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Author Topic: Who is responible for lost shipping?  (Read 1852 times)
KE4DRN
Member

Posts: 3714




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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2006, 01:35:54 PM »

hi,

One item was lost by USPS, I followed the
PayPal rules and the buyer was upset but
the risk was on him for declining insurance fee
(actual postal rate not inflated rate).

I use fedex ground or ups (buyer choice),
and quote the ship fee with insurance and
signature on delivery for anything I sell
that is valued over $ 100.

I only ship small items by post office that
can fit in the flat rate envelope or cartons.

With the millions and millions of packages that
are shipped all over each day, there will be errors
and most are corrected and some will never be delivered.

73 james
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WILLY
Member

Posts: 286




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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2006, 03:11:19 PM »

 by KE4DRN on March 21, 2006     


"if the buyer declined the coverage, then he is at risk,"

The buyer declined to buy YOUR insurance, and he's at risk?   It is insuring YOU, correct?



"you have proof of shimpent and a track number. "

Oh, come on.   You don't have proof of shipment of the item purchased - all you have is proof that you sent something.


"You have no obligation to offer any refund. "

Sure you do.   The buyer sent his money, and got nothing for it.

N8UZE stated it very well when he said:
" Look at it this way, how would you feel if you purchased something, sent the money, never received it and couldn't get your money back. "

Any buyer with common sense is going to take the stand that you owe him either his money, or the item he bought.   Trying to displace the responsibility for insuring it doesn't hold up.

This whole thing is just plain dumb.  
Trying to pull some of the stuff you have described here would get you on the wrong end of a every legal action possible, with any buyer that is not willing to be taken advantage of.
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KE4DRN
Member

Posts: 3714




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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2006, 07:38:05 PM »

hello willy,

what is your call ?

As posted above, I do not charge inflated
insurance fee, I just collect the actual fee
usps charges for coverage.

it is a business decision, if the seller offers
to insure the item(s) and the buyer declines
the insurance fee then the buyer is at risk.

Yes, I agree it is silly, some people are cheap
and don't want to pay for insurance.

On the other hand, there are many out there that
post excessive 'insurance' and ship/hand fees,
and that is their choice.

I don't do that and don't buy stuff from those that do.

73 james
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KB9YUR
Member

Posts: 229




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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2006, 03:29:00 AM »

I gave up on using UPS years ago. Now, anything I ship
or buy over $100 in value, I have it sent Fedex or
DHL next day insured. Yes, it costs more. But, the less time the shipper has the package, the less time
there's a chance it will be lost or abused.
George ...
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AVSERVICE
Member

Posts: 4




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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2006, 05:19:44 AM »

This is amazing to me!

Why do you think they call it SHIPPING INSURANCE?!?

The shipper is responsible until it is received on the other end.
The shipping companies only deal with the shipper on a claim and I think that says it all.

If you ship and do not insure it is on you.
If your buyer will not pay the insurance then he is smarter than you are having asked him too when it is your responsibility.

I am not being nasty here but it just is not that tough to figure this one out.

Shipping insurance is to protect the shipper and they should get it every time.
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WILLY
Member

Posts: 286




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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2006, 07:31:25 AM »

 by KE4DRN on March 24, 2006     


"what is your call ? "

Why?


"As posted above, I do not charge inflated
insurance fee, I just collect the actual fee
usps charges for coverage. "

Charge?  Collect??    My, my -  aren't you just the nicest fellow?    You only charge and collect from the buyer for YOUR insurance?    

People are not as stupid as you seem to think they are.


"it is a business decision, if the seller offers
to insure the item(s) and the buyer declines
the insurance fee then the buyer is at risk."

What??    "If the seller offers..." ?   Why in the world would the buyer care if the seller offered to jump over the moon too?    It has nothing to do with the buyer,  and apparently you are just trying to muddy the water by bringing it up this way.   Dumb logic.  Easy to see.

If you, the seller, receive the buyer's money, and the buyer does not receive his item,  then you either have to supply it, or refund his money.    Again,  you are just trying to move the responsibilty from yourself to the buyer, and it won't flush.



