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Author Topic: person wearing striped ties , tv scanning trouble?  (Read 2395 times)
KG4YMC
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« on: April 09, 2010, 12:55:43 PM »

Know this ins't ham related, but I noticed on old bw movies and when a person on tv has a striped tie  that it messes up the color on the tv. Explaination? . I fugure it has to do with the scanning of color tvs. My tv is an old samsung analog, but off the dish. I noticed the effect on old movies if front of car grill or smething with lots of lines get colored lines . Just curious what causes it ?  I remember an old carson show were they made him change his jacket cause the jacket he had on had stripes and was messing up the picture .  Also, my mother clained my brother saw the color of a persons dress on  the tv back in the  50s before color , what  were some of the  earlie  at colorzation of bw broadcast? or mabey olde brother had to  much gerber?  hi  73 kg4ymc
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KE3WD
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2010, 03:20:29 PM »

It is frequency beating with the 3.58MHz color oscillator circuit. 

NTSC analog TV is almost a dead horse now. 

But you should be able to use websearch engines, wikipedia and the like to get some in depth information on the how and why of the frequency beat phenomena. 

Side note:  Johnny Carson used to *intentionally* find ties that would beat with the color oscillator, and wear them on the Tonight Show, much to the chagrin of the televeision production engineers and crew.

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KG4YMC
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2010, 05:52:56 PM »

Thank you for the  information. the set I have is a newer samsung, it is hooked to the direct tv so what I met was that it is digital from the coverter and probably converted back to the analog system that most pre hd and digital sets have , but anyway.. thanks .  . also I guess I could see were Carson liked to bug them , he was the last of the great late night shows. thanks again for not treating me  like an idiot for asking a questian. 73 kg4ymc  p.s. guess if that gave the enginers a fit , I remember trying to see an old bw picture on a color tv back in the days of three gun systems and not haveing a color tint . anyway 73   terry.
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KG4YMC
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2010, 05:52:59 PM »

Thank you for the  information. the set I have is a newer samsung, it is hooked to the direct tv so what I met was that it is digital from the coverter and probably converted back to the analog system that most pre hd and digital sets have , but anyway.. thanks .  . also I guess I could see were Carson liked to bug them , he was the last of the great late night shows. thanks again for not treating me  like an idiot for asking a questian. 73 kg4ymc  p.s. guess if that gave the enginers a fit , I remember trying to see an old bw picture on a color tv back in the days of three gun systems and not haveing a color tint . anyway 73   terry.
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WB5JEO
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2010, 06:55:58 PM »

When I was in television news, we were cautioned about wearing pinstripes for that reason. When the station bought its first color studio camera, we all had to go out and buy pastel dress shirts. The white shirts that were proper dress for men would cause the scene to exceed the dynamic range of the camera and would flare. That made us appear to be quite fashionably advanced for the day. Of course, we also had to avoid any clothing with the blue hue that was used for the blue screen replacement that, among other things, makes the weather map appear as the wall behind the announcer.

If your family was affluent enough to possess one of the early color receivers that were compatible with the B&W standard, it's possible they could have seen some of the few color television shows. But people frequently have false memories of such things. Lots of people would tell of seeing events broadcast live when there had been no live broadcast or anything close to it of those events. Things like the Kennedy assassination and Jack Ruby killing Oswald. Neither was broadcast live, but the Oswald killing was something that years later would indeed have been likely to have been covered live, and they've seen so many other events live, that it feels right. Kind of like another generation would tell of listening to a live radio broadcast of the Hindenburg crash.

Humans are prone to take cues from their memories of fashion and the relative luminosities of popular colors to create memories of color from black and white images, according to what they expected to see. Since they often guess correctly, a child's comment about the "color" of a dress on a B&W television wouldn't be surprising. Humans have been shown to have better recall of scenes in color than the same scene in black and white. There might be some value in enhancing memory by mentally coding for reasonably expected colors in a scene.

