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Author Topic: ARRL Concession  (Read 52983 times)
KD0SFY
Member

Posts: 289




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« Reply #120 on: August 03, 2014, 07:56:25 PM »

I already talked to the person who is the driver behind the change and posted what he stated.  And since the only thing that is really changing is the term EmComm is going away, it would have zero affect on liability.  The ARRL is continuing to say "emergency communication" when appropriate, using the term "public service" when it is appropriate, and there is no change to ARES  at all.  

So, how exactly do you think that insulates the ARRL from any liability issues?  

And please don't confuse the CR with the ARRL.  


It would only be my speculation.  About as good as your assurance that the change has nothing to do with liability.

For starters, from the quoted response, you didn't ask that direct question.  Or, if you did, he gave you a politician's response.  I read the quote several times and came away with what sounded like a circular argument.  Somehow it was all to resolve the divisiveness of all who bear the EmComm moniker?  (Hint: like others have said, it's not the name, but the behavior that's divisive)

For starters, he didn't say that they would change EmComm Level 1, 2, and 3 course titles.  Do those still exist?  And, if I've taken them all, gained my ARRL EmComm blessings, and caused some damage to someone or something, I would think any "C" lawyer would pursue the path of "just where did you get the skills, knowledge and abilities to have done this?"

CR? You lost me.

'Nuff said.

IOW, you've got nothing except your fevered imagination whereas the reasons were given both in the QST article and in the letter I posted.

'Nuff said. 
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W6EM
Member

Posts: 791




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« Reply #121 on: August 03, 2014, 08:40:45 PM »

I already talked to the person who is the driver behind the change and posted what he stated.  And since the only thing that is really changing is the term EmComm is going away, it would have zero affect on liability.  The ARRL is continuing to say "emergency communication" when appropriate, using the term "public service" when it is appropriate, and there is no change to ARES  at all.  

So, how exactly do you think that insulates the ARRL from any liability issues?  

And please don't confuse the CR with the ARRL.  


It would only be my speculation.  About as good as your assurance that the change has nothing to do with liability.

For starters, from the quoted response, you didn't ask that direct question.  Or, if you did, he gave you a politician's response.  I read the quote several times and came away with what sounded like a circular argument.  Somehow it was all to resolve the divisiveness of all who bear the EmComm moniker?  (Hint: like others have said, it's not the name, but the behavior that's divisive)

For starters, he didn't say that they would change EmComm Level 1, 2, and 3 course titles.  Do those still exist?  And, if I've taken them all, gained my ARRL EmComm blessings, and caused some damage to someone or something, I would think any "C" lawyer would pursue the path of "just where did you get the skills, knowledge and abilities to have done this?"

CR? You lost me.

'Nuff said.

IOW, you've got nothing except your fevered imagination whereas the reasons were given both in the QST article and in the letter I posted.

'Nuff said. 
You have a habit of one-liner, incomplete responses and here you go again.  Liability is still up in the air.
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KD0SFY
Member

Posts: 289




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« Reply #122 on: August 03, 2014, 09:10:29 PM »

Keep on flappin them gums. 
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N8AUC
Member

Posts: 79




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« Reply #123 on: August 04, 2014, 08:56:19 AM »

Has anyone considered that CERT (community emergency response team) has a similar name and purpose?  Is FEMA concerned about CERT volunteer liability?  Does CERT training or certification provide liability protection for volunteers?

Not sure what "CR" is.

The general argument that anyone can sue anyone for anything, is absolutely true.
And if you're really afraid of that, then you shouldn't volunteer. Ever.
For that matter, don't drive a car, don't go to a movie, don't go to a restaurant and order dinner, and definitely don't go shopping.
In fact, you should probably not ever get out of bed in the morning either.
If you are that paralyzed by the fear of being sued, you're probably not going to be very helpful or useful anyways. So just stay home.

With that being said, your liability protection in ARES is about what it is for a CERT member. Pretty much zero.
Generally, you're on your own with regards to liability protection.

But, comparing CERT with ARES is a little bit like comparing apples and oranges.
CERT does things that ARES does not do.
Some of the things they do, could incur a lot more liability than providing communications and message handling.
For instance, at our Airport Mass Casualty Drills, they serve as litter bearers.
If the person on the litter already has a black tag, then there's very little liability because they're already dead..
But if they're yellow, or red, there could be a lot of liability. Especially if a CERT volunteer drops a litter containing an injured, but still alive victim.

Part of the reason for the ARES training, is to help minimize any liability on the part of the volunteer.
All ARES does, is provide communications and message handling where no other source of service exists.
During public service events, we become the eyes and ears of the event. Basically we provide real time situational awareness during an event.
Helping with anything beyond that, is dependent on what additional non-ARES training a volunteer possesses.
For instance, if someone asks an ARES volunteer to direct vehicle traffic, and they're not trained to do it, they are expected to decline the assignment.
However, if that ARES volunteer has training in how to do that, because maybe they're a retired LEO, then they are free to accept the assignment and help as requested.

