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Author Topic: Why do CB'ers hate ham operators so much?  (Read 45459 times)

Posts: 5

« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2009, 08:51:03 AM »

"But, to answer your question, I, along with many others, operated 11m CW and AM until one day in 1958 we were told we could no longer use that band. My 300 watts CW/AM with the VFO suddenly became useless."

Wasn't 11 meters a throw-in anyway that came with the compensatory 15 meter allocation a few years before?

Posts: 1123


« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2009, 01:42:51 PM »

"Wasn't 11 meters a throw-in anyway that came with the compensatory 15 meter allocation a few years before?"

It may have been.  Fifteen meters was allocated for CW in '52 and phone in '53.

I don't recall if 11m was part of the package FCC gave hams because of limitations imposed on 160m stemming from LORAN development.

May have been.

We lost it because it didn't share a useable harmonic relationship with the other bands, and the consequent lack of use.

Phil C. Sr.

Posts: 3

« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2009, 02:38:44 PM »

It looks to me as though the relationship between CB'ers and Ham operators is very different each side of the Atlantic.

I was a CB operator myself (there, I've said it) for quite a while, long before it was legal in the UK - most CB'ers our side of the ditch then were people who would probably work towards a ham ticket now the code requirement has gone... it all got messed up when it was legalised, strangely enough - mainly because the whole world and his uncle got a rig for Christmas and all arrived at once with no idea how to use it.
It was at that point I gave up radio for many years.
Marriage intervened, and I don't need to tell any of you how much of a drain on resources it is bringing up a family!
Fast forward to a few years ago, and I realised the urge to learn about radio had never died, it had been buried alive... I was still fascinated by propagation, by the idea of experimenting with aerials, and had never lost the 'thing' for building my own gear as I did then - I'd been building HiFi instead, but the smell of solder-smoke was still ingrained... that's why I decided that now I could afford it again, I'd do radio by the 'official' route and took my ticket.

Now the 'fad' for CB has died down over here, it's very quiet - I don't operate (legally or otherwise) on 11m, but I do listen from time to time... It's unusual to find more than a couple of channels from the 80 that are legal here occupied and I'm within 8 miles of two cities!
What I do hear is a lot more civilised than 20m during a weekend contest...

If there is a 'pita' around here, it's the two 'usual suspects' that hog the nearest repeater several hours most days to the exclusion of all others - holding a full license doesn't necessarily make somebody a good and considerate operator, however a modicum of common decency would be a good start, in my humble opinion...

73 Richard M0GDU

Posts: 4641

« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2009, 03:20:44 PM »

"Wasn't 11 meters a throw-in anyway that came with the compensatory 15 meter allocation a few years before?"

Not exactly.

AFAIK, what happened was this:

Before WW2, the US ham bands were 160, 80, 40, 20, 10, 5, 2-1/2 and 1-1/4 meters. All even harmonics of each other, although the bandwidth varied. IIRC, at one point 160 went from 1750 to 2050 kc., 20 meters was 14000 to 14400 and 10 meters was 28000 to 30000.

The War shut down amateur radio for the duration. One big wartime development was the first LORAN system, which occupied the prewar 160 meter band. Various military users took over the other ham bands below 18 Mc., mostly for communications.

WW2 ended rather suddenly at the end of the summer of 1945, and the military users couldn't just stop communicating because the shooting had stopped. Hams got the bands back in piecemeal fashion. It's a tribute to civilian/military/amateur cooperation and understanding that hams got back on the air so fast after Sept. 2 1945. Eventually almost all of the military users had moved out of the HF ham bands and we had almost all of them back.

But LORAN worked so well, and moving its frequency was so difficult, that we hams did not get 160 back at all for a couple of years. When we did get 160 back, it was in bits and pieces with a maze of daytime/nightime power and location limits.
160 had been a very popular ham band before the war for several reasons. One was the use of very simple equipment, another was that Class B and C hams could use 'phone on 160 but not on any HF band except 10 meters. It was a big loss to many prewar hams.