"Yes, I agree it is silly, some people are cheap
and don't want to pay for insurance. "

Right.  Since YOU are responsible, it would be wise for YOU to insure against YOUR loss.   The loss does not magically somehow becomes the buyer's.


"On the other hand, there are many out there that
post excessive 'insurance' and ship/hand fees,
and that is their choice. "

Since this is irrelevant, then maybe it is another attempt at self aggrandizement?      It is not strengthening your case.  It can't.


"I don't do that and don't buy stuff from those that do."


Let's make it easy for you to understand.   Suppose the  buyer lived within a distance that he may drive over.
Suppose he showed up on your doorstep and asked for either his item, or his money?   Would you have nerve enough to do your, "Ho hum -  Yes, I have your money, but it's not my problem that you never got what you paid for" line?    That would be a good way to suddenly be missing some teeth.
The only reason you can get away with your type of behaviour is that you have no fear of retribution, due to mileage.    Someday, somewhere it will catch up to you, and you'll get taught what you lack in common sense.
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KC8VWM
Member

Posts: 3124




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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2006, 09:11:20 AM »

As the seller you have the responsibility of offering the insurance.

As the buyer you have the responsibility of assuming any risks if you decline the insurance.


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WA9SVD
Member

Posts: 2201




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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2006, 03:57:11 PM »

But as the seller AND shipper, it's only prudent to buy insurance for your OWN protection!  Otherwise, you are in the original predicament:  an item gets lost, and the shipping company (whether the USPS or whomever) says YOU are out of luck, not the recipient.  If you bought the insurance, (whether or not the recipient wanted it) YOU, the seller, are the only one who can make an insurance claim, NOT the buyer.
    And unless the shipping carrier actually packaged the item for you, there is no way to prove what you shipped; just that you sent a package.

    I would never ship anything of value, by any carrier, without insuring it.  Some carriers provide insurance up to a certain amount, such as $100.00, as part of the shipping fee.  Otherwise, it's wise to pay an extra dollar or two.  If you have to, just raise the asking price a couple of $ to include the cost before you finalize a deal.

    Any lawyers out there that are faliliar with the strictly legal aspect?
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WILLY
Member

Posts: 286




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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2006, 04:49:42 PM »

 by WA9SVD on March 25, 2006     

"...
Otherwise, it's wise to pay an extra dollar or two. If you have to, just raise the asking price a couple of $ to include the cost before you finalize a deal. "


Bingo!

This is it - the simplest, easiest, most common sense thing to do.
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KE4DRN
Member

Posts: 3714




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« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2006, 08:42:53 PM »

hello willy,

Yes, I am a nice guy, I don't post anonymous.

btw, if the buyer stopped by for a visit for his
refund for a lost package without insurance then
YES I would refuse the refund because he refused
the carriers insurance fee (actual not inflated).

unless otherwise, goods are shipped FOB origin, the
risk passes to the BUYER once item is accepted by
the carrier: USPS, UPS, Fedex, etc.

Your local community college may offer classes in Business Law, vey interesting stuff.

Shipping Terms - Risk of Loss

Sometimes goods under contracts for sale are lost, damaged or destroyed and neither the buyer nor seller is at fault. Unfortunately, one or the other must absorb the loss or try to collect from the person responsible for the loss. The buyer and seller in a sale of goods contract may freely decide in the contract which one will bear the risk of loss or how it will be shared.

Shipment Contracts and Destination Contracts

When goods are to be carried by a third party, determining who bears the risk of loss (buyer or seller) depends on whether the parties have entered into a "shipment contract" or "destination contract". In a "shipment contract", the risk of loss moves from the seller to the buyer at the time the seller properly delivers the goods to the carrier. In a "destination contract", the risk does not pass to the buyer until the goods are presented at the destination so that buyer can take delivery from the carrier.

If the contract does not expressly allocate the risk of loss, most courts will find that the contract is a shipment contract. This finding is based on the assumption that the buyer is more likely to have actual control of the goods during shipment, more likely to insure them during shipping, and better able to prevent any loss.

QED and 73
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WILLY
Member

Posts: 286




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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2006, 07:41:18 AM »

 by KE4DRN on March 27, 2006


"... I don't post anonymous."

