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Author Topic: cw interfering with digital on 40 meters  (Read 2946 times)
W5ESE
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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2010, 11:14:33 AM »

I get the feeling that those suggesting to read the band plan are suggesting that the ham was operating in conflict of the band plan.  Please explain how operating cw anywhere between 7.000 and 7.125 is against the band plan.  Thank you all I really am trying to learn from this.  73 Mike.

The originator of this thread was operating on 7076 KHz, which is outside the data
mode segment from the ARRL band plan 7.080-7.125 MHz. So he was fine.

The issue is that the Winlink PMBO, that he was ostensibly interfering with, was
set up on the same frequency. IMHO, Winlink PMBOs ought to be set up between
7080-7125 KHz, as they are set up on a fixed frequency, so that Winlink clients
will know where to look for and connect to them. We would generally be better
off if RTTY, packet, and PSK users would confine their activities, when possible,
to 7080-7125 KHz. And CW users should primarily confine their activities to
7000-7080 KHz.

As it stands now, CW operators can be found below roughly 7000-7038 KHz,
then avoiding the RTTY DX window around 7040 KHz, 7042-~7060 KHz, and
then again between 7100-7125 KHz for slow speed SKCC/FISTs activity. I
think we would all be better off occupying a large, contiguous chunk for CW;
7000-7080 KHz, and not having the band chopped up into so many tiny
chunks.

73
Scott W5ESE
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AB9NZ
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Posts: 176




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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2010, 07:09:40 PM »

A few years ago the FCC gave 25 kilocycles of the novice band to the phone guys. I don't feel downloading Ham Radio DeLuxe should earn a guy the right to the rest of the novice band. I don't believe I'll ever feel that I'm not being a "Considerate Operator" for using the novice band or putting my little qrp rig on 7.040.
 So far the digital folks have been very considerate of our  novice band. I feel we should hold this beachhead and lobby the League to have the real estate above 7.100 codified in both the band plan, and the "Considerate Operators Guide".  
  Take very good care guys, de Tom, AB9NZ,
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N3QE
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Posts: 2072




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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2010, 08:55:39 PM »

If it makes you feel any better I have a small collection of OO postcards too :-).

It is very possible to be QRM'ing a station that you cannot hear. At least as heard by the third party (the OO) in this case. The third party, in this case the OO, had the possibility to tell you that you were interfering in response to your "QRL?" but he didn't. That's kind of a case of too-bad-so-sad... happens all the time.

But, an OO is especially likely to write you up if you interfere with W1AW. Avoid 7047.5 and 7095. Maybe the OO knows of some other "non frequency agile system", it would be nice if he told us what it was.

One slight suggestion: Do not send "QRL" to ask if a frequency is busy. Send "QRL?".

Tim.
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N2EY
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Posts: 3835




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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2010, 02:54:30 AM »

AB9NZ writes: "A few years ago the FCC gave 25 kilocycles of the novice band to the phone guys. I don't feel downloading Ham Radio DeLuxe should earn a guy the right to the rest of the novice band."

I disagree.

My old QSTs say that originally there was no 40 Meter Novice band at all. When it was added, it was 7175-7200, which is just 25 kHz.

When I was a Novice in 1967-68, the Novice band on 40 meters was 7150-7200. 50 kHz full of SWBC.

Years later the FCC moved the Novice band on 40 down to 7100-7150. All those old Novice xtals were now in the 'phone band. Still 50 kHz and still lots of SWBC.

A few years ago the FCC again moved the Novice band on 40 down, this time to 7025-7125. Its size doubled to 100 kHz, and the SWBC is almost all gone. Hams outside Region 2 are getting 7100-7200 (if they haven't gotten it already), doubling the size of 40 for them.

So what's the problem?

I think W5ESE has the right idea. CW on the low end, RTTY/data on the high end. Dividing line at 7080.

That OO should be informed that the "non-frequency agile" system is operating outside the bandplan, and couldn't be heard anyway.