To compensate, FCC allowed hams to use a new band at 11 meters. We were secondary users; the primary users were Industrial, Scientific and Medical systems that were almost impossible for hams to disrupt. 11 took some of the load off of 10 meters and Class B and C hams could operate 'phone there.

11 was not harmonically related to the other bands, but surplus crystals were available and a VFO for 10 could be padded down to cover 11, so most hams on 10 could use 11 after a fashion.

Other countries followed the US lead, so one could work DX on 11. When the Novice license class was created in 1951, one of the original allocations was part of 11 meters.

In 1947 there was the first postwar International Radio Conference, held in Atlantic City, New Jersey. A lot of changes came out of that conference, but the big one for hams was a new band at 21 Mc. - 15 meters. But again, it took a while for the existing users to move out, and it wasn't until the early 1950s that US hams got access to 15 meters.

15 was in some ways a better band than 11, because it filled the gap between 10 and 20, and there weren't odd noises from diathermy and vacuum-forming machines. OTOH, some early TV manufacturers had the brilliant idea of using 21 Mc. IFs in their products....

Wartime developments and the 1947 conference had changed many things in radio. Before WW2, regulations only allocated frequencies up to 300 Mc., all above was "terra incognita". The 1947 conference added lots of new regulations, allocations and services, and moved others around.

One result of this was that, in 1948, FCC created a new "citizens band" radio service around 465 Mc. for model control and short-range voice communication between portables and mobiles. Nowadays this services is called GMRS/FRS, but its roots go back to 1948.

465 Mc. CB was mildly popular, but 1950s technology was such that a good rig for 465 Mc. wasn't small or cheap, and a small or cheap rig for 465 Mc. wasn't very good. So in 1958 the FCC took 11 meters away from hams and created the cb service we know today. There were proposals and comments and such before the actual change, but they fell on deaf ears at FCC. Since we were secondary users anyway, international regulations didn't matter.

FCC's biggest point was that by 1958 we had 15 meters plus some of 160, so the loss of 11 wasn't a big deal. In addition, in 1953 the FCC had given full operating privileges to all US hams except Novices and Technicians, so the loss of a "Class B phone band" wasn't a big deal either. Not to FCC, anyway.  

FCC chose 11 meters for two basic reasons:

1) They could reallocate it without violating or changing the 1947 treaty

2) 1950s technology could make decent-performing channelized rigs of reasonably small size and cost.

What FCC didn't realize was that lots of ordinary Americans would not only buy the new sets, but would soon start ignoring FCC rules when using them.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Posts: 1123


« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2009, 03:34:08 PM »

Thanks Jim!

A great historical account.  I wish I had your memory!

Phil C. Sr.

Posts: 7

« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2009, 08:51:26 PM »

I do not know that they hate me.  I cannot get any of them to communicate with me.

Posts: 10

« Reply #81 on: September 18, 2009, 05:33:24 PM »

These kind of threads sometimes shed light on peoples true feelings and personalities, and other times bring out "the mob mentality" in people, where they might say & do things more hostile than they ordinarily would do alone.

I've done a whole lot of reading on Eham to gauge the Ham microcosm here, and it's a broad and diverse cross-section of types and attitudes. Some (or many) of the threads degenerate into a "Jerry Springer" type show, but I suppose it's entertaining. Despite the "boxing ring" atmosphere, some good points for consideration are still made.

Similar to sometimes incendiary threads like this, people are attracted to accidents and other shock or gore. A train wreck, a plane crash . . the more terrible, the more people stare at their television, watching replays over and over. It’s human nature I guess.

Since others are speaking frankly, openly and honestly, so will I. In person and online I try and always be polite and courteous the best I can. I respond to insulting rude behavior in life ultimately how I see fit.

There seems to be a core group of "egg throwers" on BOTH sides. I guess the original video (which I believe I saw it featured a southern drawl CBer) was basically trying to "stir the stink pot" a little. Looks like it worked.

The old "11 Meters used to belong to us (and still should)" argument doesn't hold much water and makes those still rehashing it seem like only sore losers. The North American continent used to belong the Native American Indians too. It's all like beating a dead horse now and water under the bridge. Besides, when 11 Meters was "lost", didn't the Amateurs gain additional spectrum territory and privledge?