So what?   Relevance to the topic/discussion?


"btw, if the buyer stopped by for a visit for his
refund for a lost package without insurance then
YES I would refuse the refund because he refused
the carriers insurance fee (actual not inflated)."

Like I said, you could quickly lose a couple teeth.
Deservedly so, since you've ripped off the buyer.  

The buyer didn't refuse anything - YOU did.  YOU sent it - the buyer could not buy insurance from the shipper, YOU could.  


"unless otherwise, goods are shipped FOB origin, the
risk passes to the BUYER once item is accepted by
the carrier: USPS, UPS, Fedex, etc.

Your local community college may offer classes in Business Law, vey interesting stuff."


That's a problem with colleges -  people seem to take everything they teach as gospel.  Further, they never seem to have any courses in plain old common sense.



"Shipping Terms - Risk of Loss

Sometimes goods under contracts for sale are lost, damaged or destroyed and neither the buyer nor seller is at fault. Unfortunately, one or the other must absorb the loss or try to collect from the person responsible for the loss. The buyer and seller in a sale of goods contract may freely decide in the contract which one will bear the risk of loss or how it will be shared.

Shipment Contracts and Destination Contracts

When goods are to be carried by a third party, determining who bears the risk of loss (buyer or seller) depends on whether the parties have entered into a "shipment contract" or "destination contract". In a "shipment contract", the risk of loss moves from the seller to the buyer at the time the seller properly delivers the goods to the carrier. In a "destination contract", the risk does not pass to the buyer until the goods are presented at the destination so that buyer can take delivery from the carrier.

If the contract does not expressly allocate the risk of loss, most courts will find that the contract is a shipment contract. This finding is based on the assumption that the buyer is more likely to have actual control of the goods during shipment, more likely to insure them during shipping, and better able to prevent any loss. "


This is just great information!   I hope lots of people are reading along, and remember you.   Maybe someday you'll be selling something.  
What are you going to do when you don't receive  the money and the buyer calls you up, asking why you haven't sent his item?    By your logic, you'd have to go ahead and send him the item, since it is not his fault, but YOUR responsibility/loss that the package containing the payment was never delivered to you.

See how easy it is to understand, when you put the shoe on the other foot?


"...
This finding is based on the assumption that the buyer is more likely to have actual control of the goods during shipment, more likely to insure them during shipping, and better able to prevent any loss. "

That is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen written.









 
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KA1MDA
Member

Posts: 543




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« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2006, 08:34:37 AM »

There is a very easy way to avoid this entire issue in the future. Whenever I sell anything on E-bay, I always include, as part of the item description, something like "winning bidder to pay $XX for shipping via UPS GROUND within CONUS."

That solves everything. Buyer knows how it's going to be shipped, how much it's going to cost, etc., and I'm covered. If potential buyers don't like those terms, they can look elsewhere. I estimate shipping cost ahead of time based on weight, packing materials, and insurance. I've sold about 20-30 items on E-bay, and have never gotten 1 complaint as to condition of item or cost of shipping.

As extra protection, I also video tape everything I sell before packing. A few minutes of time/date stamped video of me operating the radio, making contacts, etc may help prove an item was in fine shape before it left my posession. I've never had to use any of that tape, but think the protection is worth the extra 10 minutes it takes to make it.

Tom, KA1MDA
www.ka1mda.org
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KE4DRN
Member

Posts: 3714




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« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2006, 02:23:48 PM »

hi tom,

yes, good idea to tape the item in use before shipping.

73 james
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KE4DRN
Member

Posts: 3714




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« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2006, 02:33:46 PM »

hi willy,

The passage I posted is common business law,
Uniform Commercial Code, check it out !

A seller could end up in a dentist's chair
but the buyer will end up in a court of law,
and not the TV show kind.

73 james
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AVSERVICE
Member

Posts: 4




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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2006, 04:18:34 PM »

I suppose if this is true,then it only makes sense to spell out the terms exactly in advance of any shipping and create a paper trail should any of the exchange need to be proven later.

It seems to me to be just common sense and I am guessing it seems to each that his opinion is common sense given the way each of us states and defends our position but this may not cut it in court.
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