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Author Topic: cw interfering with digital on 40 meters  (Read 3009 times)
W5ESE
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« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2010, 11:12:04 AM »

In regards to the section manager, when he sent the OO the mail about the problem with interference he stated that if the "non-frequency agile" system was operating on 7076, this is below the recognized 7.080-7125 band for RTTY/Data and should expect interference from non-data narrow band analog signals of operators who cannot hear them. This is especially true if they can only operate on a single frequency outside the Considerate Operator' Frequency Guide.

Good; that's exactly what he should say.

You're Section Manager is a smart feller!

If you don't hear any activity on the frequency, ask 'QRL?' without receiving
a response, you should be free to operate on 7076 KHz any time you please.
It is, after all, outside the digital mode subband, in the frequency range that
should primarily be for CW activity.

73
Scott W5ESE
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QRZDXR2
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2010, 11:40:07 AM »

Ya we get this all the time... those idiots over on the digital modes think they have more rights than the cw op who is live and at the key.   When we approched the situation we found that if they are un-monitored and un-attended they are the ones that can be cited for interfearance.

You are doing it right.  If someone comes on and says they are using the freq you just arrived on then indeed you must yeald to 'em.  But other than that a band plan is just as good as the paper its written on.  When the rest of the world is using SSB on the CW segments then something is way wrong.   I see the ARRL is trying to address and arrest this conditon but, as they said in microsoft  NT (nice try)  

Actually if your not a member of the ARRL then one could say they don't suscribe to the plan that they came up with and thus you don't have to ever go see what, who is where.  

Find a spot that no one is transmitting on and enjoy... but, for the guy who said that you can work CW anyplace  in the band... nope. .only with your class of license can you.  Which I think is biased and discrimatory and the ARRL and FCC should be sued because they took something away from all and gave it to priviliged idiots that don't have any more smarts than an ant.

As to interfearance... well lets take a look at the PSK guys who come on a set frequency right on top of you and start transmitting.  Ahhh hello OO you going to get in on this?  No. didn't think so... go back to sleep.
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N3QE
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2010, 12:58:36 PM »

WB5NHH: You need to calm down a little bit. Lots of us have collections of OO postcards. I don't disregard them but some of the OO's are a little too hypervigilant about how they write things up and they can be educated - or ignored - as the situation permits. And sometimes the education really is two-way.
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AB9NZ
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« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2010, 07:02:19 AM »

I'm really surprised to see support for a band plan that has cw end above 7080. Jim and Scott, do you feel that the SKCC and FISTS are being "inconsiderate operators" with club slow code frequencies at 7014, 7118 es 7120?
I don't know exactly when it happened, but personally, I'm shocked to learn that the digital portion of the band plan was extended up from 7100 to the phone part. I think it's a very special piece of spectrum for beginners, qrp'rs, old timers that can't run anymore, guys running old gear, crystal controlled or direct conversion stuff, and people just trying to relax on a contest weekend.
  The digital folks (whom I have to admit are doing some really cool and amazing stuff) don't  even seem intersted in this part of the band. Why be so eager to give it away when they aren't even asking for it? I love the League, but think they made a serious error here.
  From previous posts I know you guys to be really sharp and very knowledgeable and I'm probably missing something in your reasoning, so please don't in any way take my query as an attack.
  Take very good care folks, Tom, AB9NZ, Mount Prospect, Il.
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KB2FCV
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« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2010, 08:52:20 AM »

What I'd like to know is when did it become accepted for PSK to come down in the 7.035 - 7.040 range?
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W5ESE
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« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2010, 08:59:56 AM »

I'm really surprised to see support for a band plan that has cw end above 7080. Jim and Scott, do you feel that the SKCC and FISTS are being "inconsiderate operators" with club slow code frequencies at 7014, 7118 es 7120?
I don't know exactly when it happened, but personally, I'm shocked to learn that the digital portion of the band plan was extended up from 7100 to the phone part. I think it's a very special piece of spectrum for beginners, qrp'rs, old timers that can't run anymore, guys running old gear, crystal controlled or direct conversion stuff, and people just trying to relax on a contest weekend.
  The digital folks (whom I have to admit are doing some really cool and amazing stuff) don't  even seem intersted in this part of the band. Why be so eager to give it away when they aren't even asking for it? I love the League, but think they made a serious error here.
  From previous posts I know you guys to be really sharp and very knowledgeable and I'm probably missing something in your reasoning, so please don't in any way take my query as an attack.
  Take very good care folks, Tom, AB9NZ, Mount Prospect, Il.