From what you read back then hardly anyone even used 10 or 11 Meters. Only later when something is gone was it so fondly remembered and longed for.

CB vs Ham
Ham vs CB
Code vs No Code
Yaesu vs Radio Shack
Hilberling vs Elecraft
Senior vs. Freshman
Have vs. have not
Mine is bigger or better than yours
On and on and on.

"When will you make an end of it ??" Pope Julius II to Michelangelo. Well when will Hams AND CBers make an end of it?  What is this,  the "immortal game"?  Hardly.

So if it's not Ham vs CB tonight, which is it tommorrow? These same old rivalry arguments listed above regularly rear their heads. Anyone else notice? Has anyone heard the snob who has an air of superiority because of what he can afford for equipment rather his actual operating skill and knowledge level?

You know, CB radio operators, collectors, experimenters and other unlicensed and licensed radio services read the opinions and information posted on forums such as this Eham one right here. From the bashing that goes on, it doesn't sound very encouraging to many to proceed any further and many times it sounds outright unwelcoming. As if they have a bug or contagious disease because they've used some other form of radio communications prior.

Listening to 75-80M at night is no different than much or most of CB 11M. The language, posturing, mentality, disputes et cetera. From reading the FCC warning notices, that isn't the only segment where CB-like behavior is occurring. Would I be the only one too that would suspect some stations of running much more than allowed legal limit? If you don't like 75M and what it's become, I guess then there's always the "off" switch right? Is that the answer?

And really, it would be nice if the Citizen's Band would return to a more lawful and innocent time, and if much of society would do the same. But it won't. The floodgates are open and it's too late to try and stuff the genie back into the bottle. It's a no-man's land area and probably will remain so. It's the difference of 150 years ago between living "back east" and choosing to live along the frontier. Don't go into "Indian Territory" and not expect to get shot with arrows.

I would venture to say that (frighteningly to some) that there is a whole core of 11 Meter operators that have as much or more technical skill level and sophistication as many licensed individuals in the Amateur segment. There are extremes on both sides but I can say I have seen some really ramshackle Ham shacks and wondered how they came to possess a license. From the way is looks sometimes, I think the wealth of shared knowledge and the internet has helped foster learning and I would expect the overall skill level to increase over there on "the Children's Band" as some like to put it. There are many Hams already operating there and I expect it to at some point be even more up and coming.

11M attracts many maverick types who would choose to use their radio equipment as they see fit and have the freedom of speech to operate as they deem interesting without having to be sent an OO card and deal with assumed superiors.

I see many of the complaints against the huge swath of CBers as actually legitimate though. They have much to learn. Some of you remember your Citizen Band start in radio life. Did you by the same token moan and lament agonizingly when a few neighborhood kids had walkie talkies? Did you look down on them and want them outlawed? Did you want to try and "take back" Channels 11 or 14? Or did you encourage them to take a step forward and introduce them to the next tier up and maybe show them how to properly operate? Just wondering.

So why not consider toning things down a little and accept that you don't or won't ever have much control over others. It's true the pen is mightier than the sword but there are some whose pens are running out of ink in their arguments. Many are just repeating "what they heard" and perpetuating myths and exaggerating reality.

Maybe one of the major networks could air a reality TV series based on a bunch of Hams forced to live in the same house side-by-side with a group of CBers.  Code and echo boxes both sharing the same table.

Ahh the action---the drama---the bliss. I'd watch it. It might be funny, thought provoking, maybe even a tear-jerker lol. Could end in violence though too maybe,  I'm not too sure. What does anyone think? Would you watch it?

Bishop to King 7.

Posts: 1123


« Reply #82 on: September 18, 2009, 05:55:23 PM »

Your commentary is better than your chess.

Lost your bishop.

Phil C. Sr.

Posts: 500

« Reply #83 on: September 18, 2009, 06:10:34 PM »

My question is why do CBer's think they need echo-mike's?

