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Author Topic: Why do CB'ers hate ham operators so much?  (Read 18472 times)
N2EY
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Posts: 3879




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« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2009, 06:55:10 PM »

OFFWORLD2019 writes: "I'd wonder if requiring alternative licenses for 11M again would curb some behavior? Not the older "joke" type, fill-out-the-form card either. Testing, fees, inspection and all. Paid for by those who actually want to participate."

A good idea, maybe, but what about those who don't want to participate?

"A sizeable annual operating fee would provide a means to specifically enforce and police the 11M segment, especially given increased priveledge."

The problem is, FCC doesn't work that way. Revenues don't go to enforcement; they go into the general fund.

"A higher power class could optionally be available for only one or two channels to both pacify that minority and contain them, possibly and hopefully in the center of their band."

But why would anyone who is now on 11 meters actually get a license to do what they are already doing without one? Licenses mean telling the Feds your real name, address, etc.; they mean rules and regulations, callsigns and limits. Limits on power, behavior, what you can say, RF exposure....

IOW, what you're proposing is pretty much the same as what ham radio has always been: A radio service for ordinary citizens, with certain rules and limits.

"There must be a solution somewhere."

It's simple: Enforce the existing rules - which FCC hasn't done for decades. Maybe their idea is what you said earlier: contain the "outlaws" in a "no man's land" and leave it alone.

But is there really a problem to be solved?

I wonder sometimes just how many active cb folks there really are left in the USA. Or if the number is growing or shrinking. Since there are no licenses, we don't really know.

I do know that, at least around here, cb antennas are extremely rare on cars and homes. Much rarer than amateur radio antennas. The few cb antennas I've seen around here are obviously leftovers from decades ago, with the coax long gone or a short piece flapping in the breeze. That didn't used to be the case; years ago there were cb antennas everywhere.

"Haha I did thoroughly enjoy reading this post this cool and crispy morning, sitting down with a nice warm mug of Starbucks French Roast and seeing your well thought out and well written comments."

Thanks! I am glad you were entertained.

"27mHZ wasn't a birthright."

Agreed! No frequency is a birthright for anyone. That includes the current users of 27 MHz.

"Didn't Amateurs originally "gain" 11M anyway, as a form of "compensation" from the FCC for losing parts of 10M & 20M? I thought they also gained 15M as part of the reallocation package?"

Nope.

11 was originally granted to hams after WW2 to partially compensate for the loss of 160 to LORAN. The losses at the top ends of 20 and 10 were minimal, and came after 11 was a ham band, not before. 15 was effectively a replacement for those losses.

"And what about those companies and others already using 11M then? Like poor Indians, I'm sure they weren't happy either."

They didn't lose a thing. Here's why:

11m was originally a band for Industrial, Scientific and Medical (ISM) uses. Vacuum form melters, induction heaters, cyclotron accelerators, diathermy machines and the like. The idea was to contain all those users of high-power RF in one band so that if they leaked, they wouldn't bother anybody. Hams were allowed there as secondary users, and had to put up with the occasional odd buzzing noise, but there was little chance that a ham would interfere with a multi-kilowatt RF vacuum-forming machine.

"Spectrum is valuable space, especially to commercial interests."

Yes it is - and that's one of the reasons cb was created. Not just commercial interests, the government wants a piece of that pie too.

The post-WW2 FCC was a real "activist" government agency. As part of the postwar regulations, every radio service got a "basis and purpose" section, and there were all sorts of ideas put into regulations, such as provisions for public and educational broadcasting and new land-mobile services.  

CB was one of those ideas. It was a creation of FCC - a government idea!  

"If one does enough reading the experience of many using 11M back then, it wasn't used very much and was annoyingly "shared" with other industrial, scientific and medical organizations."

Who is to say it wasn't used very much? The FCC sure isn't going to say they were wrong to reassign it...

"Many opted to try to either co-exist, or move next door to either 10M or 12M."

To 10 meters, yes. But 12 meters didn't become a ham band until 1979, more than 20 years after hams lost 11.

"In the spirit of sharing, perhaps Hams and CBers today could "share" 11 Meters?"

Sure! All the cb folks have to do is follow the FCC rules for their service.

"The urban sprawl analogy is understood, not only is the point well-made but I am actually living all around it in physical reality."

Well, there you have it.

Consider the amateur bands as a sort of "national parks of the air". Citizens can use them, but they can't use them for commercial purposes, nor can they do just anything they feel like.

"And also why it was singled out and chosen. Of all QSL cards from that era, 11M are some of the most rare it would seem."

It's really much simpler than that.

11 was reallocated by FCC in 1958 because they could. All of the other HF amateur bands were protected by international treaty, and FCC wasn't going to set a bad precedent by violating treaty provisions. Changing the treaty would take years and would run into all sorts of opposition.

But since 11m was an ISM band, and amateurs had been there for over a decade as secondary users without harmful interference to the primary users (how does one interfere with a diathermy machine, anyway?), it was easy and legal to kick hams off and let lower-power, antenna-restricted cbers on.

As it turned out, 27 MHz wasn't the best choice...

"There was a time when HF was deemed nearly "useless" real estate."

You mean before 1923, when amateurs led the way to the shortwaves.

And like so many things, the circle is almost complete. HF is again being considered less and less valuable by commercial and government interests. The antennas are too big, the bandwidth too limited, the propagation too unpredictable. Fiber optics are the way to communicate between fixed points; VHF/UHF cellular gateways to the fiber optic networks for mobiles and portables, and satellites for the few things left.