Hello Tom,

I wouldn't characterize myself as being particularly sharp or knowledgeable. Opinionated
is probably a better characterization.  Cheesy

My personal preference would be to see CW operators fully occupy the segment from
7000-7080 KHz; with the faster operating and DXing taking place in the bottom portion
of the range, and the more casual, friendly, QRP, boat anchor, and beginner CW operating
occuring between 7060-7080 KHz. For one thing, being adjacent to the rest of the CW
activity would make it more likely that beginners CQs would be answered. There are
many CW operators who never venture in the range above 7100.

I think it's important also to recognize that interest in the data modes is increasing, and
much of this data mode activity is taking place +/- 10 KHz of the RTTY DX window at
7040 KHz (whether it's actually contacts with DX or not). This has the effect of splitting
CW activity into 3 segments; below the RTTY DX window, above the RTTY DX window
but below about 7060 KHz, and then the FISTs/SKCC activity above 7100 KHz. A lot of
the data mode activity not around the RTTY DX window is above 7060 KHz and below
7100 KHz.

I just think we would all be better off; CW operators as well as data mode operators, to
consolidate our activities into contiguous segments; CW between 7000-7080 KHz, and data
between 7080-7125 KHz. In order to remove the data activity around 7040 KHz, data mode
enthusiasts need to be provided with somewhere to go. The range above 7100 would be
perfect for domestic data contacts and Winlink PMBOs. The RTTY DX window could be in
the lower portion of the data segment; 7080-7100 KHz. The recent expansion of 40 meters
in IARU Region 1 (from 7000-7100 KHz to 7000-7200 KHz), makes it possible to make this
move now.

I don't fault FISTs or SKCC for making use of the old Novice band. I have a sentimental
attachment to that range (I was WN5RMQ, and still have a couple FT-243 crystals in that
range), and I've operated in that range myself; both casually and in SKCC events. But I
think we would be better off making more full use of the range between 7060-7080 KHz,
and let the data enthusiasts enjoy the old Novice band, in return for less data mode
activity below 7080 KHz.

73
Scott W5ESE
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N2EY
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« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2010, 09:41:19 AM »

AB9NZ writes: "I'm really surprised to see support for a band plan that has cw end above 7080. Jim and Scott, do you feel that the SKCC and FISTS are being "inconsiderate operators" with club slow code frequencies at 7014, 7118 es 7120?"

I agree with everything W5ESE wrote, and will add just a few comments..

AB9NZ: "I don't know exactly when it happened, but personally, I'm shocked to learn that the digital portion of the band plan was extended up from 7100 to the phone part."

A bit of history:

Since before WW2, hams outside Region 2 have been limited to 7000 - 7100 kHz, while Region 2 hams have had 7000 - 7300. In addition, many if not most countries outside the USA don't have subbands-by-mode imposed by regulation; they just have bandplans, which are gentleman's agreements.

What has evolved is a pattern of band use that looks like this:

CW at the low end
RTTY/data/digital (whatever) in the middle
'Phone at the top end

In addition, DX 'phone ops often move below the US 'phone subband to get away from QRM and/or work split.

The reason DX RTTY and PSK31 are down around 7040 is because, to them, it's the middle of the band!

Meanwhile the FCC has eliminated the old Novice subbands and widened the 'phone subbands, squeezing everyone.

(I've been a ham so long that when I was a Novice, and for years after, 40 'phone was 7200-7300 only, and the Novice subband was 7150-7200. My only 40 meter Novice xtal was on 7175.

To make it even more of a sporting course, in the USA we don't allow RTTY etc. modes in the HF 'phone subbands. So when a 'phone subband is widened, those folks are squeezed lower.

The one ray of hope is that 7100-7200 is opening up to most of the world's hams, and the SWBC is all but gone below 7200.

So it seems to me that a 40 meter bandplan for 2010 would look like all the other bands:

CW at the low end - say up to at least 7070
RTTY etc. in the middle - say 7070 to 7125
Phone at the high end.

If we try to push some other plan, we're asking for trouble:

- the more complex the plan, the less attention many will pay to it

- CW operation will be fragmented up and down the band, rather than unified.

- CW ops will be charged with QRM of stations they cannot ID (see below)

AB9NZ: "I think it's a very special piece of spectrum for beginners, qrp'rs, old timers that can't run anymore, guys running old gear, crystal controlled or direct conversion stuff, and people just trying to relax on a contest weekend."

I'm not sure what you mean by "old timers that can't run anymore".

As for the rest, as a CW op I'd MUCH rather deal with a stretch of band full of other CW signals than with a mess of 'phone and various RTTY/digital/data signals.