Posts: 74


« Reply #84 on: September 18, 2009, 09:56:32 PM »

I'd be interested to know -

In places where CB is UHF (Australia, et al)
do the hams look down on CB as much as they
do here in the US?

Not particularly related -

I've always found it interesting to read hams say
"I don't operate CB and don't own a CB" yet they
claim to be quite familiar with the "lawless
communications" going on at the 11m segment.

Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke

Posts: 10

« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2009, 01:09:06 AM »


Well hello and thank you for the complimentary view of my commentary, it's appreciated.  Thank you.

I had a good laugh on the Chess piece and appreciate your condolences on it's loss.  However being quite a player, it's not as likely it was my Bishop that was the one lost.  After initially reading the entire length of this thread,  and leaving an informed response,  I pronounced the end-move "Bishop to King 7" call for a good reason.  Maybe someone will recognize the reference.

In the interim I'll leave it to some of the others,  who've posted previously in this thread,  to take careful inventory of their own pieces.


Being fair and giving someone the benefit of the doubt is being unbiased and unassuming.  It is a good trait to have in a man.  I'll answer your question as if it were a serious one,  hopefully it is.

First,  CBers don't "need" an echo mike.  And by the way, either "mike" or "mic" is a proper informal abbreviation for microphone.  The reason I mention it is that some refer to the term "mike" in a derogatory fashion,  as if it is uncouth and only used by a "certain segment" of the radio population.  

To be helpful lets comment about your inquiry.  Although available,  the vast majority of "echo" found in the 11 Meter equipment arsenal is not from a microphone at all,  but from a setting on a particular transceiver or from an external accessory device.  Yes though there are a few microphones that do also have that feature, a small minority.  

Like many things mankind is involved with,  it is subject to misuse and abuse.  "In all things,  moderation" is forgotten largely by this generation as a whole.

The idea of "echo",  or really "reverberation",  is to provide a small amount of depth,  warmth and base to a voice signal.  It is a sound, solid practice done in most other forms of audio media as well.  The Citizen's Band radios that have this control are small units without the benefit of a complete external digital audio mixing board.  Some fixed 11M stations do use audio mixing and processing equipment,  but I doubt that's what you were referring to.  

But still,  would one criticize or question your local broadcast news studio desk for using reverberation?  They do you know.  Or a television or recording studio for using it?  The latter are less inclined to misuse it is all.  Any knowledgeable end user from any trade,  hobby or profession would know how to use the tools and features at their disposal.

It is operator error or ignorance that misuses this setting to the point where there is actual heard as  overlapping,  echoing voice signals.  Even among CBers,  overuse of it is a sign of a poor or novice operator,  what Hams would call a lid.  It is meant to be barely used,  either by professional or hobbyist alike,  to achieve the effect for which it is designed.


The question was made, in effect,  whether or not the same type of often negative/hostile attitudes or exchanges are made between other foreign forms of Citizen's Band radio operators and their resident Amateur operators.

That is an interesting point and one I would like to look to see answers to myself.  Very good observation and I believe the first time I've ever seen it queried anywhere,  and I'm very well read.  Is this "Us and Them" philosophy uniquely American,  or is it found in abundance elsewhere in the world?

Hmmmm. . .the point about some Ham inside "familiararity" with the other side,  also brings up a valid intrigue.  Perhaps there are many complaining Hams who are "closet CBers" by night,  perhaps even in the vein of Jeckle and Hyde?

In that humorous light,  it would be akin to the arson investigator or firefighter who professes to fight combustion,  all-the-while actually setting fires and committing arson.  Unfortunately this does happen too frequently in real life.

Judging from a few of the previous pages posts in this thread,  it would appear some are just repeating what others have told them,  without understanding fully what they are in fact repeating.  We all know how rumours get started.  And after a story is whispered in one ear,  then into the next,  on down the line---the final person receiving it gets an altered version of facts or events.



Xenophobia.  And it's a two-way street it would seem.

The very title of this thread:
"Why do CB'ers hate ham operators so much?"

It's either a purposefully inflammatory remark based on a single deleted Youtube video as proof,  or the poster has had another bad experience with a CBer that led him to believe "CBers hate Ham operators".