"And the current 11M CB band is still affected by shared useage from everything from wireless keyboards, to door openers and a multitude of other commercial or industrial radio controlled devices. Quite a bit of interference there as a result, and because 27mHZ is traditionally the "low rent" side of town, people there just have to "live with it"."

Heck, *licensed* services are plagued by such things!  

"I respect the opinion shared and if some feel they really still want 11M. It's American and Democratic to have the freedom and desire to express one's hopes, and even try to bring about a change in the way things are done and accomplished. It's just that those who portray it as if their own house was just broken into and ransacked, sometimes appear "unsportsmanlike" in the way they describe it. As if a personal attack was suffered."

It's more involved than that.

If cb folks kept to their frequencies, and didn't bother other services, I could see your point. But there have been numerous instances of cb users moving into the 10 and 12 meter amateur bands to get away from 11. Consider also the ham who is blamed for RFI/TVI from cb users, because the ham is in the FCC database and the cbers are not.

"And yes haha I'd hope that we/you don't go the way of the Native Americans and concede "some" territory, only to lose it all in the end."

I think the analogy isn't very strong. The Native Americans were driven off their land by a combination of factors:

First, they had little or no immunity to "white man's diseases", which were often mutations of domestic animal diseases. Native populations were often decimated or wiped out by diseases that the European immigrants had dealt with for centuries.

Second, the Native Americans were not unified the way the European immigrants were.

Third, the Native Americans did not have the military technology nor the remote, protected sources of supply and manpower that the European immigrants did.

"But I think most in the CB arena are content within 27mHZ and a small minority along it's (currently illegal) bordering fringe frequencies. Perhaps sit down at the discussion table and talk, but read the fine print first before signing any "Peace Treaties" hehheh."

Remember too that a treaty means limitations and rules. If someone is willing to give their personal info to the government, pass tests, get a license, use callsigns, follow regulations and all the rest, why not just get an amateur radio license? They're not hard to get and the equipment, mode and band choices are incredible.

"It won't do so much good to as I said earlier "pine away", longing for something or someone long ago lost. Should I continue to long for the girl I lost some time ago, with no real hope of ever getting her back? Despite once having had her, she's no longer with me and with someone else now, permanently."

Been there, done that. And no, pining for the girl, or the fjords, doesn't bring them back.

But what the smart and healthy person does is to learn from the loss and not repeat the mistakes that led to it.

"I'm guessing that experiences vary and that the 75M guys are different in region to region possibly then."

There are all sorts of folks. I was on 75 a while back and had some wonderful QSOs. No problems at all.

"Sorry I often write 75-80M out of habit, and the code chew operators are not far from it."

What are "code chew operators"?

"perhaps due to higher intelligence levels, Amateur Radio has held out so long. But that type and style of behavior is typical of society-at-large in this day and age and is creeping into every facet of society, including Amateur Radio. Taking a simple drive, watching television, or turning on a radio will quickly remind us that those warm memories of a kinder, more gentler time are long gone."

I disagree!

First off, I think the "kinder, more gentler time" wasn't as kind and gentle as it may be seem in retrospect.

I mean, when was it? Let's look at the past 100 years:

The 1910s had the First World War. Hardly kind or gentle.

The 1920s was the Jazz Age, Prohibition, gangsters, stock market fraud, anti-worker violence, etc. Kind? Gentle?

The 1930s brought the stock market crash, the Great Depression, the Dust Bowl, Hoovervilles, the rise of the Third Reich, Il Duce and warlord-ruled Japan. Kind and gentle? There's a great book by a guy named Petrosky about the building of the Hoover Dam; I thank the Almighty every day that I've never had to work at jobs like those men did. And died doing.  

The 1940s brought WW2 (yes, I know, it started in September 1939) and the beginning of the Cold War. Pretty tough times!

The 1950s had Korea, the Cold War, McCarthyism (real kind gentleman, that one!) Sputnik, and "duck and cover" - which actually meant "kiss your ...  goodbye".

The 1960s? Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam, counterculture, hippies, yippies, riots, a President, a Presidential candidate and Dr. King murdered - just for starters.

The 1970s had OPEC, Watergate, decaying cities, unemployment, inflation and the Iranian hostage crisis.

And those are just the details. I could keep going but I think the point is made.

"Knight's knee to Rook's posterior.
Pawn's fist to King's solar plexus"

I saw Blade Runner too. Also read National Lampoon.

"I hate to run the risk of sounding like a "Code vs No Code" guy (but my argument has merit), but the majority of martial arts schools today suffer from the same "let's give everyone who participates a trophy" mentality, that our nation's schools also suffer from."

Some of our nation's schools. Not all, and not the ones I know.

Consider that the code-no-code arguments had the same merits as yours. Here's why:

You consider certain standards to be necessary for those who wish to attain a particular level of recognition/accomplishment, such as a particular color of belt in a particular martial art.

"I've gone on to work the floors of a popular nightclub as a lead bouncer and although not invincible, it's served me very well. In a job such as that, the most effective way or means of dealing with individuals was always through talking and reasoning with them. But in some cases, not all, an "alternate" means of "communication" was required."

Of course.
 
But for the vast majority of martial-arts students in this country, it is 'only a hobby'. They will never be teachers, bodyguards, bouncers or other professionals in any martial art; they only do it for the exercise and enjoyment. So why should they have to meet arbitrary standards, pass old tests and follow old disciplines?

As a distance runner, I use a running analogy:

The standard marathon is a distance of 26 miles 385 yards. Almost anyone who doesn't have a serious medical condition can, with proper training, complete a marathon in a reasonable time, and call themselves a marathoner. But it's not easy training nor an easy race. I know, I've done two of them, and many more shorter distances.

