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Author Topic: '10 Ford Flex Igintion noise  (Read 3483 times)
KF2TI
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« on: May 23, 2010, 08:55:54 AM »

Installed my 7000 in a 2010 V6 equipped Ford Flex and am experiencing ignition noise, primarily on 40m  This engine has no main ignition coil.  Each spark plug has its own coil pack, running off a central wiring harness with what seem to be two 3/4" long 12 gauge wires  Can not run ferrites to each plug as the wires are not long enough.  Can put on a large type 31 ferrite for the front wiring harness that feeds the coil packs, but the rear harness is literally buried underneath a plethora of parts

Thoughts, comments, suggestions

Thanks  KF2TI
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AC2RC
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2010, 10:53:14 AM »

The DSP of the 7000 doesn't handle it ? Check www.k0bg.com
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KF2TI
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2010, 01:37:30 PM »

To a degree it does but it just about kills off the weaker signals   I did preview K)bg's siet  The car is less than 5 months old so I doubt the wiring is already shot and since I can't get to the raer of the engibe compartment without major deinstallation of engine components, I may be stuck with what I have
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 01:43:12 PM by Steven Adell » Logged
K0BG
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2010, 02:21:12 PM »

Not really. If you do a little bonding of the hood, and exhaust system, you can reduce the level of ignition RFI to an acceptable level.

The truth is, Ford's COP units are the cream of the crop as far as RFI is concerned. They already contain a chunk of ferrite, and the coil spring holding the HV contact to the plug, also acts like a choke. The primary wiring has a small drain wire imbedded in the harness, and additional shielding doesn't help much.

You can bead the EEC, but it has almost no effect as the choke can't be but one turn (≈70 ohms impedance).

The other issue is the antenna itself. Remember, there will always be some common mode, and if the RF can get out, it can get in too. What is the antenna, and how is it mounted?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 05:18:18 AM by Alan Applegate » Logged

KE3WD
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2010, 05:17:59 PM »

First, be absolutely positive it is indeed ignition noise.  With the Ford, it likely is not.  But other things can make one think that it is, simply because the noise comes with engine run and changes with RPM. 

Does the interference happen when the engine is stopped but the ignition key is turned on?  If so, suspect ye olde Ford fuelpump noise...

Alternator noise is another possible source. 
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KF2TI
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 10:28:35 AM »

First let me state this is a company car and the caompany got REALLY REALLY PO'd when I drilled 4 holes inside to mount the radio.  I had to sign a contract that if I wanted my radios installed absolutely ZERO holes anywhere

That being said, the antenna, a Little Tarheel is sitting midroof atop a 4 magnet mobile mount (YES I KNOW)  The mounts is grounded in two places by 3/4" braid  running approx 1 1/2 - 2' to the roof racks which are mounted to a steel beam to the car and show good grounding potentials  The radio is grounded to the frame as is the ground wire

I know it is not alternator whine  The "popping" does increase with engine rpms and is NOT present when the ignition is off

Listening to the soundbites, I can't tell the differnec between ignition noise and fuel pump noise

Again, I appreciate any suggestion short of drilling holes  Ther can be NO drilling of the holes or anything that leaves permanent, irrepairable marks.  The rusty circles on the roof that the magnets will leave is not considered irrepairable

It may be I just have to grin and bear it due to the limitations I have to work under
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AC2RC
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2010, 01:43:06 PM »

The Ford fuel pump problem was solved about 8 years ago !!
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W3LK
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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2010, 06:40:32 PM »

First let me state this is a company car and the caompany got REALLY REALLY PO'd when I drilled 4 holes inside to mount the radio.  I had to sign a contract that if I wanted my radios installed absolutely ZERO holes anywhere

That being said, the antenna, a Little Tarheel is sitting midroof atop a 4 magnet mobile mount (YES I KNOW)  The mounts is grounded in two places by 3/4" braid  running approx 1 1/2 - 2' to the roof racks which are mounted to a steel beam to the car and show good grounding potentials  The radio is grounded to the frame as is the ground wire

I know it is not alternator whine  The "popping" does increase with engine rpms and is NOT present when the ignition is off

Listening to the soundbites, I can't tell the differnec between ignition noise and fuel pump noise