Let me ask the original author KG4WXP,  why do YOU think CBers hate Ham's?  Do you really believe that to be true?  Do you really base your belief on the odd rants of a lone video agitator?  If I were to watch a racist/supremacist rant in an online video about members of the opposite race,  am I (or you) to think that ALL members of his racial makeup feel as he does?  Or has it been your observation from actual 11M airtime that drew you to this conclusion?  The same could be asked of others who posted similar material.

To portray the "other side" as hatemongers,  loosely based on a minority of unruly antagonistic operators over there,  simply isn't right.  It's a "blanket" prejudicial statement.  Intentional or not,  that whole statement alone has leanings towards a form of bigotry.  And it creates further animosity without reasoning.  It goes for the same people in 11M who "claim" that Ham's hate all CB GMRS or other radio jurisdiction save their own.  It's way too stereotypical to say.  I've hardly known any group (except extremist in views) to agree with near single-mindedness on anything.  

I hope you,  or anyone else,  doesn't feel this is a railing accusation.  It's just that throughout this thread it hasn't been fairly addressed.

Best Regards

Posts: 4641

« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2009, 04:05:41 AM »

"Lost your bishop."


73 de Jim, N2EY

Posts: 1012

« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2009, 04:22:05 AM »

The so called "Superbowl" crowd and the "watergates" have given CB a bad name because of the power hungry idiots. After the FCC stopped issuing lisences and heavily enforcing rules and reg on 11 meters the band went to hell. Im glad that i am now a ham. I see things in a different light, and I see how idiotic CB ops can be.

Posts: 4641

« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2009, 04:46:23 AM »

"The old "11 Meters used to belong to us (and still should)" argument doesn't hold much water and makes those still rehashing it seem like only sore losers."


It's a fact that it used to belong to hams.

It's an opinion that it still should.

Imagine that there was a beautiful little park in your town where the kids would play ball, the old folks would take walks, families would have picnics, etc.

But then the government decided the little park wasn't used enough, and that there were enough other parks nearby that they didn't need that one.

So they closed the beautiful little park and sold the land to a developer, who put up a strip mall. And the strip mall wasn't exactly the best-maintained place in the county. Lots of enforcement actions and other troubles there. It got so the police would basically just try to contain the troubles to that location.

And every so often, a long-time resident would say "there used to be a nice little park there...I wish there still was.."

Is that person a sore loser?

IMHO, the bigger thing is that there are relatively few hams today who were hams back in 1958 when 11 was reallocated. There were only about 200,000 US hams then, and sadly some of them are no longer with us.

"The North American continent used to belong the Native American Indians too."

And look what happened to them!

"It's all like beating a dead horse now and water under the bridge."

Not to some Native Americans.

"Besides, when 11 Meters was "lost", didn't the Amateurs gain additional spectrum territory and privledge?"

NO. Not in any way. 11 meters was simply reassigned because FCC could.

What *did* happen was that, several years before, hams got 15 meters, so the FCC reasoned that it wouldn't work too much hardship on ham radio if they took away 11. What they didn't figure was that the number of US hams was growing rapidly in the 1950s.

However, they did what they did and they're not going to undo it. When have you EVER seen a government agency or politician admit a mistake?

"From what you read back then hardly anyone even used 10 or 11 Meters."

Not from what I read, or the hams I know! Both 10 and 11 were very popular. 10 was more popular, and a ham band by international treaty.

"Only later when something is gone was it so fondly remembered and longed for."

There was a considerable effort by hams to get FCC to change their mind. It failed.

"Has anyone heard the snob who has an air of superiority because of what he can afford for equipment rather his actual operating skill and knowledge level?"

Of course. But such folks exist in every activity. Consider the person whose driving skill and automotive knowledge does not match the fancy vehicles he owns and brags about.

"Listening to 75-80M at night is no different than much or most of CB 11M."

Is it? My experience is different.

btw, 75 and 80 meters are different bands, according to FCC. 75 is the 'phone/image part, 80 is the CW/data part. (FCC really thinks that way!)

