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Author Topic: keyer question ?  (Read 1996 times)
NX2D
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Posts: 19




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« on: April 16, 2010, 10:18:16 AM »

This may be a strange question to some of you and I am not looking to get whipped. hi hi But is there a such a thing as a "NON-Iambic keyer?" I would love to find one, I don't use iambic and the least little delay in the movement of your hands at high speed adds a completion dit or dah. There is nothing wrong with Iambic but I just prefer a keyer that would produce dit's and dah's with no auto complete.

If anyone has any schematics of such a keyer, I would be interested in seeing them. I would be willing to build one because I do not thing that a non-iambic keyer exist.

Thanks,
NX2D
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WB5JEO
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Posts: 805




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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2010, 12:08:10 PM »

Why go to the effort? If you use a single paddle key (really single-lever) with any iambic keyer, it can't produce the iambic function, since only one pole can be closed-contact at any moment.
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AA4PB
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2010, 12:28:38 PM »

Can you switch your keyer to mode A? That should get rid of the auto complete feature. As stated above, you should also be able to just hook up a non-squeeze paddle and get rid of the iambic feature.
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K9ZMD
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Posts: 169




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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2010, 10:14:10 PM »

The answer is . . . yes, a non-iambic paddle set exists, otherwise known as a single lever paddle.  The single lever construction pre-dates iambic paddles by years.

I have two Vibroplex paddles that "book end" my computer keyboard.  On the left is a Vibroplex Vibrokeyer (single lever) that I've wired for cootie-style sending, and on the right is the Vibroplex Iambic for electronic keying.  They are identical at a quick glance, but the double lever on the Iambic is the clue. 

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K7MH
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Posts: 328




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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2010, 12:03:10 AM »

quoted:
"There is nothing wrong with Iambic but I just prefer a keyer that would produce dit's and dah's with no auto complete.

If anyone has any schematics of such a keyer, I would be interested in seeing them. I would be willing to build one because I do not thing that a non-iambic keyer exist."
---
It is not so much the keyer that is iambic, it is the key. The keyer is just doing what the key is telling it to do so to speak.
As mentioned a single lever key such as the Vibroplex "Vibrokeyer" is not an iambic key. There are several single lever keys out there at various prices you can find if you search for it. Begali has the Simplex Mono, Kent has one, there are many out there.
It is not that you want "no auto complete" as of course all dits and dahs auto complete with an electronic keyer. If you turn off the iambic mode in a keyer, and use an iambic or dual lever key, it is a pretty weird feeling to me. Just not right in my estimation.
Not sure how fast "fast" is to you with your current key but you might want to increase the spring tension a tad and/or increase the travel a tad so the levers are not quite so touchy. It can be a delicate balance to get things just right.
It is my understanding that the really high speed guys prefer single lever keys, not iambic.
For myself, at around 20-25 wpm it doesn't much matter either way.
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NX2D
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2010, 06:20:28 AM »

Thanks, guy's. Helpful information. I do have a single lever but I guess I will have to do some mods on it. It is so light that you can not use it without chasing the unit all over the table. I will find a way of adding some weight to it or maybe save some cash up and buy a good single lever paddle. I will look into some of the brands that have been mentioned.

Thanks for the insight.
NX2D
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K7MH
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Posts: 328




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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2010, 09:13:22 AM »

"I do have a single lever but I guess I will have to do some mods on it. It is so light that you can not use it without chasing the unit all over the table. I will find a way of adding some weight to it"
---
Sometimes you can use automotive wheel balancing weights stuck to the bottom of the base (the underside). It depends on how much clearance the feet will allow.
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VA7CPC
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2010, 04:24:15 PM »

Another alternative to keep the paddle stationary:

. . . Put some Velcro on the bottom of the paddle, and complementary Velcro stuck to the desk.

Double-sided tape comes in handy for this job.

Just for information:

. . . What paddle do you have?

               Charles
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W4YA
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Posts: 317




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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2010, 06:11:25 AM »

First, I have an iambic keyer and a double paddle key that I have used for years. I hate iambic keying. So, I just don't close both paddles at the same time, and I have no problems with it even at higher speeds which I normally send.

I don't see any reason for you to buy another key and keyer.

But if you want to build a simple non-iambic keyer, Google W9TO keyer or 9TO keyer. Or look for it on the QST archives.