The number of marathoners is limited by the demands of the distance and the training required just to finish, let alone finish fast for one's age group. But almost everyone can do it if they are willing to do the training. Most people aren't willing.

If the standard marathon distance were shortened to, say, 20 miles, participation would increase and more people could call themselves marathoners. Better yet, reduce the distance to, say, 5 miles and allow the use of new technologies such as rollerblades and scooters, and there would be LOTS more marathoners.

Of course some old heads would grumble and "whine" about how it used to be, back when a marathon was 26 miles 385 yards. But hey, they'd just be sore losers, right?

See the similarities?

73 de Jim, N2EY
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KC2KQB
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« Reply #91 on: September 20, 2009, 12:26:03 PM »

CB is for cowboys. But its fun to be a cowboy. I loved CB when I was a teenager and if it wasnt for CB I would never be a ham.

Last year I went and bought a CB base for my boat so that I could talk with the locals down there at the Jersey shore. Anyway, they all were idiots with their linears, taking the limiters out, illegal export radios and their perfect SWR mentalities.

There were so few people on the CB that it was scary. These CBers would talk on CB channel 19 in the hopes that a trucker would drive by and say hi. They are a dying breed. What I didnt like was the berating of others on the CB and calling people fags. The bad language was shocking to me comparing it to the times of the 1970s when I was a teenager and thought that had a big mouth myself. Today they blatenly curse and put each other down all day long. They are not afraid to make fun of the transiting trucker.

Now Im not sure that these people are really representing all of the CBers out there but I have a feeling that they are status quo of there CB generation because I have heard the same thing going on up here in northern NJ.

But what shocks me more then their behavior is the quitness of the CB channels; there is just no one on them anymore. Maybe we can steel them back for ham radio.
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OFFWORLD2019
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« Reply #92 on: September 20, 2009, 06:32:44 PM »

Regroup! Regroup!



The US Army has an old inner circle saying. "The Army NEVER retreats---we ADVANCE to the rear".


I'd hope you or anyone that might not have heard it before,  would find it both proud and humorous.






It is a hard subject, containing many deep-rooted feelings and underlying relevant side issues.



Some in either hobby might not see it as being hard at all. Like many problems in society, many would "armchair general" solutions rather quickly, and immediatly dispatch short answers.



I began to answer the previous post in a one-for-one format with quotes as you did N2EY, but we are nearing the point where the length of the article will resemble a treatise rather than a reply.




An example. Historically, it's already been proven early in the 20th century that prohibition with alcohol didn't work. It could have, maybe it would have, and still could work today. It could have worked entirely, as some would put it, if they had just "stepped up enforcement". But would it have really? Without becoming a Draconian state and adopting police state type measures? Even then...



Before a thought or reply would come that I even hint that rules and laws should then be repealed, because they are not obeyed, would not be my point. However in some cases, it is necessary to make allowance or revision to rules of law.



The status-quo measures currently in place and the unending complaints won't work for the 11M CB band issue and nearly everyone knows it deep down. And in my own personal opinion, to use a very well known phrase, "something's gotta give". Facing that prospect is not being a pessimist, it's being a realist. In a perfect world things would be at an ideal and very different.



As far as a potential single (and more stringent) 11M monoband license, and associated collected FCC fees with that licensing, it could work. Or maybe not. In regards to your point made that new funds given the FCC via a new priveledge Citizen's Band license couldn't be reinvested into 11M only enforcement? Well maybe something should change then, if that were to be enacted. Rules and laws change all the time, why not in this case? Because that's the way it works now, doesn't mean it would have to work that way then.




Why would someone get a license for something they already use without one? Well when firearms legislation was enacted, those with guns had a sudden compulsory itch to get a license and register. Did everyone simply continue to own firearms and ignore the law without registering? Some may have ignored the new laws, yet most complied.



Because of the illegal actions and crimes of a minority percentage of firearms owners, most of those weapons illegally owned & operated, should others declare and hold the opinion that "all gun owners" are (or will be) thieves and murderers?



By the same token the mentality and sterotype that most if not all 11M operators use illegal equipment, over use echo and other FX, are lazy, ignorant, stupid etc really offends and irks the others who purely and simply want to own use and collect some of the more well made 11M rigs. And why shouldn't those same individuals take offense? They have a right to be.



About changing the 11M Citizen's Band? N2EY your arguments are quite good for yourself or those others who would desire to have 27mHZ back. Well put, well written and well defended. I would most certainly tip my proverbial hat to you. I wonder (and not only am I reading, but am listening as well) how this could be realistically achieved? There seem to be some brilliant minds here, what would some realistically propose?



In regards to current measures and enforcement, often if a failed system has proven itself incapable of being effective, it is usually either revised or replaced. Or is allowed to continue to suffer the continied effects of entropy? The FCC has failed in dealing with CB time and time again, probably from it's inception. The problem often is either ideal but unrealistic solutions, or that too many would rather come up with reasons why something "can't be done". Rather than concentrate their energies and efforts on finding a real and honest solution and how "it can be done". Many would discourage themselves completely and simply "talk themselves out of doing anything" before they would even start.



Those who offer "one-liner" solutions to problems really shoot themselves in the foot and contribute nothing, in many cases anyway. An example is the same type rationale to solving crime would be to "just lock 'em all up". But of course it is much more complex than that.



The rules for Citizen's Band radio service are largely unchanged for well over a quarter century. A long long time. Much has changed since those 4W rules and 150-mile range were established. Some would even dare to say the rules are outdated.



