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Author Topic: a 7500 watt 11 METER CB OP?  (Read 18803 times)
KG4WXP
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Posts: 165




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« on: August 27, 2009, 03:56:58 AM »

I dont know what it is with me and running into these forums that make me want to pull my hair out, but I ran across something displaying someone using a '10 meter' radio....a ranger 2950.... and it wound up a convo about regulations and the FCC...this is what the guy said:

"I am an Extra class ham. There is no f***ing way that I would say a word about anybody operating WTF ever they want too. As long as they stay away from 10m, I could give a s**t less. I still play the high power 11m thing. I have for 15 years without any problems. Dips**t cops don't know a fuc**ng thing about radio, so they stay out of it. 226 High Desert mobile rockin' these 32 pills around Sin City, NV, just got DOWN!

I don't know where your at up there, Rabbit. I used to live up around Hastings, MI, which used channel 22. I used to go as Titan and ran a 6 element beam with 2kw. My mobile was a Galaxy 88 and a 12 pill box. I got out of it for a while, got my ham ticket, and now I am back operating from just outside of Sin City, NV. Now I am running an RCI 2970 and a 32 pill amp in the mobile -- pumping out a 3000w key-down and swing up around 7500w. Not the biggest, but I can be heard for sure, lol "


7500 Watts on 11 METER? Why isnt the FCC going after THESE people?
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WB5JEO
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2009, 09:01:08 AM »

The F.C.C. isn't exactly the highest priority federal agency, and it has a very broad mission in which the amateur and citizen services are only a small part. And no doubt the proliferation of more and more devices radiating RF has strained the engineering and RFI enforcement resources.

If you think about what it takes to build even a solid administrative case for something like illegal power, it's mostly beyond what they have to work with. To prove up a contested violation, you have to show to at least a civil preponderance standard that a particular person committed a particular violation, a violation that has to be proven by an engineering argument. It's not a trivial process. You may "know" something's in violation, but you can't argue a case based on someone's estimation made from experience. The idiots who imagine that they're clever pirates somehow confounding efforts to catch them are delusional. They're not evading any effort, because no one's making that effort. The cops he's not worried about don't do anything about it because it's simply not within their jurisdiction to do anything about it. State law isn't involved, and state and local police can't enforce federal law that doesn't happen to also be a state violation.

And the F.C.C. doesn't get much of the advantages some other administrative agencies have with their violations of law. Some other agencies deal with matters that are often associated with local law enforcement or regulatory investigations where they can take what the local agency has developed and use it. Unless the violation involved interference with a local public safety operation, local agencies have neither the jurisdiction nor technical ability to develop cases.
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AB4ZT
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Posts: 172




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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 09:37:45 AM »

7500 watts out would be about 15000 watts in, which in a 12 volt system would draw 1250 amps.  I think this guy is just blowing smoke.

73,

Richard
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KG4WXP
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Posts: 165




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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 11:44:29 AM »

I thought that the local law enforcement had the authority to arrest cb'ers nowdays though?
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NO2A
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 02:46:02 PM »

I`ve heard these cb`ers make these impossible claims about power output. It`s all talk.  What do you really think would happen to your mobile (or base) antenna if you pumped 7500 watts into it? It would melt,big time,then your s.w.r. would go through the roof. Think these guys ever actually measure their power through a wattmeter? Of course not! They don`t know what a wattmeter is let alone how to measure any power output. I`ve heard them bragg about their "1000 watt linears". And where exactly do you buy a 1000 watt linear anyway? (for mobile use) If only we could stop these truck stops from selling their "10 meter" radios,some are 12 meters also. I know one of the popular chains is currently under investigation for doing this. (Petro,or Pilot) All we can do is hope for the best.
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WB5JEO
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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2009, 02:47:27 PM »

State law enforcement, which includes state, city, county, and various district peace officers may enforce state law and the local ordinances of their particular cities and counties. There is no authority to arrest for violations of federal law, unless the local officer has also been commissioned as a federal officer, which is most commonly done by Homeland Security for customs matters, and those officers use that authority strictly for the limited purpose intended.