It used to be that RTTY and other data modes had to ID in CW every so often so everybody knew who they were. That requirement went away (in thr USA) years ago, so now unless you're equipped to decode every data mode in use, you can't tell who is who.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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N7DM
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Posts: 671




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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2010, 09:17:16 AM »

I've often wondered about the Holy aspect of the ARRL bandplan. I *am* a Life Member, but I've come to recognize a few things 'awkward'. When I was in TF-Land many years ago, the TF government just gave over 'all thing Ham Radio' to the TF version of ARRL. If they decided something at a meeting...it was LAW. [Such as, USA Hams could take the test for a TF Ticket, but the exam was in Icelandic!]

On Top Band we co-exist with A3 and A3J 'OK' until a Phone Contest. 'We' can survive in The Jungle with narrow IF; THEY have notch filters. From the way the Hobby is going, these tools will become more and more necessary.

*I* consider Band-Plan, then do what is necessary for a QSO. I wonder freely around a seemingly empty 12 meter band; pick up an occassional  Phone Op that can work CW; a rare cross mode QSO.

It's a Hobby. Follow the FCC law. Don't get to distracted by 'other things'. The Basic Rule... from days when receivers weren't ALSO frequency meters: Stay below the highest sig you can hear; above the lowest... and have fun...
DM
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AB7KT
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Posts: 155




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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2010, 09:53:55 AM »

I am glad I read this.
I didn't realize that 7.100-7.125 was set aside for digital modes. That was part of the novice band when I was a novice and I still operate there for lower speed CW. I worked a couple contacts there a couple days ago.
Is there any chart available that lists all this stuff ? I know about the considerate frequency guide but it seems like there are so many DX windows, various calling frequencies,................. that I can't keep up. To be honest, I am not on the air all that much: I don't have up an antenna. But occasionally I will string up a wire and get on the air. I can't remember all this stuff from one time to the next. I don't want to interfere with someone elses enjoyment of the hobby, and if I did so, it was unintentional.
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I thought you said this was a weak signal mode ? I HAVE a weak signal and he still didn't hear me.

FWIW: My callsign is AB8KT
KE4ILG
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Posts: 149




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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2010, 12:23:56 PM »

The band plan is available at arrl.org.  The 7.1-7.125 is a great place to work slow code ops.  CW is authorized from 7.000 thru 7.300 don't let anyone tell you differently.  Interference with others is not ok.  

I question if the frequency non agile station that was reportedly interfered that started this thread should be examined.  It was outside the band plan.  It is an unattended station unable to change frequency.  And amazingly many who have responded here have failed to point this out.  It sounds to me like some enjoy the use of the winlink system and want to protect this particular station.  Apparently there are extensive threads on the digital forum regarding this subject. Just search for winlink or pactor.  

Its apparent to me some have attempted to disguise what this OO's complaint was about. I also suspect the OO has interest in the station thereby prompting the initial letter. 73,Mike.
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AB7KT
Member

Posts: 155




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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2010, 12:42:05 PM »

We have the ARRL bandplan, we have the ARRL considerate operators guide, and we have the actual legal frequency allocations.
It would be nice if all this information was incorporated into one single chart.

For example, if you look up the ARRL bandplan, it doesn't even mention SSB or CW.
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I thought you said this was a weak signal mode ? I HAVE a weak signal and he still didn't hear me.

FWIW: My callsign is AB8KT
WB5NHH
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Posts: 14




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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2010, 04:08:53 PM »

