Hello, and I have questions about MARS and CAP...

[N9CNM]

Hello all,

I am a member of CAP here in Michigan. I am a pilot and I am also the squadron comm officer. Supposedly soon I will be taking over the HF radio.

My question is, what cooperation is there between CAP and AFMARS? Seems like AF MARS could probably do a whole lot better job at HF comms that CAP, and after all they are both organizations of the USAF. I'd sort of like to get active on AF MARS if I could connect it to my activities in CAP. These days I am really much more into aviation than ham radio, but I can do both - would like to know what I nmight be able to do if I joined MARS...

Thanks,

John Babrick

[N9KWW]

CAP and MARS are two totally different programs, yes both are federal programs but vastly different. MARS is for all services, Air Force, Army and Navy Marine Corps.
 CAP (Civil Air Patrol) is a USAF Sponsored organization with the main focus on air craft. MARS main mission is long range emergency communications. While the two interface from time to time, the missions are very different, that most of the time we are in different worlds. I would like to see CAP and MARS programs have more cooperation and inter-service operations, currently that is not possible. We do have MOM between both services but that is a far as it goes. CAP equipment standards have reduced the number of participants and NITA requirements have made it difficult for both programs to find, train and retain members.
   Your contribution to the mars program is invaluable, many CAP members are also mars members. As a mars member your training in hf would be of a great service to CAP and your understanding of CAP would be a great asset when the two services interact in emergency situations, not only in finding a down air craft but in major disasters such as Katrina. Having access to the mars frequencies when you need them are vital in times of need. You would be great at training the rest of mars members in air craft issues.

Ron Henry
N9kww/nnn0vag

[W6EM]

John:  Let me first begin by stating that I am a former MARS member, with a short stint 40 years ago in AF MARS and a long membership in Army MARS (1980 through 2004).

As the above Navy/Marine Corps MARS member said, MARS' main role now is emergency communications.  And also to provide a free communications relay service for other government agencies such as the TSA, from airport to airport, if needed.  Although, as of now, I think TSA support is primarily via Army MARS.  I could be mistaken, though.

MARS is searching for a real purpose, in that in its beginnings until the late 1990's, its primary role was to provide health and welfare comm support for active duty personnel while overseas.  AF MARS still does operate some phone patch nets where military members can speak with families.  At least as of 6 months ago.
I can't speak for NAV/MC MARS, though, in that regard.

The present emphasis is to use Winlink/Pactor III on HF to pass emails, not so much voice commms.  For instance, Essential Elements of Information (EEI) Reports are supposed to be routinely filed via email to some VIP at the Pentagon.  This seems to be a major purpose of Army MARS.  And, frankly, the reason I said 73 as my interest was in supporting the military through message traffic, and training of new comm operators.  Providing service to men and women in uniform, not some government agency looking for 'freebie' communications service at my expense.

CAP is a fine organization with a superb history and purpose.  I've known several members of CAP over my years and even one, a former supervisor of mine, who lost his own life while searching for a downed pilot.  Frankly, I don't see how sending emails via HF Winlink on a few frequencies besides what you use for voice ops could be all that useful to your primary organizational role.  Especially if there's a conflict of priorities (e.g. man the radio to support the baggage handlers vs. search and rescue)  Just my two cents.

My guess would be, and its just a guess, that MARS' end is near, while CAP is still a much needed, vital service organization.

73.

Lee
W6EM/4
Leeds, AL

[N9CNM]

Lee and Ron,

Thanks for responding.

I am basically an volunteer emergency services kind of guy. Since I am a pilot, CAP is where I ended up for volunteer service. Since I am a ham operator I have also been interested in CAP's radio activities.

CAP's role since 9/11 has been changing too. More and more of our ES activity is disaster relief and homeland security in addition to the more traditional aerial search and rescue. It seems to me that CAP has a bit broader purpose than MARS - CAP is here to provide emergency comms as well as a lot of other stuff.

Unfortunately, as I have just joined it seems that CAP's comms activities are in complete disarray - the move toward P25 and NTIA compliance has basically stalled the entire organization while we wait from word from on high as to what radios we can use and even what channels. I have been trying for several months now to get the beauracracy here to give me a radio callsign, let alone advice on what radios I can use or purchase.

It just seems to me that MARS operators already have all of the capabilities we'd like to have in CAP and more, and after all, they (AFMARS) are an AF organization just like CAP, so why don't we get CAP and AFMARS together? MARS needs jobs to do and CAP can always use more comms capabilities.

