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Author Topic: RF anf headaches question  (Read 534 times)
KG6ECO
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Posts: 15




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« on: March 05, 2008, 05:31:16 PM »

Hello Elmers,

I have a Icom IC-W32A HT, I haven't been really active in past years, but recently I charged up my HT to use and every time I push the PLL button I get a bad headache, to the point I get dizzy and I stop operation. I even use 2.5 W power but still the same headache.

Anyone?
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K0BG
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2008, 05:41:13 PM »

Bad Headache? Is this for real?

Never heard of such a malady. If it does exist, perhaps you need to see a doctor.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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N3OX
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2008, 05:59:31 PM »

It's not the RF causing the headaches unless you have some electronic apparatus installed in your nervous system (which some people do, for epilepsy for example)  

Go see a doctor if you're having bad sudden headaches and dizziness, no matter what it seems to be correlated with.

73,
Dan

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73,
Dan
http://www.n3ox.net

Monkey/silicon cyborg, beeping at rocks since 1995.
WD7Z
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Posts: 51




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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2008, 07:05:15 PM »

Goodness; go see a doctor. Take the radio with you and let us know the result.

I have keyed my wifes heart with cw back when I first got my license.  I didn't know much about what I was doing on the tune-up part at that time.  She has a pacemaker.  It was funny to her, but scared the @%^@! out of me.

WD7Z
formerly W7FRS
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N6AJR
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2008, 07:09:34 PM »

are you running a pace maker or something
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KG6ECO
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Posts: 15




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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2008, 07:20:28 PM »

This is for real

The irony is I'm a physician and for the life of me I cannot figure it out! That is why I asked you guys.

I think I'm going to buy a Yaesu VX-3R to use, it's only 1.5 W that is almost twice a cellphone so it should be okay.

P.S. I have a clean bill of health.
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W5FYI
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2008, 08:08:52 PM »

   This may be really off the wall, but find a practitioner of Nambubripod Allergy Elimination Therapy (www.naet.com); he/she may be able to desensitize your reaction to the EM radiation.

   Have you had a dental check-up lately? You may be getting some kind of diode action between a filling and nerve.

   You're right; this is a strange one.

Stew
 
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N3OX
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2008, 08:52:41 PM »

"The irony is I'm a physician and for the life of me I cannot figure it out! "

I'm reasonably sure than in a full on clinical test we'd discover that a human being is totally unable to detect that they're being exposed to RF energy at levels lower than those which cause thermal effects.  Perhaps it's already been done.

We just don't have sensors for it.

But you can do your own blind tests.

Get a 5W dummy load and a friend to help you.  

Attach the 5W dummy load and use the radio as normal. Depress the PTT and talk on the radio as normal.  Do you still get a headache and dizzy?  It would be BEST if you had a second antenna identical in appearance to the first but that was a dummy load instead.  You could easily build a pair of antennas for this test, two quarter wave whips with BNC mounts, one of which is connected as an antenna, the other of which is a fake with a 5W 50 ohm resistor across the BNC (this is a fairly popular commercial antenna these days, anyway, ;-) )

Tape a piece of opaque paper over the display.  Hand the radio to your friend.  Have them set the power level to a random setting (doesn't the W32A have a 15 milliwatt setting?) and hand it back to you.  

Try it many times, handing it back to the friend to change power levels (or not).

Then have the friend cycle through transmit and not transmit in your vicinity without telling you and have them judge your reaction.

Before you spend the money on a different HT, you should determine what's going on, isolate the cause of your headache and dizziness in connection with the HT, because I very much doubt it's the RF.  I think you'll find you can't detect it at all if you have a friend transmit instead, and that will give you some clue to what's going on.

73,
Dan





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73,
Dan
http://www.n3ox.net

Monkey/silicon cyborg, beeping at rocks since 1995.
K6AER
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Posts: 3489




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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2008, 09:46:16 PM »



You said this happens when you push the PLL button? Do you mean the CTCSS or PL button? The PLL, Phase Lock Loop, in you HT is active the moment you turn the HT on.

There have been thousands of studies done with cell phone, two way radios and HT’s on the effect of electromagnetic radiation on the human skull and body. All have turned out negative as to any pathogenic results. The AMA said they have found no correlation of low level RF to any cancer. The only effect of RF is when exposed to very high levels which results in burning of the tissue.