Considering the current nearly 2010 state of technology and complexity of modern society, some would argue these rules for 27mHZ are long overdue for re-evaluation and change. They're antiquated and written for a whole other era far in the past, and they are. In 1975 there were (roughly) a little over 200 million people living in the United States. Today we are nearly at 350 million people. How is it that rules written for a simple transmitting radio way back then should not be re-examined today? Some should push for an entire overhaul and re-evalutation.



Perhaps change is in order, and if enough people speak up, they very well might get change. Will it be the change that many would hope or expect it to be? Or something else? Or something "worse" as some might describe it? It would depend if you were on the winning or losing end, and I'd be curious as to what this outcome would be.



Perhaps others are right and the Milton-like vision of pre-sin paradise is lost in the various former allocation incarnations of the radio spectrum. It's changed a number of times now, and I would at least think that each time there was some grumbling by a few who longed for yesterday. But never has one small segment of bandwidth like 11 Meters seen such an explosion of use (and subsequet misuse), popularity and interest, both negative and positive.



I own and have a high-end premium sound system in my car. Amplified, large 12-inch subwoofers the whole nine yards. I have it because I enjoy music the way it was meant to be heard, with faithful reproduction of sound quality. Do I blast or blare it? No certainly not. But am I to be judged right along with those who do use ghetto blaster systems at full tilt? Am I to be lumped together with those same types who rattle windows and use overdriven bass at all hours of the night when people are trying to sleep? I'm sure there is someone somewhere that would jump headfirst to pass judgement by just seeing my system, because I own it. Not because they witnessed me mis-using or abusing it, but because a bigotrous attitude poisoned their attitude and judgement. How fair is that? Nevermind I grew up listening to Haydn, Tchaichkovsky, Bach, Strauss, Stravinsky, Mozart, Beethoven and many others. And I'm glad I did. But yet again, I'd guess there's an excuse or reason someone would have as to why I would deserve being treated the same.




Again for modern 11M, to be real, and not ideal, and to nutshell it---"the cat is out of the bag". There is a point along a journey where it is further to go back then it is to continue on, and is literally called "the point of no return". For anyone getting their news second or third hand, there is enough talk now "over there" of wanting more bandwidth, legally. What if that were to happen? As a result I wouldn't think there would be any more encroachment on the surrounding Amateur segments, mainly because those areas would be relinquished. Rather than illegally operating out-of-band, I'd think that lobbying and the law is their best way to go to make circumstances change if that's what they want (more room).



Once again and I repeat, the "freebanders" and the CB "QRO" high power crowd (and other similar types) are a minority there. It's just they draw the most attention. It is offensive for Hams to use a broad brush and paint everyone using the band as all one and the same. The whole population should not be judged by those same very overly vocal Amateurs, because of a minority of those type operators found there. There are so many types of 11M ops and subgroups within them that many are vastly different from eachother. Part of the very reason they all want to get away from each other, they want a larger slice because they can't all co-exist between 26.965 and 27.405mHZ.



Many of those same "outlaw" types referred to are viewed as "pests" by the many others trying to conduct legitimate 11M QRP operation. There is enough infighting already over there because of bad and rude behavior displayed by those very same (unfairly symbolic) few. As a side comment, despite by gentleman's agreement, those who generally work 11M SSB frequencies are still at times interrupted by those who knowingly or unknowingly use AM on those channels. Again part of it is due to so many people using such little bandwidth, and hence their argument again for expansion. With the cycle about to start, if it truly does, the need for more room will become even more apparent to them.



And again, this recurring problem of a certain group percentage of Hams placing a label on whole sectors referring to "them" as a collective whole and along with descriptors such as "illegal" "criminal" etc. Why would anyone, anywhere, want to group an entire people with a stereotypical or bigotrous mindset, to essentially say "they all are a bunch of outlaws"? That view is entirely extremist and unacceptable in any modern civilized society. Expressed or implied, it seems to keep coming up from otherwise and seemingly intelligent men.



Xenophobia: Xenophobia is a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself.


Whether anyone has memorized the above defintion in grade school or beyond, it was worth repeating still. Someone earlier brought up "the Dunning-Kruger effect" and that is prevalent in more places than one. Xenophobia, superstition, fear, jealousy. They have been root causes for much needless conflict and bloodshed throughout the centuries. Needless conflict. From not understanding others who are different. And from some, simply not wanting to understand others who are different.



Because often the loudest, most rude or bothersome bunch gets the most attention, doesn't mean they represent the remaining silent majority. To be fair that could be said of fellow Hams too who appear to perpetuate this type of thinking and be unfairly vocal. But lumping everyone together within crude remarked and underhanded comments as I have seen in these type threads, sometimes doesn't exactly ring true and sounds entirely extremist in view. I am far from CB's "champion"--please--but needed to at the very least bring a few counter points and remarks to the table of discussion.



It's hard to argue for something that I don't have a determined allegiance to "defend". If I own a CB yet also hold a Ham license, the thread title would leave me to believe "I hate myself",  because I use both devices. I don't hate myself, at least the last time I checked. I can and will however refute a loaded-question titled thread as to why "CBers hate Hams?"



You know, this same parallel argument over there in Citizen's Band cicles doesn't hold water either. It comes up with enough frequency there also though. "Why do Hams hate CBers" go the thread titles...blah blah blah.  Then comes the bashing by the loudmouths, and it all has a habit of wrongly influencing impressionable people or those who want their own feelings validated. Please. Only trying to create or further animosity. Some people will not be happy unless they have a cause "to fight" for or a people "to fight against".



And DO "Hams hate CBers" supposedly in-turn? I don't. So I would then guess that because I don't hate all CBers, then it would be technically true that "not all" Hams hate CBers.  Much of all these arguments and rebuttals throughtout the radio forums are plays on words and hearsay. In truth, there are many CB types that I could honestly say I wouldn't be fond of. "Hate" is a precisely chosen and stong word. Why do some Hams hate other Hams? It's endless. Maybe pointless.