This is particularly true if I'm using simple gear, because unlike CW and 'phone the RTTY etc. signals cannot be ID'd without a special decoder. But *they* can ID the CW signals!

AB9NZ: "The digital folks (whom I have to admit are doing some really cool and amazing stuff) don't even seem intersted in this part of the band. Why be so eager to give it away when they aren't even asking for it?"

The idea is to get some rationality into the plan. To do that we have to give them something.

For example, 7.040 used to be the QRP CW frequency, particularly for crystal-controlled rigs. Then the DX RTTY folks decided to use it, because their 40 meter band is so narrow and they were being pushed down by 'phone ops. If we promote CW activity above 7080, the digital folks will move lower still!

I don't see why older gear and the rest can't be used farther down the band.


AB9NZ: "I love the League, but think they made a serious error here."

What's a better alternative?

AB9NZ: "From previous posts I know you guys to be really sharp and very knowledgeable and I'm probably missing something in your reasoning, so please don't in any way take my query as an attack."

No offense taken!

73 de Jim, N2EY
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AB9NZ
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2010, 10:51:49 AM »

Folks, by "old timers that can't run anymore" I was referring to pioneer hams that have forgotten more about radio than I'll ever know, but may be shaking with palsy or going deaf.
  I'm just four years a ham, and was never code tested, so all of the kindness and patience I've met on the upper part of 40 cw is still very fresh in my mind. 7080 on down can be very intimidating to a new operator seeking the craft. I believe that is why the clubs man those beginners frequencies so diligently.
  I feel the separation from the bottom half gives us regular guys a little much needed elbow room during contests etc. Perhaps I've become a bit piggish in my affection for this part of the band. Thanks for taking the time out to share your insight guys.  
Very 73, de Tom AB9NZ, Mount Prospect Il.
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WB5NHH
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« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2010, 03:05:01 PM »

N3QE, You stated in your comments that I need to calm down a little bit, I just want to pass on to you that I have calmed down not just a little, but a -w - h - o - l - e    l - o - t.  I have to agree with what you said about OO's being a little hypervigilant about how they write things up. I dont have a vast knowledge of radio elctronics as compared to alot of hams but I have tried to the best of my ability to keep up with technology as best I can. Just to shed a little light on this subject of "CW interfering with digital on 40 meters"I was provided this information after having received a report from a OO about interfering with  a digital station on 40 meters at 7076 khz usb  The frequency 7076.0(also 7039.0) khz USB is a very well established frequency used by the digital mode JT65A, and has been in use for a while. On those two frequencies ( and other frequencies on other bands from 160-6 meters) is a worldwide JT65A spotting network using something called Reverse Beacons, the creation of W6cqz, now W4cqz. The RB Network as it is often called is there for the purposes of propagation study and automated spotting of stations heard in the bandwidth of the receiver in use(this can be as much as plus/minus two khz from the specified center frequency, in this case or "MY CASE" 7076 khz USB. W4cqz has a real time chat page and JT65A spotting page. You can create an account there http://jt65.w6cqz.org/newuser.php and use http://jt65.w6cqz.org to log in. You can see real time jt65A spots as they are intercepted and reported by the world wide network. Another source of digital ham spots, including JT65A, is at http://hamspots.net, with the possibility of interacting with other digital operators in a chat mode. The RB Network  itself transmits no signals. It is a series of receivers set up around the world,intercepting those that operate JT65A and automatically posting them to the network. When someone operates JT65A and gets interfered with by interfering signals (CW)the world wide network  suffers. Hence my interference report to me by the OO. It appears to me that there maybe issues here. and it is not us CW ops.  I operate cw on 7055khz to 7065 plus or minus 1khz. I dont go beyond that but only to listen. I would probably get runover.I HAVE GONE BACK TO HAVING FUN ON CW. POUNDIN BRASS  WITH MY ONE AND ONLY KEY. MY TRIED AND TRUSTED J-38 DIDIT  DIT
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WB5NHH
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« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2010, 06:48:12 PM »

Since I last made a post here about operating cw on 40 meters between 7055khz and 7065. Some times  I do go below the frequencies I have assigned to myself here, maybe down to 7050Khz but not any lower. And sometimes up to 7070 khz and not any higher providing the frequencies are quiet and clear. There seems to be so much space up there and not much activity if any other than some ssb stations from down south. I operate only cw.I dont want to sound county but there are some amateurs that can for ever more cut the mustard on cw. And Lord willin  I am going to be there one day. I just want to say to you people that can do that and even to the ones that cannot like me YOU MAKE ME PROUD TO BE A AMATEUR CW RADIO OPERATOR.
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