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Author Topic: Expired License  (Read 1157 times)
N1DLD
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Posts: 2




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« on: June 09, 2003, 02:56:36 PM »

Hi,
I've been out of ham radio for a number of years and want to start up again - without too much hassel. In 1984 I received a Technician license and then in 1985 I upgraded to an Advanced license. The license expired in 1995 and I didnt renew. I cant seem to get a staight answer from my local VECs or the ARRL as to whether I can be grandfathered in as a General or if I have to go through the whole testing procedure. Any ideas or should I just sell off my gear?
Thanks
Dana
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KC8AXJ
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Posts: 303




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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2003, 12:12:19 AM »

Sorry to say but you are now no different that someone who NEVER had a licence. You have to start over.
But it would be good to have you back !!
73 and good luck !

Steve
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K1ZC
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Posts: 113




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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2003, 08:21:29 AM »

The rules are pretty clear - you should have enough grandfather credit for a General license.  The Code of Federal Regulations reads as follows (Part 97.505):

(a)  The administering VEs must give credit as specified below to an examinee holding any of the following license grants or license documents:
.
(paragraphs 1-7 omitted)
.
(Cool An expired FCC-issued Technician Class operator license document granted before March 21, 1987: Element 3.

(9) An expired or unexpired FCC-issued Technician Class operator license document granted before February 14, 1991: Element 1.

(b) No examination credit, except as herein provided, shall be allowed on the basis of holding or having held any other license grant or document.

So, if you can demonstrate that you had that Tech license from the early 1980's you can get element 1 and 3 credit even though the license itself is expired.

While it seems silly, another part of the regulations (at 97.501) reads that you must have credit for element 1,2, and 3 to get a General license.  So, I think that you still have to take the first 35 question Tech test to get element 2 since you do not appear to have grandfather credit for that.  However, once you pass you immediately qualify for a General license.  I hope that helps.
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W3HF
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2003, 08:22:55 AM »

Dana -

The comments made by KC8AXJ are incorrect. An old technician license issued prior to March 1987, even an expired one, can be used for credit towards Elements 1 (the code test) and 3 (the General written test). You can't be "grandfathered" until you pass the current Technician written test (element 2), but once you do you will receive credit for the other two elements and will be issued a new General license.

Of course, you will need proof of having the Tech license back then. A copy of your old license is enough, or even a copy of a callbook listing will do. (Contact me directly if you need help with this.)

And unfortunately, your old Advanced license is "worthless" towards element credit. It doesn't make sense, but those are the FCC rules.

For those interested in reviewing the FCC rules on the subject, I would refer you to 97.505(a), specifically items (Cool and (9). An ARRL web page that explains it all can be found at:

http://www.arrl.org/arrlvec/grandfather.html

Steve
W3HF
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W3HF
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2003, 08:37:40 AM »

Here's a followup, based on K1ZC's comments.

Yes, it does seem a little silly, but those are the rules now. And I think there's a reasonable explanation, though it's a bit complicated.

The first part is that the FCC has made the 5 wpm code test a LIFETIME credit. So anyone who has EVER passed a 5 wpm code test can get credit towards any license. This means that anyone who ever held either a Novice or Tech Plus license, or someone who had a Technician prior to 14 Feb 91 gets the credit. That's why Dana's old Tech license from 1984 is good for Element 1. One strange part here is that it ONLY a 5 wpm test in the past can be applied towards the new CW requirements. If Dana had started with a General license in 1984, with its 13 wpm code test, there would be no credit. (The ARRL pointed out this apparent inequity when the rules were proposed, and their comments were dismissed without action.)

The second part is the credit for Element 3 for pre-1987 Techs. This is based on the fact that prior to March 1987, the written test was the same for both Technician and General. The only difference in the license requirements was the 13 wpm code test for General. Earlier versions of the FCC rules (pre-2000) had the clauses that said that someone with a pre-1987 Tech license would receive credit for the General written test, and needed only to pass the code test. But the clause also stated that the person had to hold an unexpired license--there would be no credit if you had let your license lapse. (That's why KC8AXJ made the statement he did. Those were the rules prior to April 2000.)

But license restructuring in April 2000 made many changes, including the permanent credit for 5 wpm CW. That meant they now had clauses that gave credit for expired licenses. And I believe they ended up unintentionally granting Element 3 credit to expired Techs, when all they wanted to do was continue granting credit to continually-licensed Techs. Even though the wording was immediately questioned, the FCC chose to leave it as it was, and agreed that this meant that even expired Techs get credit.

The net result is that Dana only needs to pass Element 2, as K1ZC said. Once that happens, Dana has a Technician license, and the "grandfather" clauses can be applied to grant the additional element credits to make it a General license.

So we're left with a bit of a complicated mess. But the ARRL web page I referenced does a decent job of explaining who gets what credit.

Steve
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N1DLD
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Posts: 2




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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2003, 08:46:32 AM »

Hi,
Thanks for the responses. I've downloaded and printed out the 1993 callbook data from QRZ.COM for my old tech and Advanced tickets. Will this do as eveidence? Also gonna review for element 2 and 4 and see what happens.
Thanks for all the responses.
Dana (Old - maybe new N1DLD/KA1LIF)
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W3HF
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2003, 09:10:51 AM »

"I've downloaded and printed out the 1993 callbook data from QRZ.COM for my old tech and Advanced tickets. Will this do as evidence?"

