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Author Topic: QRO... what for?  (Read 51488 times)
WB6BYU
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Posts: 17181




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« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2010, 08:09:19 AM »

Quote from: WB6BYU
Quote from: W6BR
Life is too short for QRP...

I often hear this.  And, for those who believe it, it may very well be true.  But some of us take a more relaxed
approach to the world and plan to live longer.  So we'll have plenty of time for QRP.


And here is a new study showing that competitive people are at higher risk for heart attacks.
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KC8OYE
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Posts: 297




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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2010, 09:40:29 PM »

There seems to be a growing number of hams taking the 'cb mentality' to operating.. it's rather frightening really.. going for the 'alligator' stations.. running a kW of power through a terrible antenna system such that EVERYBODY can hear them.. and they can't hear anyone coming back to them..

this not only makes them look bad.. it gives ham operators a bad image.

i'm not a general YET.. but I've spent enough time listening to HF to see this.  We are supposed to be SKILLED operators.. while most of us are.. there seem to be a growing number of us that aren't..
where I used to live in MI we had continual problems with an operator who was cramming several hundred watts through a yagi on 2m to talk on a repeater some ridiculous distance away.. this in itself was no big deal.. but the RF coming off the back of his beam was causing all kinds of problems with our repeater (we were co-ordinated on the same pair)
his response to the QRM was basically "F.u"  we ended up going through great expense and difficulty to put a pl tone capability into our repeater as to be 'the bigger operator' which also created a lot of difficulty for those who used it (myself included, were using radios that weren't panel-programmable, so adding PL tones wasn't easy) because another ham felt he needed huge power because he couldn't hear the distant station.. I thought we were supposed to be better then this?
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W5JON
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Posts: 289




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« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2010, 01:34:08 PM »

How to succeed with QRP:  Make sure the guy at the other end has is QRO, and Stacked Yagis.

How about giving the guy at the other end with the Stacked Yagis and the KW just a little credit. After all he is the one that just spent 10 minutes trying to dig your 1.5 watts and 10' whip out of the noise.

In my 50+ years, I have always tried to put the BEST signal on the air that I can, not the LEAST. And YES I still do really enjoy having a DX Station answer on the first call, and having a long QSO without having to repeat every transmission, and don't give me that silly argument that QRO is no challange or fun.

So give the QRO guy at the other end just a little credit, for your QRP contact.

73,

W5JON
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STAYVERTICAL
Member

Posts: 875




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« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2010, 04:50:38 AM »

The funny thing is seeing the strange logic that some QRO operators use to justify high power operation.
For example some assumptions QRO operators seem to be making:

1. QRP stations use 10 foot whips while QRO stations have stacked yagis.
They don't seem to know about all the qrp stations who use large antennas such as log periodics and stacked yagis.
I routinely work qrp stations with huge antennas, who simply don't feel the need to run QRO as their antennas do the work.
Sure they could pump a gallon into those antennas and light up nearby cities street lighting with their signals, but they
value the challenge of an efficient station at all levels without the CB mentality of pumping a KW into a hamstick and
thinking they are running an efficient station.

2. If a QRO station can receive a qrp station, then being QRO seems to have something to do with receiving as well.
In fact this has nothing to do with being QRO - it is simply a function of the antenna, receiver and the patience
of the operator doing the listening. As most QRO operators run high power to beat pileups and get a strong signal out, it
makes me laugh to hear them touting how patient they are!
In my experience if you are not S9 most QRO operators will not give you the time of day, less try patiently to dig you out of the noise.

In most of the world hams use 100W rigs at the most, and seem to get out fine under all but the most taxing conditions.
Being QRO under these conditions usually means being a big mouth with small ears.
You have all heard them, chirping like crickets all day without any replies and wondering why.
My personal favourite is a PSK31 operator in Hawaii who was overheard saying on 20m PSK31,  " I usually run 500W PSK31 into this
4 element monobander, but I have cut it back to 200W for now".
Is it any wonder QRO users have no clue nor finesse when they stomp over everyone else and then harbour feelings of persecution
because most other users think they are lids.
It is also strange that QRO users seem compelled to frequent QRP forums and threads, as if to justify themselves they feel the need
to demean qrp users who could never interfere with them in any case.
Perhaps the QRO users just need a big hug.

    
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W5JON
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Posts: 289




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« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2010, 07:07:23 AM »

Stayvertical:

Another rambling reply from an anonymous contributer, who obviously as no pride in his/her callsign. 