Myself, I'd like to start working on getting some sort of digital datalink in operation between the ground and the aircraft to automate aircraft command and control. I am an avionics software engineer and if I had a datalink to use then I could easliy write a tablet PC application that would provide all sorts of useful command and control and flight management capabilities to our operations. With a little more work we could be providing realtime status anywhere in the country via HF digital links.

-- John Babrick N9CNM

[W6EM]

John:  Yes, it seems I hear that NTIA is causing heartburn with its somewhat inappropriate frequency tolerance standards.  Also, which digital mode, P25, Dstar, or ?

As to spectrum uses, I have a petition before the FCC to hopefully help solve some of the dilema.  It proposes dedication of a sliver of spectrum between 148 and 150MHz for interoperability under the FCC's authority, not NTIA, as that spectrum now is.  That, of course, is where your CAP VHF spectrum is now.

My idea was not for routine operation, of course, but to provide a spot for many agencies and hams to get together.  No, digital phone wouldn't be appropriate since its an emergency-focused concept.  Not one meant to exclude others or be more spectrum-efficient through narrower bandwidth.

What NTIA demands might be OK for channelized, military radios, but it is definitely hurting CAP and CG auxiliary folks who want to and have been using off the shelf amateur gear.

I've also corresponded with DHS about the concept, hoping that they will buy in, so that MARS, CAP, CGA, police, fire, and all military branches with helos can operate there using analog NB FM.

Hurricane Katrina was a horrific event, but it provided a testament as to how vulnerable that 700-900MHz trunked, digital radio systems are.  But, of course, the FCC didn't listen.  Not with a Motorola VP appointed to their special Post Katrina Committee.

So, now, not only will fully functional, robust VHF and UHF systems used by public safety be taken off the air, they'll be replaced with trunkers that have an Achilles' heel in their trunking controllers.  If one of them goes down, the entire network under its control reverts to low power simplex operation in the one to two mile radius of each trunked slave area.

If the petition ever makes it to a rulemaking (the FCC is supposedly now discussing the issue with NTIA) I would appreciate your support.  Also, if you would, please pass the concept around CAP for the communications officials there to consider.

As for the use of digital modes to convey information and control, I'm all for it, unless it hogs spectrum and isn't coordinated, as is the case with the present amateur use of Pactor II/III and WinLink2K.  Its use on VHF is perfectly fine, since VHF and UHF are already channelized.  My major gripe with Pactor II/III is its proprietary protocol and to use it one must buy a $1300 modem from one source, SCS of Germany.

73.

Lee
W6EM/4

 

[N9CNM]

Lee -

If you approach CAP activities from a pilot's perspective the airplane has got a lot of extra radios in it. First, we have the usual two av band comm radios and the two nav band receivers. Then we have an ELT df receiver. And, we have the GPS and the DME and I suspexct the newer 182s will have ADS-B as well. Then, we have a CAP band radio working VHF-FM and in many planes we have the ability to carry along a 10 watt FM repeater. Plus whatever handlhelds we may have as backups.

All I need is some sort of datalink to and from the ground on VHF. Either I need to be able to send short simple messages about aircraft status and location or new mission tasks from the ground. All of this requires a very small amount of bandwidth. If however we had a high bandwidth channel, then it would be great to be able to downlink video or high resolution still pictures.

I have heard (but have not seen) that some of our assets have access to the MILSTAR or GLOBALSTAR satellites to relay pictures. I have also heard it doesn't work very well.

What I am hoping for is survivable realtime digital comms - comms that are not dependent on an extensive (or any permanent) ground infrastructure. That is where CAP and MARS can shine - but only if we get the beaurocrats to let us do the job.

[W4LTX]

Interesting reading.  First let's clear up one misunderstanding.  MARS is NOT hampered by the new NTIA standards as most modified amateur radio equipment with the TCXO installed meets their specifications and is acceptable on MARS and DHS frequencies.

CAP has blacklisted almost all radios except their pet Motorola/Mobat/Micoms and E. F. Johnson 5100 and 5300 series radios even there are very good alternatives that perform better at substantially reduced prices.  CAP communications is in a dismal state.  Currently CAP pretty much only has a limited air-to-ground VHF FM system.  Hf is virtually gone.

MARS is growing leaps and bounds with about 25% new members in the past year.  It also comprises nearly 85% of long haul HF emergency communications assets operating on federal government channels.

Winlink has been updated so that it is no longer dependent upon the Internet, although that feature is a main "selling" point of MARS to DHS entities.

God bless,
Pudge, W4LTX