It ought to. Although the listing itself is for your Advanced ticket, it shows a previous license class that should work. (I'm in the process of requesting an opinion from an authority.)

I'll let you know what I find out. If it turns out you need other proof, I may be able to help you with a callbook listing.

Steve
W3HF
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W3HF
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2003, 09:21:50 AM »

"(I'm in the process of requesting an opinion from an authority.)"

My "source" says that should work. In some cases, he says, the local VEs may not be able pass judgment as it is not a normal listing that would have been discussed in their VE manuals. What they should do then is pass the entire package on to their VEC, and defer judgment to the VEC, which would then be favorable.

Another option he points out, if you have time and want to be definitive, is to write the FCC and request a "Letter of Verification" that you were a Technician prior to 3/21/87.  That's discussed on the ARRL web page I listed earlier, about halfway down the page.

Steve
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N8UZE
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2003, 07:44:50 PM »

A 1993 callbook listing will not necessarily prove that you had a Tech license prior to the required date in 1987.  You will need explicit proof that you did indeed hold a Technician license prior to that time.
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W3HF
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2003, 10:16:50 AM »

To N8UZE: Dana was referring to the search tool available at QRZ.com which accesses their 1993 CD. Those listings include license issue dates, unlike the paper callbooks.

Dana's listing, which you can view yourself at

http://www.qrz.com/p/1993.pl?callsign=n1dld

explicitly lists the license issue date of 14 May 1985 for the Advanced license, and a previous license class of Technician. As I mentioned earlier, this is conclusive proof of holding a Technician license prior to 1987.

Steve
W3HF
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KC8AXJ
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Posts: 303




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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2003, 07:55:01 PM »

My apologies !!

I thought after that two year grace period expired, you were done for.

73
Steve

 
       
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K8LEA
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2003, 05:03:53 PM »

Inertia has kept me from getting around to upgrading myself, but in looking at the ARRL site, I see a line:

>>- A "Technician Plus" license issued at any time is acceptable. An original "Technician Plus" or "Tech Plus" license document or copy, or any Callbook listing showing class of P=Technician Plus is acceptable. <<

I've got three of those in my wallet, and one on the wall....

(The one on the wall, and one in the wallet are current.)

Do I just need to dig up a VEC?

TNX

Stu.
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WA4MJF
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Posts: 1003




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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2003, 09:49:59 PM »

This might be an explanation about
why only the 5 WPM test is good for credit
for Element 1.

If you learn code at faster than 5 WPM
some times you can't get a good copy at
5 WPM.  My XYL took her Novice test
and the first character he set her was R
and she wrote E N.  Well, he knew she knew
the code, so he ask her what was wrong and she did not know.  So after a few more attempts at letters
and her dividn' them up, he figured it out.
He gave her her test at 10 WPM and she breezed through it.

In those days the rules required at least
5 WPM, 13 WPM and 20 WPM.  That meant you could take the Element at a faster speed or even, say
1B or 1 C and get
credit for it.  Now the regulations say
at not less than 5 WPM.  My VEC (ARRL)
says that is the only speed that we can give the
test. Which means some one that had Element 1B
and 1 C credit may not be able to copy
at 5 WPM.   I know, my ownself, that I've
trouble copyin' 5 WPM even at the 18 WPM
speed with spacin' we use for the tests.

So someone who had a Element 1A probably
could copy 5 WPM at one time or another.
Even the XYL could early in her learin'
before she took the test.  However, under
the rules then existin', she got credit for
1 A.

However, there were ham who were ships ops,
aircraft ops (our club president was radio op on
a B-25 durin' the war), etc.  Who just carried in
their Radio Telegragh Ticket and got instant
credit for 1 C without ever takin' 1 A.

So there will be some who get by with an earlier ticket
givin' credit for 1 A, even though they actually got
their Novice with faster than 5 WPM or even by passin' 1 B or 1 C.

So that is probably why the FCC won't give credit for
higher elements, but bein' the guvment, they'll
still give you credit for your Radio Telegragh
ticket.  So go figger!

73 de Ronnie
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KI4AOE
Member

Posts: 1




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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2003, 12:29:15 PM »

Steve,  Thanks for emailing me the callbook page substantiating the license I used to hold.  It threw the local VEC team for a loop, but they quickly recovered and submitted the right forms to the FCC.  I took the Tech written and now have a General ticket again.  I can't understand the rationale behind the rules on grandfathering, but what the heck.

Dave
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WB7VCG
Member

Posts: 2




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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2005, 12:05:48 AM »

Please forgive the intrusion, but I am trying to get a copy of the callbook listing for my old novice class license.  My old call was KA7UGB (not WB7VCG as I thought at first) I am told it is listed in the 1993 callbook and it expired December '04.  Name is Andre A. Martin from Sandy, OR, 97055.  Any help is greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Andy Martin
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