"From reading the FCC warning notices, that isn't the only segment where CB-like behavior is occurring."

Consider how many bands and modes amateurs are allowed, and how the warning notices are concentrated on a few activities on a few frequencies. Also consider that the enforcement is almost always at the request of other hams.

Look at the enforcement letters and see how many there are for hams on the non-voice parts of the ham bands. Or on bands other than 75 phone, 20 phone, and 2 meter phone.

Ham radio is a lot of different activities, on a lot of different venues. Looking at one small part of one band, or one website (like eham) and saying "That's all there is to ham radio!" isn't accurate.

"suspect some stations of running much more than allowed legal limit?"

There are probably a few superpower amateur stations. But when you can run 1500 W *legally*, it takes a lot of RF to make a big difference in dBs.

"If you don't like 75M and what it's become, I guess then there's always the "off" switch right? Is that the answer?"

It's one answer. But can you really say that ALL of 75 meters, from 3.6 to 4.0 MHz, is the same?

Knight's knee to Rook's posterior.
Pawn's fist to King's solar plexus

73 de Jim, N2EY

Posts: 10

« Reply #89 on: September 19, 2009, 01:00:27 PM »


That is true in part,  and I'm unsure of the solution (and am not alone in that either).  

In all honesty,  those largest 11M stations operating on 27.025 aka "The Superbowl" or it's sister frequencies 27.085 and and 27.265 ("The Rose Bowl") are a minority of overall CB 11M operators.  Many on those specific channelized frequencies are running at least MINIMUM what Hams would deem full legal limit.  1500W would get you a seat in the back row.

But again, they are a minority of operators.  Many of those who call those frequencies "home",  view themselves as "elitists" towards the rest of the band and generally won't associate with anyone on any other channels period.

I'd wonder if requiring alternative licenses for 11M again would curb some behavior?  Not the older "joke" type, fill-out-the-form card either.  Testing,  fees,  inspection and all.  Paid for by those who actually want to participate.  A sizeable annual operating fee would provide a means to specifically enforce and police the 11M segment,  especially given increased priveledge.  A higher power class could optionally be available for only one or two channels to both pacify that minority and contain them,  possibly and hopefully in the center of their band.  There must be a solution somewhere.  I know that must seem like sacrilege to some or many.  But the problem isn't going away,  and continuing to ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist only deepens it.


Haha I did thoroughly enjoy reading this post this cool and crispy morning, sitting down with a nice warm mug of Starbucks French Roast and seeing your well thought out and well written comments.  Very well organized and very good points made.  Touche!  Oh oh,  or should I be thinking "En Garde!"? Ha ha lol all very well put.

Okay, let me not only play "the devil's advocate",  but at the very least reply in turn to the counterpoints made.  As threads such as this often do seem trial-like,  let me call my first witness to the stand ...

About the remark I made about 11M once being a Ham band and those wishing or "pining away" to regain "lost territory".  27mHZ wasn't a birthright.  Didn't Amateurs originally "gain" 11M anyway, as a form of "compensation" from the FCC for losing parts of 10M & 20M?  I thought they also gained 15M as part of the reallocation package?  And what about those companies and others already using 11M then?  Like poor Indians,  I'm sure they weren't happy either.  Spectrum is valuable space,  especially to commercial interests.  

True, many today were not around back then to even recall or remember the changeover from personal experience,  including myself.  If one does enough reading the experience of many using 11M back then,  it wasn't used very much and was annoyingly "shared" with other industrial,  scientific and medical organizations.  Many opted to try to either co-exist, or move next door to either 10M or 12M.

In the spirit of sharing,  perhaps Hams and CBers today could "share" 11 Meters?  Sorry couldn't resist.

The urban sprawl analogy is understood,  not only is the point well-made but I am actually living all around it in physical reality.  I do understand w.  But I would again cite the above paragraphs.  11M wasn't all that popular and was under-used if I read correctly,  it seems to be well documented.  And also why it was singled out and chosen.  Of all QSL cards from that era, 11M are some of the most rare it would seem.  There was a time when HF was deemed nearly "useless" real estate.  Hindsight.    