Only the most recalcitrant violator of F.C.C. regulations would ever be actually arrested, and even then it would be after a long effort at civil enforcement. I suspect most people arrested for radio operations were actually arrested for contempt of court following an court order to refrain from operating. And the arrest then could be made my any officer of any jurisdiction who happened across them, but would most likely be done by the U.S. Marshal Service. A federal judge can and will act to enforce orders. For actual violations of federal penal law, the U.S. Attorneys have to pretty picky about what cases they take. They have rather limited resources.

I could be standing there watching someone operate on 11 meters with what I knew to be a 1kW amplifier. Unless the operation was knowingly interfering with official public safety communications, I could do nothing, except the rather futile step of reporting to the F.C.C. and offering to be an especially credible witness. Only the knowing interference would be a violation of state law, and it would be for that specific effect on public safety communications, not for general interference with a licensed operation. I did once arrest an individual using a lost or stolen law enforcement VHF hand radio to interfere on a law enforcement channel, but it was for theft and the interference, not for operating the radio, per se.

It gives the CB bunch a thrill to imagine that the F.C.C. if lurking, and they're successfully avoiding the police, but it's just silly.
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N5LRZ
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2009, 03:10:10 PM »

Re JEO...

NOT quite exactly true....

Read the following....

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2000/11/29/3/cbbill.html


I have even been known to go so far as to encourage local law enforcement agencies to pass the required laws to permit local law enforcement enforceing CB rules and regs and to even suggest that said law enforcemnt agency persons with volunteer licensed amateurs conduct station inspections after some formal FCC Training Course in regards to such things.
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KG4WXP
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Posts: 165




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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2009, 04:12:36 PM »

you're right!


***************
The ARRL Letter
Vol. 19, No. 46
December 1, 2000

==>PRESIDENT SIGNS CB ENFORCEMENT BILL

President Bill Clinton has signed legislation that permits the enforcement
of certain FCC Citizens Band regulations by state and local governments.
Amateur Radio operators are exempt from the provisions of the law, now PL
106-521.

Congressional lawmakers saw the measure as a way to give a voice to those
experiencing radio frequency interference resulting from illegal CB radio
operation. The FCC will not yield its authority to regulate Citizens Band or
other radio services, however.

In short, the measure authorizes states and localities to enact laws that
prohibit the use of unauthorized CB equipment--consistent with FCC
regulations. This would include the use of high-power linear amplifiers or
equipment that was not FCC-certificated.

FCC-licensed stations in any radio service--including the Amateur
Service--are excluded from such state or local enforcement, and state or
local laws enacted under this legislation must identify this exemption.

The bill--HR.2346 is the House version; it was S.2767 in the
Senate--actually is the old Senate "Feingold bill" from several sessions
ago. The bill's sponsor, Rep Vernon Ehlers of Michigan says local hams asked
him to support the bill because of the bad rap they were getting from
illegal CBers using high-power linear amplifiers that resulted in TV and
telephone interference while the CBers involved hid behind federal
preemption.

As did Feingold before him, Ehlers asked the ARRL to review his measure to
ensure that it would not unintentionally harm Amateur Radio.

A copy of the new legislation is available on the ARRL Web site at
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2000/11/29/3/cbbill.html.
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KE4DRN
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2009, 05:03:57 PM »

hi,

even if FCC fines them they have no
means to pay the hefty fine.

Even K1MAN Baxter is on the air again.

73 james
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W7ETA
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Posts: 2527




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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2009, 10:55:26 PM »

Why would they?

They can't go after every CBer nut.