Again, I appreciate any suggestion short of drilling holes  Ther can be NO drilling of the holes or anything that leaves permanent, irrepairable marks.  The rusty circles on the roof that the magnets will leave is not considered irrepairable

It may be I just have to grin and bear it due to the limitations I have to work under

With that antenna installation, the odds of getting rid of your noise are pretty much non-existant.
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K0BG
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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2010, 05:57:52 AM »

Quote
First let me state this is a company car and the company got REALLY REALLY PO'd when I drilled 4 holes inside to mount the radio.  I had to sign a contract that if I wanted my radios installed absolutely ZERO holes anywhere

Steve, perhaps I'm a doubting thomas, but that's one contract I'd like to have a copy of.

Over the years I've been operating mobile (35+), I have installed radios in 5 company cars. Not once did I ask permission. Not once was I ever challenged. In fact, the only negative reaction I ever got was from one of my bosses asking me why the bands weren't open!

The noise you're hearing is from the ignition system, and not the fuel pump. As mentioned, that problem was solved in 2002. The main reason you're having as much as you are, besides the bonding, is common mode current flowing on the coax. The major reason is excessive ground loss. Remember too, if the RF can get out, it can get in too. In other words, the coax is acting like part of the antenna.

Lastly, you're not going to solve the issues with ground straps unless they're long enough to be radials; a ridiculous notion in a mobile scenario. It isn't a DC ground you need, it is a ground plane! And that isn't a mag mount!
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KF2TI
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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2010, 10:03:21 AM »

"..as user of a fleet vehicle, you understand and  agree that there may be no modifications, whatsoever, to the interior or exterior of your fleet provided vehicle...the only exceptions are the installation of a GPS navagational device and / or a hands free cell phone device, should one not be provided.  Decals, stickers, etc may be applied to the external area(s) of the fleet vehicle provided they are not of a sexual nature and can be removed when siad vehilce is turned in or requested by fleet manager.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, may any holes be drilled into the interior or exterior of the car body, fo any reason, at any time.....Any physical alterations to the interior or exterior of the fleet vehicle will rsult in financial assessment to recoup monies expended to repair vehicle and will result in loss of use of fleet vehicles in the future.....

The last vehilce I had, I put three screw holes in to hold the mounting bracket.  You could not see them, I received a written report from fleet management about them

Looks like I'll just suck it up, grin and bear it  Oh well  At least I have my radios

Appreciate the help and insight

Steve KF2TI


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K0BG
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2010, 01:52:47 PM »

Who is the leasing company?

I don't lease vehicles, period! I didn't even when I had my own business, and could write it off. The main reason was that the break even point was always too low with respect to mileage. In my case, the average yearly mileage was well over 50 k, and my CPA sure proved to me who was making money on the deal. In case you missed the point, it was the leasing company.

By the way, I have a copy of Honda's lease documents, and there are no such provisions.
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KJ4OBR
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2010, 07:46:14 AM »

His company leased the vehicle from a company that does fleet leases. Totally different deal than a personal lease agreement. Leasing makes sense for super mega corps, does not make sense for small business or personal situations.

 


Who is the leasing company?

I don't lease vehicles, period! I didn't even when I had my own business, and could write it off. The main reason was that the break even point was always too low with respect to mileage. In my case, the average yearly mileage was well over 50 k, and my CPA sure proved to me who was making money on the deal. In case you missed the point, it was the leasing company.

By the way, I have a copy of Honda's lease documents, and there are no such provisions.
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WI7B
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2010, 02:18:57 PM »


Hold on.  I haven't heard any discussion about your use of the 100 step noise blanker o the 700.  That's not DSP. It's the separate noise blanker (NL) used to filter pulsed noise sources like ignition noise.

I am surprised that not one level of the 100 steps available in the 7000 does not dissipate the pulsed noise.
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KF2TI
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2010, 06:45:27 PM »

And it will, at the expense of the received signal


Essentailly damned if I do and damed if I don't
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WI7B
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2010, 11:18:14 AM »


That's the response you gave to AC2RC about the DSP.  I'm talking about the 100-step noise blanker which is only sensitive and only operates on pulsed, periodic noise.  This does not interfere with CW or SSB received signals.

73,

---* Ken
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