is no active HOA any more.
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WD4HXG
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Posts: 186




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« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2009, 11:52:45 AM »

I would treat a lawyer living next door like a rattlesnake under the porch steps by assuming he is deceptive, sneaky and bites.

Approaching him about the HOA issue is likely to place him in a "Conflict of Interest" situation where he will advise you to seek counsel elsewhere. If he is adverse to the tower you have now tipped him off about your possible plan of action.

If you need legal counsel then suck it up, pay the $500.00 per hour for a competent lawyer and make sure he is not part of the development where you live.
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