73,

John W5JON
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STAYVERTICAL
Member

Posts: 875




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« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2010, 04:55:07 PM »

Hi John,

A perfect illustration of qro mentality - ignore the facts and try to push emotive buttons.
Lets ramble a bit more.
Since this is a qrp forum and you are pushing a qro agenda, I assume you feel vulnerable about the use of qro and wish to gain acceptance from the qrp group.
Let me say you are welcome - we qrp users are very patient, as this is a requirement for qrp.
If you ever decide to try the qrp experience here are some qrp/qro metaphors:

- Portrait artist Vs graffiti artist
- Surgeon with scalpel Vs construction worker with jackhammer
- Archeaologist with brush Vs man with bulldozer
- Sniper Vs carpet bombing
- Train commuter with earphones Vs commuter with boombox

In the final analysis ham radio is big enough to indulge all our personal preferences, and it is your choice and right to do qro - just give others the same courtesy.

P.S. in the spirit of qrp I am posting this from a cell phone!

73s
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W5JON
Member

Posts: 289




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« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2010, 06:06:13 PM »

Hello ?,

In case you did not notice the topic is: QRO... what for?  Sorry but I did not realize stations not 100% QRP were not permitted to submit an answer. As you can see there is a "?" at the end of the topic.   

Also, I will be happy to engage in a spirited exchange with you, and address all your comments, after you have given your callsign. On the air I do not engage in conversation with anonymous individuals, nor will I do it here. As you can see, I am not assamed of my callsign(s) or who I am, which is more then I can say for you. So until you choose to give your callsign, OUR converation is over.

However, the fact remains that it is 3dB gain per power double, so going from .5 watts to 1 KW is a 33 db gain, so good luck finding that 33 dB gain Yagi. 

BTW, while operating outside the US as V47JA, J68JA, V31FB, P40DX, and G0AOH, I often operate QRP when band conditions allow, and call CQ for QRP only, so save your lecture.

73 and great QRP DX,

John W5JON
 

 
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STAYVERTICAL
Member

Posts: 875




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« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2010, 07:57:53 PM »

Hello John,

You are quite correct in describing the topic, and if you look back through the thread you will see many posts regarding legitimate reasons for qro operation, which are accepted as perfectly valid.
The situation becomes different when posts take on the "life is too short for qrp" or "the qro station does all the work" flavour.

As regards the gain situation, some qrp stations go as low as 0.5W but most run the 5W qrp level.
This equates to 23dB difference between 5 Watts and 1000 Watts, or roughly a 4 S unit difference.
This may or may not be significant depending on signal levels.
If looking at a typical station using 100W from a standard ham rig, the difference becomes 13dB or about 2 S units.
As always, it is not the power which is the defining factor, but how much of it is actually radiated which is important.
This is where the antenna comes into play, and since qrp stations need to minimise losses, much effort is generally put into this area.
In my own case I get around 8dB gain from my antenna, so if I don't advertise the qrp status, most stations would not realise it.
It is also most gentlemanly of you to call for qrp stations and in the true spirit of ham radio, so thank you.

You are also quite correct in not talking to anonymous stations on air, since that venue is a regulated licensed area.
However, this is the internet, not 20 meters and if you don't like anonymous operation it may be better to stick to ham radio.
In any case, it was nice to have your participation, don't take it personally, everyone is perfectly entitled to their opinion - it is what makes each one of us unique, yourself included.
Thank you for contributing your individual opinion.

73s
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W5JON
Member

Posts: 289




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« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2010, 05:23:19 AM »


In an Amateur Radio forum, it would be best not to use your CB radio "handle".  Bye.....

73,

John W5JON
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AG8K
Member

Posts: 33




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« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2010, 07:30:46 AM »

I personally enjoy working a guy with a strong signal especially for SSB.  I run from 5 watts to 1200 watts output with several rigs.  Sometimes the FT-817ns works quite well but I am usually on CW when I can say that. Sometimes on 40 meter SSB around 1300 hr I wish I had 1500 watts.  I notice when the band isn't very good that if I call CQ at about 600 Watts output I will hear stations that hear me quite well but I have trouble hearing them.  They are usually running 100 Watts or less output. 

Tom AG8K

How to succeed with QRP:  Make sure the guy at the other end has is QRO, and Stacked Yagis.

How about giving the guy at the other end with the Stacked Yagis and the KW just a little credit. After all he is the one that just spent 10 minutes trying to dig your 1.5 watts and 10' whip out of the noise.

In my 50+ years, I have always tried to put the BEST signal on the air that I can, not the LEAST. And YES I still do really enjoy having a DX Station answer on the first call, and having a long QSO without having to repeat every transmission, and don't give me that silly argument that QRO is no challenge or fun.

So give the QRO guy at the other end just a little credit, for your QRP contact.

73,

W5JON
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N2EY
Member

Posts: 4455




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« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2010, 09:52:35 AM »

This whole thread sort-of bothers me, and I finally figured out why.

It's the unjustified generalizations.

The title is one: it assumes that there's no valid reason to run high power. Truth is, there are times when QRO is justified, and times when it isn't. All depends on the situation.

