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Author Topic: Nets! How much is too much?  (Read 1012 times)
N2RRA
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« on: July 13, 2009, 09:08:04 AM »

How much is to much?
 
I've tried to justify how much is too much with all these Nets that continue to take up the air time and Amateur Radio spectrum that is to be shared with the rest of the Ham Radio community. In the process these nets begin to think that the frequency has now become their "owned" frequency and if anyone is using it at the time they wish to operate they move 1-2 KHz +/- to QRM or operate on top of an on going QSO. How much is too much before we get disgusted or something is done about it.
 
"Aside from the Emergency/traffic Nets such as the Red Cross, Intercon, PacSea and Maritime Mobile Net's which is plausible",
 
I think that running a net like the Night Owl Rag Chew net for 3 hours is ridiculous and not needed. Minutes after one net has closed there's another taking over every 3 kHz. Mean while if another station would like to call CQ and is lucky enough to find a clear spot these nets have callers waiting for as long as 20 minutes or longer before they can be heard. Bands change which becomes a waste of time and the CQ caller else where can call for as long of time without getting his QSO in for the day.
 
Now! Being that said if I continued to move every 3 KHz in the General class portion of 20 meters lets say which has the best MUF of the day running into a net where only 2 stations can hear me at the given time when do I stand my ground if there's no where else to move too and say enough is enough?

Now standing my ground is only a small part of it. Observing "Gentleman Band Plan Agreemenets and Operating Procedures" as well as Article 97 and observing the "common sense" and "logical" 3 KHz band rule where you ask if frequency is in use and nothing is heard then later rudely interrupted with a net what would you do?

73's!
Eric
N2RRA
 
73!
Eric
N2RRA
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W0FM
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 11:24:02 AM »

Hi Eric,

I am not a "net" operator with an exception or two.  But do the math.  30 hams operating a "net" on the same frequency take up far less bandwidth than if there were 15 different QSO's in progress on 15 different frequencies.

I don't see the problem.  It's actually quite efficient if a bunch of hams want to "sit around" for 20 minutes waiting for their turn.  It's their time, and, like I said, they are occupying ONE frequency.

73,

Terry, WØFM
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WB5JEO
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 12:22:26 PM »

Sure. It's going to happen. But that's when I remember, "Hey. It's just amateur radio." If your hobby keeps you upset, it's time to find another. The same applies to bizarre or vicious social and political expressions and contests.

Net operation is just as legitimate as any other activity. It would be difficult to get a net together by everyone trying to hunt up a net control who might be here or might be there, although wise nets specify +/-, unless, like the MM net, there's a good reason to be findable in a hurry on a fixed frequency. And I don't blame the whole net for one or two boors who DEMAND that a QSO in progress be moved because it's net time on that frequency.

I could make the same kind of complaint about a band filled with a contest or people who are so desperate to get a DX station that they try to break into an ongoing conversation.
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KG4RUL
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 01:35:01 PM »

Rephrase the question to:

"I've tried to justify how much is too much with all these CONTESTS that continue to take up the air time and Amateur Radio spectrum that is to be shared with the rest of the Ham Radio community."

or

"I've tried to justify how much is too much with all these RAGCHEWS that continue to take up the air time and Amateur Radio spectrum that is to be shared with the rest of the Ham Radio community."

It all depends on whose Ox is being gored.
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N2RRA
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 03:18:33 PM »

Very good comments and opinions!

Ok! As for contest, and special events I agree that now they are popping up like fly's on crap for every little reason which can be unbearible, but contest still take up far less time on the air all year than nets. So, as far as contest being your gripe it should'nt. Plus! It's also been the core of Amateur Radio as well has DX chasing for over 100 years and will always have their place in Amateur Radio even before nets.

Let's do the math on major contests, or all of them through the year and take all the nets through the year and total the hours I'm sure nets far exceed it's usage.