The color receivers of the early 60's weren't all that good and were hard to keep adjusted. A lot of them were "color" mainly by virtue of everything appearing green.

Gee. That reminded me of one of the classic semi-scams of that day. An outfit offered a sheet of plastic that you could slap up on the black and white TV screen and would give you color TV. It was pliable plastic with three graduated broad bands of color tint, blue across the top, a sort of pink across the middle, and green across the bottom third. If the scene was of people walking in a pasture, it kind of looked right some of the time.

That is not to be confused with the other plastic sheet associated with the TV show, Winky-Dink, the show parents hated. Winky-Dink was a 50's/early 60's cartoon character. The gag was the you were supposed to send for a clear plastic sheet and crayons (send 50-cents to Winky-Dink, Box 5, New York, New York). You stuck the sheet to the screen and drew in whatever the character needed to get out of trouble, a ladder or whatever. You didn't have to be all that smart of a kid to figure out that you really didn't need the plastic sheet. You could just draw on the screen with your crayons. Telling your parents that the "man on TV" told you to do it didn't help at all.
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N7NBB
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2010, 07:06:33 AM »

Long before color television there was (and still is) an optical illusion that produced COLORS where there was only Black and White. It was a circular paper disk consisting of half being black and the other half being mostly white, with concentric arcs (lines) of black.  When spun at a precise speed, it tricks the mind into seeing colors.  This was shown on black & white t.v. many times, and the people at home saw colors. In fact one inventor working on this phenomena, even was able to garner financial support to develop a mechanical disk that consumers would mount in front of their b&w t.v. sadly, for the investors, but luckily for the rest of us in never "caught on". Also certain dual stroboscopic effects like looking at a turning wagon wheel, through another turning wagon wheel, or certain whirling machine parts, would sometimes create that same oddity and produce "COLORS" in the mind of the viewer. Still, it was often very amusing to see what ringing effects Johnny Carson could cause... and also to a lesser degree JAY STEWART from the old "Let's Make A Deal" loved to wear stripes (probably for that same reason).
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WB5JEO
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2010, 09:30:43 PM »

If you go way back, pre-television. There was some work done to produce color movies with black and white film. One way used a transparent disk with concentric primary color circles. You shot through it with it mounted on the lens. To get the color projected, the same disk had to mounted exactly right on the projector lens. There's very little information available on it, but I've found a couple of references. I have some old correspondence between my grandfather and another experimenter and one of the old disks.

I suspect it was way too touchy a system to be very practical and that things like the Kinemacolor system of sequential frames recording through a rotating wheel and playing back the same way (at 48 fps to get back to an effective 16 fps) was more reliable. The idea goes way back to before 1900 but obviously couldn't be very effective before panchromatic film was invented. Something similar was actually done with television, but never got adopted. Similar field-sequential color television cameras provided color television on some Apollo missions.
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KG4YMC
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2010, 04:37:42 PM »

thanks again guys, learn something new everday. Perhaps my brother actually did see the red dress on a tv show in mt heathy when he was three. would have been around l956. MY dad  was working for krosley radio up there at the time and claims there may have been some experimentation done  locally back then. I know on photography  type effect , at Thomas Edison Musium in Ft Myers you see those projectors with the primary colors
wheels.   Oh, at daytona beach during my
 miuc photography class , when  slide showes music, way before mtv..   anyway he would use an rotating polizied lens in front of the old kodak ethagraphic slide projects and had phtographed crystals and had them "moveing " was neat effect back  then. also had to align six   projectors on screen useing a spider image , when they merged we had our slide projectors ready for show. anyone remember casset tapes and  3m?  recorders for syn shows?    anyway didn
't  mean to ramble but this was fascinating  as spock would say ..   now I got to get that plastic sheet , after  I harvest my spaghettie from the tree.. hi hi 73   kg4ymc
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KE4DRN
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2010, 06:37:17 PM »

hi,

this will bring back some memories

http://www.amazon.com/Winky-Dink-You-Magic-Kit/dp/B00005UO7I

73 james
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