Bob
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WB5JEO
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Posts: 805




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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2009, 10:11:05 AM »

Some cities have enacted ordinances:

http://www.ci.brentwood.ca.us/citycouncil/pastagenda/packet_2001/ccap20010522/ccap20010508_04.htm

In states where city ordinances are enforced a criminal law (Texas, for instance), such an ordinance gives local police considerable power to take action, including search warrants and seizure of equipment as evidence, which normally means it's held until the matter is resolved. That resolution cuts both ways. A local court's decision can be appealed through the odd route of the F.C.C., although the details of various states' criminal procedures might mean it might have to wait until the state appeals processes had been exhausted, or it might mean they could proceed simultaneously. The provision for appeal through the F.C.C. makes for a messy appeal that's not going to make city attorneys enthusiastic, so it's largely a matter of being able to at least do something about citizen complaints of interference, not complaints by hams that someone is running illegal power.
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TANAKASAN
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Posts: 933




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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2009, 08:05:24 AM »

This is a good example of Darwin in action. Very high RF power, especially into a mobile antenna will eventually leave the guy glowing in the dark.

Then again, 15Kw input will reduce any car battery to slag so he is probably talking out of his blunt end.

Tanakasan
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N5LRZ
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2009, 08:36:05 AM »

Re JEO...

Is it not the Job of the City Legal People do take care of such things???

I would truly hope that no local government would ever consider paying their official legal rep good money for sitting around doing absolutely nothing--although I would not doubt that the lawyers might think otherwise.

Then I say let them do their job and earn their pay--just like everyone else Smiley
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N5LRZ
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2009, 08:43:02 AM »

RE ETA...

They cannot go after evry CB Nut..


Given that the fine for breaking regulations goes up to hmmmm I want to say 10 thousand a pop, that is pretty good financial incentive in my book to as you say \'go after every CB Nut\'.    

Just 10 CB busts at 10 K per bust gets the government 100,000.00 in cookie money.  Think of how much $$$$$ would be gained in fines if the FCC tacked a max on to a thousand, several thousand as you say \'CB Nut\'.


There is serious $$$$$ to be made here.
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WB5JEO
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Posts: 805




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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2009, 07:34:00 PM »

"Is it not the Job of the City Legal People do take care of such things???"

City attorneys have a lot going on. Unless it\'s a very large city, it\'s unlikely one or more attorney\'s will be assigned to municipal court. In many cities, it\'s one attorney, often a local lawyer contracted to handle the routine matters and advise the city.

It\'s not clear from the federal law and FCC regulations that I\'ve seen what the process is when someone appeals this sort of thing to the FCC. The FCC isn\'t in any way in the chain of state appeals process that\'s normally invoked in other prosecutions. I have been a municipal court judge. In other more usual cases, an appeal from a municipal court conviction goes up to county court-at-law for a trial de novo, a new trial from start, because there\'s no trial record in most Texas municipal courts. My feeling is that the case would take its normal course up through the county and (if the defendant chose) the state courts before the conviction became final (when state appeals had been exhausted, which is the normal requirement before going to federal courts), and only then would it go to the FCC. I wonder if it\'s ever gone that far. It may be that no one really knows how to proceed and won\'t know until someone forces them to work it out.

But, really, this is one of those things where the ordinance is used to manage a nuisance, and very often it works as soon as the offender knows the city will do something. And it\'s most common for cities to start light and move up the enforcement ladder until it works. You warn. If that doesn\'t work, you file a charge. If it continues, you move to another charge, since each time is a separate offense, and maybe seizure. Only the most determined violator will force it to the extreme. It\'s also a matter of how much money the violator wants to spend to fight it. Here, you do not get an appointed attorney to defend fine-only causes. If you want one, you pay for it.


"Given that the fine for breaking regulations goes up to hmmmm I want to say 10 thousand a pop, that is pretty good financial incentive in my book to as you say \\\'go after every CB Nut\\\'."

Not really. The cost of building a decent case and taking it to enforcement rapidly exceeds any fine you might ever collect. So it\'s not at all a matter of laying on a bunch of enforcement people end engineers who would pay their own way through fines. Other than traffic, which is easy to enforce and some drug enforcement in places where seizures can carry the cost, no enforcement is ever anything but a large expense for the government. It\'s always a matter of whether or not you want to enforce it badly enough to spend the money to do it. In this case, it a matter of Congress covering the enforcement budget. And FCC would have to be asking for the money and making that project a higher priority than anything else they could do with the same budget money. One might look at the federal law allowing local government to deal with some of it, but it\'s really also a signal that Congress isn\'t inclined to do it with federal resources.
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