Every cell phone and two-way manufacture has studied countless results. Even lawyers have given up on that kind of law suit. There is no basis for any correlation between low level RF and tissue damage.

I suggest the action of you using the HT getting a headache is the result of triggering a repressed memory of the HT past usage which resulted in a headache causing experience. Like playing with the HT and rear ending the car in front and having your wife or girl friend yell at you.
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N2VPC
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2008, 09:54:23 PM »

It is highly plausible that KG6ECO is affected by RF in this way.  I have read articles and papers about folks that are sensitive to radio and other electromagnetic radiation emissions.  

The suggestion in the previous posts to see a doctor would be prudent.  Something has changed – if he was never sensitive before and is now it could be a symptom of a bigger issue. Pain is difficult to diagnose.

There is also a possibility the radio could be throwing out upper harmonics in wavelengths small enough and strong enough to affect the optic, aural and/or other nerves.

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KG6ECO
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2008, 12:04:39 AM »

I agree N2VPC may be something is wrong with my HT. I bought it in 2000 right when I got my first ticket. I had no problem then. May be my HT is leaking (RF) or something (if that is possible at all)

I also just remembered sometimes at work to just kid around we play around with security guards Motorola two way radios, they are the professional kind not the FRS kind, and I talk on them and nothing, no problem. So can it be my radio?

I love being a ham, just passed my General about a year ago and I'm going for my extra in a few weeks. I hate to see this happen!

Many thanks to you all for responding and giving me pointer. I'm still open to any ideas.

73

KG6ECO
Pasadena, CA
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WA3SKN
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Posts: 5443




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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2008, 03:58:30 AM »

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!"
Doctor: "Don't do that!"

Does this happen with ANY radio?
Does this happen with ANY frequency?
Does this happen with ANY power level?

Really, discussing this with a doctor would be prudent.  Discussing this with a ham/technician/engineer would have doubtful benefits!
Good luck!

-Mike.
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N1QOQ
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Posts: 188




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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2008, 04:37:55 AM »

Is it possible that you are looking at the display when you transmit and your eyes are trying to focus?
I know I catch my self watching the needle bouce on my rig. 73 Paul
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W8JI
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2008, 05:02:44 AM »

I worked with Art Pilla and others on RF heating and RF effects on humans and animals. This was in the process of my designing a piece of RF medical equipment. Dr. Pilla was head of bio electromagnetics at a large research group and president of the group of scientist experimenting in RF and biological research.

I actually had doctors and researchers from all over the world come to my workplace near Atlanta. I designed the gear and measured the power of RF heating generators and applicators.

The only effect of non-ionizing electromagnetic radiation was heating. We could run hundreds of watts on two meters with a very close antenna and not have any effect other than a small temperature rise. We actually ran nearly a kilowatt into a 2% efficient applicator and it had no ill effects.

Yours is the first care I have heard of where there was a headache.

There is a great deal of quackery and psychological effect (and even fraud) to deal with, so you have to be very careful with bioeffects. I'd suggest a blind test with someone else able to control the power without you knowing when it was on or off. That might take a noise source so you can't hear the switch and a person who does not give you a hint, although a double blind test would be better.

If you find something you think is solid post a link back here in a new thread. I'd sure like to read it. I remember many careful studies at some pretty high power levels, and Dr. Pilla had worked with non-ionizing EM for many years...at least two dozen. We had many conversations about EM fields and animals. His solid conclusion was if you aren't cooking the cells there isn't a hazard, and for the most part RF was theraputic. I know they even studied nurses that used kilowatt level diathermy machines, and even pregnant nurses.

Perhaps Pilla is still around and still working in bio electromagetics. Maybe you can reach him.

73 Tom
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N2JSO
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Posts: 21




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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2008, 08:15:53 AM »

Is it possible that the HT is emitting a sound when transmitting?  Possibly ultrasonic?  When I was younger, sometimes ultrasonic motion detectors (used in alarm systems) would give me a headache.  I haven't had that happen in years.  I don't know if such devices are no longer used or I'm just not sensitive to them anymore.  I know my high frequency hearing has diminished.
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