One comment irks me here! If a QSO is on going and one does not know of a Net that is scheduled one said "it's Net time" was that supposed to mean that one has too move? If so that is an off the wall arrogant comment if that what was suggested. Not to me mention inconsiderate.

 If an on going QSO was in progress and it were with a DX station which can happen once in a blue moon, or rarely these nets totally have no consideration for you and do as I said before. They take it +\- a little or jump right on the same frequency. "How do you excuse that!"

Is it right? How would you react? How much of that can you take and what do think the reprocussion of bad operating and habits when taught to new operators will be the end result in years to come?

73's,
Sent from my Iphone!
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N3OX
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 08:00:39 AM »

"Let's do the math on major contests, or all of them through the year and take all the nets through the year and total the hours I'm sure nets far exceed it's usage. "

I'm not so sure about that in the sense of :

Usage = Bandwidth Occupied *  Time Spent On

Thirty nets occupying 3kHz each 365 days a year for 3 hours a day is 98,550 kHz*hours.

Four contests that occupy a total of 500kHz (like much of the 20m and 40m bands) for 48 hours is about 96,000kHz hours.

The important thing is not who uses the bands more, because honestly, some bands are often relatively empty in the sense that there are a LOT of clear frequencies available.

The important issue is being polite to the other "type" of users.  The net guys hate it when the contesters and DXers pretend they're not there and edge in 0.5kHz away.

The contesters hate the fact that the net guys won't accept they being less than 4kHz away on an absolute wall to wall band.

And when tensions get high and bands get crowded it only takes a handful of bad ops to make things very bad.

The contesters need to be more mindful of the fact that sometimes the only band that's useful for a net is also being used in a contest weekend, and they just need to consider that little hole as off-limits.  And the net guys need to realize that they can't live an absolutely QRM-free existence on a contest weekend.  We're entitled to a reasonable SSB bandwidth around the frequency we're occupying, and the definition of "reasonable" depends on how full the band is.  If the contesters can hack 2kHz spacing, maybe the net guys oughta consider some narrow filters so they can too.

But it's not going to happen, because enough net guys think the contesters have a stupid hobby and should get the $(*# out of the way and enough contesters think the net guys have a stupid hobby and should get the $(*# out of the way.

73
Dan
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73,
Dan
http://www.n3ox.net

Monkey/silicon cyborg, beeping at rocks since 1995.
WB5JEO
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 12:18:41 PM »

The same complaints were being made when I was first licensed thirty-something years ago. And I have no doubt the first ever net operation had the same issue. Well, maybe not. The first were relay nets that were doing well to contact the next link in the relay, which was also the best "DX" that could be expected.

This is one of those things where the only thing you can control is how you react to it. How someone reacts pretty much tells me who they are.
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N2RRA
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2009, 08:39:52 PM »

WB5JEO,

Well! After 19 years I'm just about to throw the towel in. Consideration, respect, and mature conduct is just something that can't be controlled by old dogs set in their ways.

I just cant stand people who what to challenge and change every good system that comes their way because of poor up bringing  Their bitter, destructive behavior will eventually continue to deteriorate the very opposite behavior Amateur Radio once stood for and will lead to an atmosphere that plagues 11 meters.

73's
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 09:00:28 PM »

I'm a fairly "old time" ham (licensed 44 years now) and my first radio experiences were with "nets."  CD-RACES nets, back in the Cold War days when we were building fallout shelters and CD was a very active entity.

I always thought they were silly.

All these years later, I still think they're silly.

I don't believe a net actually occupies any less bandwidth than a single QSO because all those stations who are in the net would not be operating anywhere else, if not for the net.  ;-)

I hear nets for every non-purpose under the sun.

Perhaps I should start a new one, the "non-net net" so we could gather and discuss why nets are silly.

WB2WIK/6
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W7ETA
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 02:13:20 AM »

When I first had General privileges I would get angry when I turned my rig on and heard CQ contest--nope, there weren't any new bands free of contests.