Since I have posted the comment about cw interfering with digital(NON FREQUENCY AGILE DIGITAL SYSTEMS)on 40 meters I would like to tell all of you what has transpired in the mean time. Prior to posting on this forum i called my section manager and explained the situation to him, he in turn said he would contact the OO and and find out what happened, he sent the OO a email.  I then GOOGLED JT65A (A form of non frquency agile digital systems) AND YOU  NEED TO GOOGLE IT ALSO. HOW CAN A MODE CLAIM FRQUENCIES (7039 KHZ AS WELL AS 7076 KHZ AS WELL OTHERS) FOR THEIR USE?Huh? The OO replied to the section manager and also to me. He expressed his views about me  as a amateur radio operator and my equipment and etc concerning the interference. I was licensed in 1974 as a novice and upgraded to a general in 1975.AS a amateur radio station and radio operator I try to conduct myself with the highest level of honor, integrity and character and operating practices and strive to be an exemplary CW operator courteous to other operators at all times.  I have tried to model my amateur operating  as the same as I am a man, with integrity , honor and character and being sensitive to other peoples needs. Life is too short to be worried about things. We are all amateur radio operators and we have to share frequencies on the bands and be tolerant  of one  another, sometimes things do happen on the  frequencies that are alloted to us the same as in life. When i transmitted on 7076 khz I did not here anyone, however I  have made it my practice not to operate on 7076 khz again and will steer clear of that frequency and I want to apologize to whomever  and to whoever that I caused interference to and I am sorry that it happened and it want happen again. I appreciate all the post that all of you sent in regards to this matter and I can tell you that if anyone of you ever get into a jam and and need a hand contact me  I will help you out with whatever I can do. I am going to take W7ETA'S advice on what he said No.1  OO'S  OBSERVE they aren't traffic cops. No. 2 OO sent info to me No. 3 REVEIWED my operating habits NO. 4 GO BACK TO HAVING FUNNNNN!!!!
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AB7KT
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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2010, 04:14:40 PM »

What were his views about you as an operator, your equipment............ ?

What did the section manager say ?
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I thought you said this was a weak signal mode ? I HAVE a weak signal and he still didn't hear me.

FWIW: My callsign is AB8KT
W5ESE
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Posts: 550


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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2010, 08:53:17 AM »

I then GOOGLED JT65A (A form of non frquency agile digital systems) AND YOU  NEED TO GOOGLE IT ALSO. HOW CAN A MODE CLAIM FRQUENCIES (7039 KHZ AS WELL AS 7076 KHZ AS WELL OTHERS) FOR THEIR USE?Huh?

Did you mention to your ARRL Section Manager that the non-frequency
agile digital station is not operating in compliance with the ARRL Band
Plan?

Do they even look at the relevant band plans, or are CW operating
frequencies just considered "up for grabs", because "nobody uses CW
nowdays anyway"?

73
Scott W5ESE
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AE4RV
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« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2010, 09:12:08 AM »

RTTY contest this weekend. Find me on 17 and 30 meters...
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WB5NHH
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Posts: 14




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« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2010, 11:58:39 AM »

In regards to the section manager, when he sent the OO the mail about the problem with interference he stated  that if the "non-frequency agile" system was operating on 7076, this is below the recognized 7.080-7125 band for RTTY/Data and should expect interference from non-data narrow band analog signals of operators who cannot hear them. This is especially true if they can only operate on a single frequency outside the Considerate Operator' Frequency Guide.
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N2EY
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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2010, 04:04:07 PM »

W5ESE asks: "Do they even look at the relevant band plans, or are CW operating frequencies just considered "up for grabs", because "nobody uses CW
nowdays anyway"?"

I think it's a mixture of things.

First off, JT65A is a weak-signal mode originally developed for EME and similar use. Part of WSJT. That means it's often used near the noise level, making it easy to interfere with because you may not know it's there.

More than a few folks who use the various "sound card data modes" do so by hooking up an SSB transceiver to a computer with a soundcard and software. The software looks at a couple of kHz of the band at a time, and has a nice waterfall display. Some software can even decode several signals at once.

The problem is that if there's a strong signal near the receiver passband, it may activate the receiver AGC and cause all kinds of havoc. The op of the strong signal station may have no idea of this if s/he is using a rig with a narrow filter.

Happens to PSK31 folks too. The solution, of course, is to use a narrower filter and turn off the AGC. But a lot of hams are so used to AGC and wide filters that they don't do that.

A second factor is specific to 40 meters:

In the world outside Region 2, the 40 meter ham band was only 7.0 to 7.1 until recently. (Thank old Adolph for that one).

Regions 1 and 3 developed different bandplans to deal with having only 100 kHz, which is why the DX RTTY frequency is 7.040 and you hear DX 'phones well below 7.1. I suspect that the choice of JT65 frequencies was so that DX outside Region 2 could use them.

But as part of WRC 2003, the rest of the world got 7.1 to 7.2 as a ham band. So their bandplans should be changed to reflect it, and move upwards.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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AE4RV
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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2010, 04:30:38 PM »

"So their bandplans should be changed to reflect it, and move upwards."

I sure hope so.
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