And the current 11M CB band is still affected by shared useage from everything from wireless keyboards, to door openers and a multitude of other commercial or industrial radio controlled devices.  Quite a bit of interference there as a result,  and because 27mHZ is traditionally the "low rent" side of town,  people there just have to "live with it".

I respect the opinion shared and if some feel they really still want 11M.  It's American and Democratic to have the freedom and desire to express one's hopes,  and even try to bring about a change in the way things are done and accomplished.  It's just that those who portray it as if their own house was just broken into and ransacked,  sometimes appear "unsportsmanlike" in the way they describe it.  As if a personal attack was suffered.  Both sides have valid points I guess and the discussion is good and argument still holds.

And yes haha I'd hope that we/you don't go the way of the Native Americans and concede "some" territory,  only to lose it all in the end.  But I think most in the CB arena are content within 27mHZ and a small minority along it's (currently illegal) bordering fringe frequencies.  Perhaps sit down at the discussion table and talk,  but read the fine print first before signing any "Peace Treaties" hehheh.

It won't do so much good to as I said earlier "pine away",  longing for something or someone long ago lost.  Should I continue to long for the girl I lost some time ago, with no real hope of ever getting her back?  Despite once having had her,  she's no longer with me and with someone else now,  permanently.  True story for me unfortunately.  And I felt that way for quite a while honestly,  but it wasn't healthy or helpful.  But it was how I felt.  Does anyone remember the story of "Echo and Narcissus"?  I do.  Don't go down that path,  there's nothing there.

I'm guessing that experiences vary and that the 75M guys are different in region to region possibly then.  Sorry I often write 75-80M out of habit, and the code chew operators are not far from it.  Living along the east coast in the colony states,  strong stations on 75M are quite common,  as well as the discord often heard.  The area is quite lively and sometimes strongly reminds me of an Amateur version of 11M.  I know I am not the only one who's made this observation and holds this view.  And really,  perhaps due to higher intelligence levels, Amateur Radio has held out so long.  But that type and style of behavior is typical of society-at-large in this day and age and is creeping into every facet of society,  including Amateur Radio.  Taking a simple drive,  watching television,  or turning on a radio will quickly remind us that those warm memories of a kinder, more gentler time are long gone.

"Knight's knee to Rook's posterior.
Pawn's fist to King's solar plexus"

Hehheh.  Well let's digress for a moment about these two rather "unorthodox" player moves.

The posterior is kind of a poor choice in actual physical altercations,  albeit it is one of "symbolic" importance perhaps and sometimes quite funny.  While not thinking much of it at the time,  I once found out the hard way that in some juridictions this is considered "assault".  

I was in a disagreement down south on a bridge with someone a small number of years ago.  To make a long story short, I ended up knocked the person's hat from their head,  and when he proceeded to bend over to pick it up I literally gave him a swift kick in the rear.  It seemed funny at the time.  It wasn't so funny later when I received a phone call from the Sheriff's department telling me to come down to the station.  They considered it "assault and battery" and wish I'd refrained.  It was a stupid thing to do.

The Solar Plexus is indeed an optimum strike point and often disabling to an opponent.  Very true,  as it's a nerve center.  But being a Chess player is only one area where I am well-practiced,  I spent several years training in Korean Tang Soo Do and have instinctively learned to protect my weak spots such as this one, a result of rigorous training.  

In reality I have.  I went to an ultra-orthodox martial arts school,  which are actually quite rare for the most part.  I hate to run the risk of sounding like a "Code vs No Code" guy (but my argument has merit), but the majority of martial arts schools today suffer from the same "let's give everyone who participates a trophy" mentality,  that our nation's schools also suffer from.  

Not all training academies are like that,  a small percentage are very very traditional.  I've gone on to work the floors of a popular nightclub as a lead bouncer and although not invincible,  it's served me very well.  In a job such as that,  the most effective way or means of dealing with individuals was always through talking and reasoning with them.  But in some cases,  not all,  an "alternate" means of "communication" was required.  In many cases though,  to be gentlemanly and safe,  most should probably stick to Chess.

Best Regards
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