Another generalization is that QRO ops use only brute force while QRP ops use only skill. True sometimes, but not always. Nor even most of the time.

Or the generalization that QRO ops have big antennas and QRP ops have poor ones.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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IZ4KBS
Member

Posts: 94




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« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2010, 02:40:52 PM »

How to succeed with QRP:  Make sure the guy at the other end has is QRO, and Stacked Yagis.

How about giving the guy at the other end with the Stacked Yagis and the KW just a little credit. After all he is the one that just spent 10 minutes trying to dig your 1.5 watts and 10' whip out of the noise.

I disagree. Completely. I do have a QRO rig but I've been using it less and less, and now I'm QRP most of the time, and often rock-bound too, or VXO at most. Nevertheless, I'm making regular contacts with other QRPer, with wire antennas at both ends. Sure not 10' whips, but neither beams of sort. Over the last few days I've made several DX contacts on 20m, in the 1000-3000 Km range, with only 500 mW on my side, and a few watts at most on the other, and only one of those guys was using a yagi: all others were wire. If I wanted a sure-fire way to communicate with someone I would rather send him an e-mail, or maybe give him a phone call. Ham radio isn't much different than fishing: if I just wanted to have fish for dinner I'd better buying it from a shop.
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NU4B
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Posts: 2490




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« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2010, 05:05:35 PM »

I find that when other stations pick up my 5 watt signal it has nothing to do with the power they are using.

Normally it means the other op is an A-1 op and there probably is a good antenna at the other end.

A couple winters ago I heard 4O3A working 80 meters. I thought I would give it a shot. He immediately came back 599 - no "?", no problem with the call, first try. As I was logging the contact I said "wait a minute - how did that happen?"

I checked the 4O3A web page and saw the picture of a 2 element 80 meter yagi on a 150' tower and I said "oh, that's how that happenned!" Of course that is an extreme example.

I've been a QRPer for over 25 years and (having listenend to many other QRP signals) I will always give to credit the other op. And those ops in some far away rare countries that take the time to dig me out of the mud are real class acts. But not much correlation between power used and great operating ability/habits.

So there you have it, a QRPers adorring gratitude to the ops at the other end of the QSO - thanks for being there!
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KA7PLE
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Posts: 25




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« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2010, 08:17:27 PM »

I enjoy QRP. I enjoying using rigs I have built myself (even if they are from kits). Some of the most memorable QSO's have been using 2.5 watts from a rig I built, into a dipole at 45'. QRP is a challenge, you have to change your strategy especially during a pile up or contest. But I can take a very basic setup and get on the air from anywhere, with out having to lug a generator or 100lbs of battery around.
QRO is fun too, and its cool to be able to "talk" to anyone you can hear. But for me I will stick with QRP. You should at least give it a try. If your rig is able too, just turn down the power and see just how well you can do. You might be surprised. It's all about having fun, learning something new, making friends, and helping your community. At least it is for me.
Good luck in what ever power level and mode you choose, it's a great hobby and well worth the time and effort you put in to it.

73
KA7PLE
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W0BTU
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Posts: 2217


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« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2010, 10:04:11 PM »

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I found it more intelligent with less bickering than many others.

Here's my two cents worth, if I may. QRO and QRP both have their place, no argument about that. I try and abide by the "minimum power to maintain the desired communications" rule.

Although I can see myself trying QRP someday, I'm a 100 watt+ guy. I don't run QRP and seldom have, though I think I understand the logic and thrill of those who chose to. A good friend of mine (AE0KU) used to like it, and I found that his enthusiasm was a little contagious.

Having said that, I have a problem with people not hearing me. Especially so in a pileup. And especially so since I like DXing on the low end of 160 meters, where I've found that 100 watts just won't cut it sometimes. I have Beverage antennas and I think I can hear very well, thank you, and high power lets me communicate with DX stations that do not and have to contend with LOTS of local noise, as well.

All I have at present is an amplifier that will do 600 watts out. I'm in the process of building an amplifier (a pair of 833Cs) that will output 1500 watts. And if it were legal, I would gladly run 10,000 watts on 160 when needed.

During a 10 meter contest about 30 years ago, I had a pair of vertically stacked yagis on top of a 70'+ tower, feeding it with 1500 watts. It was a thrill, to say the least. I'm not sure --at least at that point of my life-- that I would have had as much fun running 1 watt. Don't ask me to explain it, but there was some kind of satisfaction hearing a 60 over 9 report from California (I was in Ohio), and working one station after another, after another, after another, etc.

Maybe I had an ego (I don't think so); go ahead and tell me. ;-) But I was simply having the time of my life and wasn't bothering anyone.

To each his own.

But today, my sole band is 160, and it's QRO for me.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 10:06:50 PM by Mike Waters » Logged

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