It is hard to estimate how many Citizen's Band users are currently in the United States. I'd imagine quite a number, if you only were to count those using them in the commercial transportation industry vehicles alone, not to mention the related businesses. Current industry estimates place the number at 3.5 million as federally licensed commercial drivers currently working/operating in the US.



I'd also imagine that a large percentage of them are using mobile radios, as most do, that's not very hard to surmise. The overwhelming majority being CB, and a much smaller percentage Ham. In addition to them, what about the unknown numbers of owners/users that would include the rest of the CB radio hobbyist population? All the other mobile users in their own peronal vehicles? And also those using them in their pleasure vehicles such as boats, hunting and other recreational vehicles etc? And also those who have dedicated 11M fixed-stations? Judging from sales alone, I think there are a myriad of brands, types,  qualities and actual physical numbers of radios out there.




Neither the entire electromagnetic spectrum as a whole, or any particular fraction thereof,  is anyone's "birthright". Nor did I make any claim that 27mHZ might be, to anyone. But it would at least appear that a certain small but very vocal percentage of radio "hobbyists" on both sides would regard it as such, given much of the writings.



Things change and virtually nothing lasts. I'm not complaining about the older losses and gains of spectrum because (unless it's contest day or unusually high activity) anytime I dial up or key in between the most common frequencies, I hear enough dead airspace unfortunately.  I don't feel we are at,  or near maximum capacity at all.  Some in the world would think maybe we even have some to spare. I'd want to preserve what we have, but others might think differently and beg to differ. And from on-air listening I could possibly see some validity to their argument. Perhaps others in higher places or office holders have noticed this phenomenon also, and would want change privelidges to consolidate things a bit, I don't know.  Attaining something is one thing,  keeping it is entirely another matter.



One thing is that one never knows when an entirely new use will be found for an already existing product or commodity. I would never rule out some organization or body at some point re-examining HF for possible new uses. They say never say never. This is why ARRL membership, clubs and other advocacy groups are important.



Last year I made acquaintence with someone who holds an FCC broadcasting license. He is the senior engineer for a major AM news station and a broadcasting licensee. Also holding an Amateur license. What he told me one day was both somewhat interesting, revealing and an eye opener for me.



He that many of those in the broadcast industry, that also hold Amateur licenses, don't openly discuss it or admit it among their peers. It would be regarded as a bad career move to associate with those who are essentially playing radio as it was put. The reason given was that it would hurt his credibility within the profession and he went on to say that far too many are lacking professional-grade skills, technical know-how and taking their "hobby" far too seriously. He went on to say that many in his field view Hams in the same light as Hams see CBers. It was obviosuly not his personal view but to me it was a sobering take on radio world reality.



I'd thought perhaps that there would be at least some form of mutual respect given, kind of in the vein that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Pretty narrowminded, and it changed my view of much in the whole radio field from top to bottom. Or is it an accurate depiction? I heard this one day less than two years ago and had never considered it this way before and never looked at the relationships between all the differnt slices of radio enthusiasts the same way again. Some would gladly welcome a continuation of the old Caste system I guess. I was left with the impression of it is how the MLB major leagues players would view the town little leagues.



Again to N2EY, as to the historical use of 11M and corrections made to my impression of that use and nature of the old 11M Ham band, they are taken fully and graciously with correction. I wrote what I understood to be true, and will independently study what I can of that particular area for personal interest and verification.



My allusion or comparisons to the Native American Indians with a possible state of radio were a nutshell attempt to keep things easily demonstrated, without an even further lengthy discourse. Of course I know the reasons were many that the Americas fell, I only hoped to make a quick analogy. Some understood the point of it, the spirit not the letter.



Honestly, I don't remember the "nicer more gentler time" I referred to, as I grew up in an era when broken homes, latchkey childeren, record crime and the crack cocaine epidemic were in full swing and the norm. I could go on to dissect that time and many other periods as well, and draw comparisons as well as highlight the differences. I am very familiar with historically documented accounts of man's inhumanity to man throughout the ages, world history being a personal favorite subject of mine. It just seems that many of the Ham old-timers say that society in general was nicer some time ago and so were the operators. One could certainly hold the view that Amateur or society never was, that people have always been rotten or inhumane towards one another. If you read along in many places, many Ham radio operators still claim the same thing in the threads, that operators and their behaviors now aren't the same now as they once used to be.



I am glad that you indeed saw Blade Runner and caught the indirect reference. I'm not such a fan of National Lampoon but that is a choice for entertainment perhaps that you enjoy. I'd much rather read Sky & Telescope and Astronomy Magazine. Yes I had used the Bishop to King 7 move combining point with jest, perhaps it was not appropriate or relevant. Until meeting you my friend, I felt that it was appropriate response to a number of the prior posts. To be fair you do play a good game.

Quote

The chess game between Tyrell and Sebastian is the conclusion of an informal game played between Adolf Anderssen and Lionel Kieseritzky, in London at Simpson's on the Strand in 1851. They were both maths teachers and well-known, successful chess players. However Kieseritzky (the loser) died a pauper just two years later. In 1855 Ernst Falkbeer came up with the name the "Immortal Game" and it has become one of the most famous chess games ever played.



Perhaps you did see humor in it, your following comment could be interpreted by some either way. I'd like to think, and chose to think you might have, and hope perhaps. Enjoying both Chess and science-fiction both, I chose to refer to the move. I always do and will from many other things from my interests. I have and will continue to thoroughly enjoy the Chess board. I use a beautiful antique carved wood set from Czechoslavakia as my personal favorite.