Jim W4YA
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AA4F
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2010, 05:22:08 PM »

Find out where you want it and put a dab of silicone sealer on each foot.  If you want to move it, just pry it up and peal the silicone off of the feet and desk!

Les, AA4F
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K9ZMD
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Posts: 169




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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2010, 06:12:14 PM »

. . . It is so light that you can not use it without chasing the unit all over the table. . . .
A little spit on each foot.  Low tech, old fashioned, and generally effective.
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K0RS
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Posts: 704




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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2010, 10:39:49 PM »

There is nothing wrong with Iambic but I just prefer a keyer that would produce dit's and dah's with no auto complete.


I think you're getting some distinct functions of your keyer mixed up.  All keyers are auto-complete.  They wouldn't be keyers if they didn't complete the letter's elements.  All that auto complete means is you will get a full length element, a dit or a dah, no matter how briefly you touch the corresponding paddle lever.  Some keyers let you defeat the auto-complete on the dah circuit so you can emulate bug sending.

It sounds like your source of frustration is dit memory or dah memory.  That is an integral part of iambic sending.  It means that if you touch the opposite paddle from the one you're holding closed, the keyer will recall the keystroke and insert the element at the appropriate spot.  Your timing doesn't have to be perfect, just close.  For instance you can touch the dit paddle while holding closed the dah side and insert a dot at the appropriate time to send a "Y" or a "Q".  This is only possible with a dual lever paddle, and it can be a pain if you tend to touch the opposite paddle lever inadvertently.  With a single lever paddle you can't close both circuits simultaneously, you must choose a dit or a dah... no "squeeze keying."  Older tube-type keyers like the Hallicrafters HA-1 and the Eico didn't have element memory. Your timing had to be better and you had to insert the opposite element at exactly the right time or it would simply disappear.  

It sounds as if you're are using a dual lever paddle.  Substituting a single lever paddle should end your frustration.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 11:04:46 PM by Larry Clark » Logged
K0RS
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Posts: 704




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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2010, 10:50:16 PM »

quoted:
It is not so much the keyer that is iambic, it is the key. The keyer is just doing what the key is telling it to do so to speak.

No, that's exactly backwards.  It's the keyer..the electronic circuit...that's iambic.  A key is either dual lever or single lever.  Technically, there is no such thing as an "iambic" key.  It requires a dual lever key to exploit the iambic function supported by the keyer.   Admittedly, "iambic key" it is a term of convenience and used frequently.  It's a bit anal insisting on the distinction  Roll Eyes and I don't think anyone ever got 40 lashes for saying "iambic key."  Wink

http://www.morsex.com/pubs/iambicmyth.pdf
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 11:02:27 PM by Larry Clark » Logged
IK0YGJ
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Posts: 43


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« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2010, 01:46:50 PM »

... of course, yes.
The non-iambic is the single lever and ... guess what: since 2009, the single lever paddle is outperforming in the High Speed Telegraphy World Championship.
Here is an example of how "easy" is to transmit in the 50WPM range without iambic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-lKKk5rx78

73 de Carlo IK0YGJ

---------------
Download your free copy of "Zen and the Art of Radiotelegraphy" here:
http://www.qsl.net/ik0ygj/enu/index.html
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K0RS
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Posts: 704




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« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2010, 05:38:13 PM »

I probably should emend my comments on auto complete in a previous message.  As AA4PB noted in his post, make sure your keyer isn't in mode B. A keyer in Mode B has the "feature" of adding an extra, and opposite, element at the end of an iambically formed character.  Known as "dot queuing," many ops also call this "auto complete."  How this is ever seen as an advantage is beyond me.  Time for someone to chime in "But I love mode B!"

If you're struggling with iambic sending, definitely make sure your keyer isn't in mode B.  Mode B is rare enough that most keyers incorporated by OEMs into their radios don't even support it.  However many standalone keyers, such as the Logikey, do.  Sometimes you hear someone on the air struggling to send CQ in mode B, "dah di dah dit   dah dah di dah DIT."

I'm sure it's possible to train yourself to take advantage of this dubious feature.  IMO, keyers should make sending Morse easier not more difficult.  It seems to me iambic sending, while offering few advantages, just introduces increased opportunites for error...and Mode B doubly so.   If you're using a dual lever paddle and wondering where all those extra dits are coming from, make sure to check your keyer's configuration.
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