Eventually, I got over myself.  Plus I could still have FUN in the other section of a band where there weren't contesters.  After a while I looked at contesters as my fellow hams, who occasionally came out in forces to enjoy ham radio.  For me there was always next weekend, or Sunday night after the test ended.

When all I had was a low trapped inverted Vee for 40 and 75, I enjoyed checking into a Centaury net looking to finish WAS.  Lacking a tower and beam wasn't that good for DXing in the General portions of the bands at that time.  So, I would get into DX nets.

Now, a few sunspots later, hearing a band full of contesters is exciting, even when I'm not interested in working anyone; I never think about joining any kind of a net, but where I hear one, I know I'm hearing some hams having the same FUN I had.  After all, what can be better than turning a rig on and hearing hams having FUN?  Tuning across a dead band is about as exciting as waiting for snow here in Tucson.

I still have a lot of FUN on 80, and RARELY venture out of the DX window on 75.  

For me getting upset because some other op doesn't enjoy ham radio the way I do wastes MY time.  Its always more FUN for me to work my VFO looking for someone interesting to chat with, or just FUN for me sorting thru a BIG pile up trying to find where the DX will be listening next.

And yea, some of the net ops sound like bone-heads and sound as if they bully people off their net frequency.  No matter how elegantly you explain Part 97, or how tactfully you explain how they can run the net a little higher or low than where you are, they won't play radio they way you think they should.

Try getting your Extra ticket, it'll give you more spectrum to play in.

Best from HOT and HUMID Tucson
Bob
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AA4PB
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 05:53:38 AM »

Steve, did you have a yellow radio? CD nets work a lot better if your radio is painted bright yellow. :-)
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N4KZ
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 06:52:05 AM »

I have nothing against nets -- unless they start acting like they own the frequency and adjacent frequencies. Nothing causes me to do a slow burn any faster than being in QSO with someone and then have some guy break in and tell me to QSY down because his net is going to begin in a few minutes 2 or 3 kHz away. Despite many pronouncements over the years by the FCC that nets have no more priority than anyone else to certain frequencies, people forget that faster than the speed of light.

Nets are OK. They seem popular with newer ops. When I was a newcomer four decades ago, they appealed to me too. But I soon grew tired of nets and haven't been a regular in decades. Many seem rather pointless. I can't count the number of times I've heard some net control station go through his long-winded preamble, stands by for check-ins and no one checks in! What a hoot. But this is nothing new. Old grumpy guys, like me, were complaining about them 40 years ago. Still are. Nothing new under the sun.

73, N4KZ
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 09:50:26 AM »

>RE: Nets! How much is too much?       Reply
by AA4PB on July 15, 2009    Mail this to a friend!
Steve, did you have a yellow radio? CD nets work a lot better if your radio is painted bright yellow. :-)<

::Yes, of course it was.  It also had no knobs on the transmitter tuning controls, so you needed a little screwdriver to adjust those.  The big blue-and-red "CD" decal on the side of the rig scared off the enemy, and the 6E5 tube kept an eye on the place.
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N5LRZ
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 11:44:30 AM »

RE N2RRA....

Per FCC Rules and Regulations no net may own a frequency.  It is essentially First Come First Served.  

THUS IF you are on a frequency engaged in an otherwise completely legal conversation or exchange of information and someones says "get off the net will start soon" all you have to do is REFUSE to leave.

The decision is YOURS to make not THEIRS to demand--keeping in mind of course that YOU are there and actually using the frequency FIRST, ahead of them.  The FCC Rules and Regs are on YOUR side not theirs.
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N4UM
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 05:08:10 PM »

Try CW or the digital modes. Try 17 meter SSB.   People there can still find clear frequencies to call CQ or to carry on conversations without listening to 19 or 20 other stations in round tables.

It's like driving a car.  If you insist on driving on a major freeway during rush hour you certainly can complain about the traffic but don't expect your complaints to have any effect - other than to raise your blood pressure.
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