Until one of us is at the level of Deep Thought or Deep Blue, I'll continue to follow the thread from genuine interest.



BEST REGARDS
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HR2510
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« Reply #93 on: September 20, 2009, 07:41:59 PM »

As a very active ham AND a CB "maverick/cowboy" I think I have the best of both services.  No I don't run any power. No I don't run any ham radios on CB. But I do enjoy the QSO's that I have with my local SSB crowd, many of whom are hams.  The AM'rs tend to be an obnoxious bunch who are the typical CB'r that this thread is referring to.  I have met many people who enjoy CB immensely but have been turned off by the nose in the air attitude displayed by many hams toward them.  

It really is a shame. We're all radio hobbyists and most of us play radio to have fun.  

Can't we all just get along?  (OK I'm ducking the bricks being thrown at me!)
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HR2510
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« Reply #94 on: September 20, 2009, 07:42:07 PM »

As a very active ham AND a CB "maverick/cowboy" I think I have the best of both services.  No I don't run any power. No I don't run any ham radios on CB. But I do enjoy the QSO's that I have with my local SSB crowd, many of whom are hams.  The AM'rs tend to be an obnoxious bunch who are the typical CB'r that this thread is referring to.  I have met many people who enjoy CB immensely but have been turned off by the nose in the air attitude displayed by many hams toward them.  

It really is a shame. We're all radio hobbyists and most of us play radio to have fun.  

Can't we all just get along?  (OK I'm ducking the bricks being thrown at me!)
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HR2510
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« Reply #95 on: September 20, 2009, 07:58:32 PM »

As a very active ham AND a CB "maverick/cowboy" I think I have the best of both services.  No I don't run any power. No I don't run any ham radios on CB. But I do enjoy the QSO's that I have with my local SSB crowd, many of whom are hams.  The AM'rs tend to be an obnoxious bunch who are the typical CB'r that this thread is referring to.  I have met many people who enjoy CB immensely but have been turned off by the nose in the air attitude displayed by many hams toward them.  

It really is a shame. We're all radio hobbyists and most of us play radio to have fun.  

Can't we all just get along?  (OK I'm ducking the bricks being thrown at me!)
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HR2510
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« Reply #96 on: September 20, 2009, 08:00:56 PM »

As a very active ham AND a CB "maverick/cowboy" I think I have the best of both services. No I don't run any power. No I don't run any ham radios on CB. But I do enjoy the QSO's that I have with my local SSB crowd, many of whom are hams. The AM'rs tend to be an obnoxious bunch who are the typical CB'r that this thread is referring to. I have met many people who enjoy CB immensely but have been turned off by the nose in the air attitude displayed by many hams toward them.

It really is a shame. We're all radio hobbyists and most of us play radio to have fun.

Can't we all just get along? (OK I'm ducking the bricks being thrown at me!)
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N0ZNA
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« Reply #97 on: September 26, 2009, 06:40:30 AM »

I dont care what they do down there.I just wish they would quit splatering on 28.400 and 28.420....Ten mtrs is useless just south of St.Louis about 40 to 60 miles.They are running a kw or more on 27.355am.Around 3pm till 3am ...i gave up and am running 2 mtr fm...73s de JW
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KA3DNR
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« Reply #98 on: September 27, 2009, 02:48:11 PM »

Nice quote Mark:

Great minds discuss ideas;

Average minds discuss events;

Small minds discuss people.


--...MARK_N1LO...--


Regards,

Marc
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KA3DNR
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« Reply #99 on: September 27, 2009, 02:48:59 PM »

Hams have bigger...antennas.
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WD8T
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« Reply #100 on: September 27, 2009, 07:49:57 PM »

I like cb radio...that's how I became interested in Amateur radio...25+ years ago, 20wpm Extra in 1989.  I've owned...Icom 756 Pro II, Kenwood TS-2000, Yaesu FT-450 , Force 12-C3SS, tower, amps-a-plenty, contests, 75 meters...blah, blah, blah, blah...I get more enjoyment listening to channel 32 driving to work these days...less drama than K1MAN..oh well....moving along.
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K9FON
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« Reply #101 on: September 28, 2009, 04:34:26 PM »

Eh CB radio, Ham radio, FRS, ect, ect, all have strong points and bad points.  I for one gave up on CB when i got my tech ticket in 2004 and dont really have a desire to get back on CB even though i still keep a SSB mobile CB hooked up to a 5/8 groundplane antenna just to listen to the locals on CH 38 LSB.
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OFFWORLD2019
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« Reply #102 on: October 01, 2009, 02:05:37 AM »

KC2KQB:


CB is for "cowboys". I understand the analogy some and can agree in-part. Some also would likely take the next slim step and say it's more for "rednecks".  I've seen the many references on Eham to it and similar hillbilly descriptors. And it often offends the men of Southern heritage,  or just someone from anywhere with an education who chooses to participate in an unlicensed service. In my opinion, it does attract more adventureous types which often can be referred to as "a cowboy" in some circles I'd guess. It would be correct that it does attract "maverick" types. But often the association is made that equates this same type with stupidity of some sort.
 

Sometimes I think it is the difference in personality of someone going to a foreign country and not being willing to hardly step foot from the beaten path or out of the door of the Marriot while visiting, staying nice and safe.


On the other hand, there are some who find it exciting or exhillarating to go off the tourist map a little and see some of the lesser known areas or even the (gasp) bad side of town, or take a chance seeing a ruin or get bitten by a snake etc. Some will want more than the usual or typical.