Like I said earlier, if you're doing what you're supposed to, not doing what you're not supposed to do, and following your training, you're probably going to be OK.
It's just like my mother used to say, "use your head for something besides a hat rack"!

BOO! There's a lawyer! Shocked

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KB8VUL
Member

Posts: 110




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« Reply #124 on: September 11, 2014, 08:36:19 PM »

I think the direction of liability is a bit twisted here.  The real liability with ARES is it's members NOT maintaining a safe distance from anything other than a radio.  Talking on a radio creates very little or no actual situation that a liability can exist.  Now, lets drag a bunch of hams down to Boston for the marathon after the first bomb went off.  Then they get there and the second one goes.  Now all of a sudden you have a bunch of civilian hams hurt and killed because of what?  Or make matters worse.  One inquisitive ham walks over and picks up a device and sets it off.  He's in his self issued vest and donning his ARES badge.  The public safety types see the vest and badge and dont pay him much mind because he "LOOKS" official.  So now we have liability.  The world has changed.  People attack us in different ways, and mean to cause harm to not only the initial group but those that respond to assist as well.  For public safety personnel it's part of their job description, hence the firemen do run into the burning building.  For the volunteer ARES members who's responsible for funding their medical care?  Their insurance... I SERIOUSLY doubt that the insurance company is gonna pay any claim generated by the insured actively taking part in dangerous activities, and yes, if you grab the go kit because you were activated, you are now partaking in a dangerous activity as an untrained laymen, with no real business being there.  So then who gets sued when you get hurt?  The state, county or local town?  Nope they aren't liable in most states.  The ARES group?  Yeah to some extent that they have anything to sue for.  The board of trustees of the ARES groups... yeah they are getting it for sure.  And lastly the league.  It's their logo on your badge, trailer, SUV and whatever else they pick up of find in the investigation photos.   
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KK4GGL
Member

Posts: 280




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« Reply #125 on: September 11, 2014, 08:41:18 PM »

KB8VUL you really are a card ... and you seem to like to convince us you have absolutely no knowledge of disaster management or incident command.
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73,
Rick KK4GGL
KD0SFY
Member

Posts: 289




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« Reply #126 on: September 12, 2014, 01:36:51 AM »

Once again:  Nothing about ARES is changing.  The name, organization, mission, everything stays the same regarding ARES. 
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KD6NIG
Member

Posts: 23




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« Reply #127 on: Yesterday at 10:45:33 AM »

The reason I think the ARRL is "refocusing" is the simple fact that if you don't count "test" or "training" communications, less than 1% of Ham Radio is emergency communications.

Is EC going away?  No.  Its still there and will be there when we need it when a situation arises.

But preaching EC as the primary goal of AR when only 1% of the traffic or less is actually....a dis-service to the hobby itself.  Its one aspect of it.  I know that even though I no longer belong to any formal group, I'm "emergency ready" by having battery operated stations-on foot, in my vehicle, and at home (I run off of batteries).  In the event of a disaster, if my family is safe and secure and my job doesn't require my presence, I'd answer the call of a local group if they requested my assistance, and I think most of us would agree with my sentiment.

But making it seem like HR's primary focus is EC, its probably keeping people out of it.  Everyone takes up a hobby for different reasons...there are a lot of people who would like HR simply for the club aspect of it, or to have another communication option.  They don't want to nor want to be prepared to be EC's when the time comes, and that is fine.  I think the ARRL was painting a picture that every ham in the hobby would be willing to EC if the time came, and that is not true.

Its simply one aspect of many that some choose to pursue, and some don't, either because of the way the local group is organized, or they don't have the time or resources to commit to whatever requirements said group has, or....they simply aren't interested.

Painting it and screaming EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS as a primary aspect of it....was basically a lie.  Its an aspect, but has never been a primary goal of the majority of operators out there.  We have operators who go from the casual...they don't even own a radio, or maybe they toss a Baofeang in their backpack and check into the weekly net....to guys with well over 100k invested in multiple towers, radios, amplifiers, and can flip a few switches and talk to anyone in the world in seconds.  Yet the guy with the 100k station may simply not want to relay traffic or be involved if some disaster hits. 

I think a more simple "communications" aspect will benefit the hobby in the long run.  We could debate about contests where you grab a quick 59 as being communication, but we'll leave that for some other day and topic....  But when it comes down to it, communications is something the majority of Ham Radio operators do on a regular basis.  Emergency communications?  Well, I've been in the hobby 22+ years.  I've used it all of twice in that realm-and both times were because HR could make the contact and my cell phone couldn't.  I'm going to use the best resource in an emergency to make the contact, not reach for the trusty HT when I have 911 available with two keypresses in my pocket.

That is the reality, and although I'm not a ARRL member, its good to see that as the "national representative" they are painting the hobby more realistically.  We're about communications.  EC is just one aspect of it.
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