Too bad your visit and 11 Meter "DXpedition" to the Jersey Shore was ruined by: "they all were idiots with their linears, taking the limiters out, illegal export radios and their perfect SWR mentalities." Think about that a minute. To any reader your description would sound pretty concrete, almost as if you had the chance to inspect their equipment or made use of a spectrum analyzer while not enjoying your visit. Perhaps you're right and they were all idiots, yet a pretty broad statement. Or, maybe the base station you chose was of poor design or an inferior model with poor rejection. Maybe it was due to your actual installation. It's quite possible.


Not many use "Channel 19" in that area anyway, they are mainly centered around 27.325mHZ and 27.345mHZ, that area's own "home channels". Although I don't live there, I often visit the coastal waterfront along the entire central & southern length along throughout the summers because of it's close proximity to Philadelphia and New York, and am very familiar with it as it's a popular marine and resort area for me. You might find interesting, as a side note, aside from unlicensed CBers, there are a number of actual licensed Hams in the 1kW class and above, a few I know for sure are occasionally using 10kW on 11M during some evenings. That's a fact.


The language is representative of the times, both in public and in private. It's not for the kids to listen by any means, in the worst cases. Why would anyone be "shocked" by foul language in this day and age? I can honestly say I do not condone it by any means and keep my own language clean. But this band, and really any other type of uncensored media, is no different in today's world. CB today is not the hokey "10-4 good buddy" of the time you might have been more familiar with and refer to. And like N2EY points out, people have always been hateful and hostile towards eachother. Although not a drinker, I'd liken CB radio to going out for a night at a bar. You might have some interesting conversation and fun, or you might get drunk, beat up and thrown out the back door. In the end simply enter at your own risk.


I'm sure some along the coast there some use linear amplifiers and that's true. But consider these two things about your negative experience. One, you are in an area where a few MAJOR linear amplifier manufacturers are calling it home. That alone almost guarantees there will be many high power 11M stations, undoubtedly. The factions that each follow their preferred makers/designers do not like eachother nor get along out of "brand loyaltly", akin to sports fans with their own favorite rival teams. Not my idea, just the way it is.


Secondly, to everyone who's ever worked at/near QRP or can understandingly identify with it, how would your band of choice "be perceived" if you were surrounded by a good number of high power stations? Your miniscule few-watt signal being drown out by huge stations with hundreds of times the power levels you are using? Using a stock CB is essentially 11M QRP.  Yet you go and make a decision about and describe the area based on the loudest and most obnoxious stations you could hear,  mostly because that was all you could hear I'd imagine.


So if you were using a QRP or a very low 3-4W rig, to a listener out in the distance, no one would even hear your weak little faint signal. All they would hear would be the big stations ragchewing or running their mouths or whatever else people should choose to talk about. To someone who didn't know and was simply ignorant of that fact, they would tune in and think "boy, those guys are all foul mouthed" etc or whatever happened to be occurring. Well what about all the stations THAT YOU DIDN'T HEAR, because you simply COULDN'T? Limited range combined with low wattage means you won't hear much beyond a small radius and you should know that but wouldn't from the statements made. Welcome back to using low power HF radio.


The "CB is dead" proclaimers and their idea is mostly a false and fanciful myth, being constantly perpetuated by many wishful thinkers. It's much more alive than 10M will ever be, again hence the 11M argument for expansion (manifest destiny?).  We keep reading in some places where Amateur Radio is not exactly thriving,  some would say gradually dying and lowering standards to benefit from short-term infusion.  It better not die,  I have a small fortune invested in radio equipment and earned every single dollar the hard way to pay for it.


I wonder if it did die,  how many would secretly have a small station still?  Or would you turn in your radios to be destroyed,  if they were made somehow illegal?  Knowing the radio guys that I do,  I know some would continue to operate whether a worldwide ban or not.  


Well in some areas maybe,  11M might well be quiet, I don't know. But not along areas of any population density. And people have things to do, they are not on 24/7 and use will depend on many other circumstances including time of day and week etc. It's hard to take a "sampling" of activity and make an accurate and true estimation.


As a rebuttal to the "taking back of 11M"?  Perhaps not,  as it is already well-occupied and ultimately would spell the end of an uneasy truce. Not enough is being done on 10M or 12M really to justify the need for it.  Knowing human nature and history, I think it would probably be a disaster and would lead to all sorts of malicious airwave behavior from radicals on both sides.  


In some areas 11M might well be quiet, I don't know. But not along areas of any population density. And people have things to do, they are not on 24/7 and use will depend on many other circumstances including time of day and week etc. It's hard to take a "sampling" of activity and make an accurate and true estimation.  It's akin to sending a probe to a planet and looking around for a day or two,  in a relatively small area and announcing----there's "no life" found there.







HR2510:

Good God man, please don't repeatedly call CQ as many times as you hit the send button.

You may have a point to a degree, that there are more "well behaved" 11M SSB operators than AM mode ones. But look at how few SSB operators there are compared to AM operators.

Given the fact that the complete overwhelming majority of guys are on AM, proportionately as a result there would also be more troublemakers or poor operators found there on AM. "Relatively", there could be equal amounts of lids but I don't have statistics on that at all, just a casual observation.

And for anyone possibly interested, yes there are MANY licensed Amateurs on 11M these days, coming down to loosen their shirt collars a little and relax. Many utilize sideband yet some operate AM by choice. Some Hams will meet CBers halfway (gasp) in the so-called "freebands". Not condoning it or condemning it, just a truthful observation.



N0ZNA:

Are you sure it's "them" of the CB band. And who exactly are they I wonder, and what are the fundamental frequencies they are "splattering" from? Are those 1kW stations operating at 27.355mHZ the ones causing your interference as you described it? I'd wonder where it truly originates from.

If it were the "usual suspects" Citizen's Band operators, the fundamental of 27mHZ I believe could produce both odd and even order harmonics that would show up at generally predictable intervals, for the most part. For instance most commonly is near 56mHZ or 81mHZ if I am not mistaken. And there could be mixing exceptions, I know. To be fair, perhaps the splatter is coming from 10M operators, either legally licensed or illegally operated and is the result of nearby operation of those stations and excessive bandwidth. Or perhaps your own radio system is suffering from front-end overload from a nearby powerful transmitting station. There could be other possibilities aside those running rigs between 26.965mHZ and 27.405mHZ.




"PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN" ?:

One reason I post this is due to the many inconsistencies in details I've noticed in other discussions on this topic elsewhere:



"Freeband DX International". Are those who run illegal HF pirate stations, such as this one subcategory, lumped together and blamed right along with "CBers"? Are they one and the same?


Sure, some may appear "CB-like" to a degree at least, unless you look and listen. To be fair, there are nearly as many "types" of CB and "other-category" operators as there are Amateur preferences. Those Freeband DX International crowd guys normally don't associate with the so-called "normal" 11M CB band people. Some use illegally modified CB radios, CB radios designed for foreign export ("export radios") and still many others are using quality Amateur equipment.  I'd guess the latter in more cases than not.


Freeband or CB? Whichever you would like to think of them as, they are still very different types. Gone are the name "handles" or the "10 codes" or the "sound effects" and the "CB jargon" and other behavior that is (unfortunately) more common in the actual legitimate 11M portion. Each view the other as entirely different and typically don't associate with one another, although there are some cross-over types.



Generally, this group is worldwide and operates between 27.415mHZ and 27.995mHZ. The "International Calling Frequency" is the (in)famous 27.555mHZ. For some odd reason, this whole culture is not limited to North America. Despite the fact that "CB" is very different in Europe and other parts of the world, using different radios, frequencies and modes. An alternate popular hangout is called "The Underground" located at 26.835mHZ. This phenomenon is distantly related to the Citizen's Band, or even born out of it possibly,  but again these people are not entirely one and the same.



In my experience, through observation, a sizeable segment of the actual 11M segment operators can't properly operate a decent 11M station nor tune a resonant antenna. Nevermind retune one,  or have multiple antennas for working other wavelength frequencies. Would some of these many novice people be able to get a working station up-to-par for use in the areas of the 10M or 12M bands? Hardly, if they can barely handle 11M. At the very least, someone wanting to do this would have to utilize an antenna tuner and probably operate at a reduced power output level, not exactly "great" for DX on those bands, but I guess still workable.


I believe, not only from common sense but from actual listening airtime, that many who are out-of-band in the described areas not only are running increased power levels, but are also fairly knowledgable and seasoned operators. Again I'd suspect a sizeable percentage of them hold Amateur licenses. Others may just be plain fringe counter-culture radio operators with know-how. From what I read, the jamming going on that is alleged to be from Ham operators is also as illegal, or "nearly" as illegal. The "one-upmanship" going on there is only going to start a cold war types escalation that will surely spill into onto other popular frequencies, likely retaliatory in nature. I can't say for sure either way, but none of the talk and posturing sounds "good".



KA3DNR and N1LO:


On the subject of the quote from First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt, it's an interesting philosophy to have, at times. I think it may be true in some cases, and surely not in others. I think that some in this thread are indeed discussing people, some are discussing (wrongly) an "entire people" in a stereotypical fashion, and others yet are in fact discussing a greater idea or principle. The thread topic of "Cbers hating Hams" is bluntly wrong, and maybe her quoted phrase could apply. But at the same time the thread brings up underlying currents common, even "popular", with many Amateur hobbyists. The age-old tactic of demonizing the other side. Us and them.



KA3DNR:


Surely you jest. I hope so at least, and if so it's amusing but brings up a good point. How many times have I seen or heard the grumbling that goes on when a Ham spots "one of those" tall, ugly vertical antennas along a rooftop nearby. True most 11M antennas are between 18-FT and 24-FT tall, plus masting etc.

Then to see the another side, yes there are some mighty sized Amateur antennas. But not all Hams have them, and many are simply the size of "a little rubber duck" heh on their HT. My own dedicated 11M antenna is quite tall for a residential area,  four stories to the feedpoint.  I've seen some of the impressive Amateur superstations, but this is not the norm by far. And rightfully though, there are indeed some highly complex 11M CB superstations out there, most concentrating and focusing on 27.025mHZ. Not only with elaborate antenna structures, but with wattage that in some cases rival that of any AM Broadcast station. "Some" Hams have bigger antennas, would be more proper.


Some would argue the psychological principle of "overcompensating". It's often found where someone has an inadequacy or shortcoming, so they overcompensate for it "externally".


For instance and example in this type of case, the "little guy" goes out and buys a monster 4x4 truck, to sit bigger and higher in traffic, to try and make himself appear larger than life. Or howabout perhaps with "a bigger antenna" ?



BEST REGARDS
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N0ZNA
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« Reply #103 on: October 24, 2009, 09:04:47 AM »

To OFFWORLD,it is from 27.355am I have a radio with 11allmode and have heard them talking and heard the splatter on 28.400usb...and used a couple of radios on 28.400usb to check it.73s de JW
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WB4TJH
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« Reply #104 on: April 14, 2010, 08:27:22 PM »

Let's' all be GLAD there is still CB radio...it keeps mental midget idiots like that guy out of the ham radio ranks.
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