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Author Topic: No HOA but neighborhood has covenants  (Read 11715 times)
W0MT
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Posts: 172




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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2010, 11:06:45 PM »

CC&Rs normally contain a severability clause. This clause says if any provision or provisions of the CC&Rs are unenforceable, that provision or those provisions are severed from the CC&Rs and the remaining provisions remain enforceable.

What this means is that failure to enforce restrictions on length of grass does not stop them from enforcing antenna restrictions. What they cannot do is enforce antenna restrictions on one home and not enforce them on another.
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WA4VBC
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Posts: 27




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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2010, 05:31:12 AM »

In most places the covenants are on file in the county courthouse.  I would personally check it and not leave it to a real estate agent who may not be familiar with antennas, towers etc,  Just my opinion.  Sid, 
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N2EY
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Posts: 3878




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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2010, 07:39:00 AM »

Well, my real estate agent said that she can get copies of the covenants so I'm definitely trying to find one without them.  But, should we not be able to find a covenant free neighborhood we'll be looking for neighborhoods that say nothing about antennas.  If that doesn't work, she said what we do is look at neighborhoods and that have covenants banning antennas with no HOA and then take note of whether or not all the covenants are being enforced.  As she put it, they can't really selectively enforce just certain covenants.  She said I could use that as leverage...for instance - they tell me to take my vertical antenna down then I tell them they have to remove all the basketball hoops or whatever covenant is blatantly being violated and everyone comes to an agreement.

The first part is good advice. The second part isn't.

The RE market today is a buyer's market. You're not trying to sell a house, and your XYL's income alone qualifies you for a mortgage, so you are a solid-gold buyer.

If I were in your situation, I'd require that the agent show me ONLY houses with no anti-antenna restrictions - and give me a copy of any restrictions on any house shown, for me to read and to show to my RE lawyer.

NO EXCEPTIONS.

There is no point in looking at no-antennas houses in your situation. The agent doesn't think like a ham, s/he thinks like an agent. Remember that the agent doesn't make a penny until a house is sold.

"No restrictions at all" is great but few houses fit that bill; my 60 year old house has deed restrictions. (Nothing about antennas). What matters is finding a house where there are no restrictions on the kind of antennas you want to put up.

The agent probably has lots of homes with no-antennas restrictions that aren't selling for other reasons, and wants to move them. That's NYP = Not Your Problem.

73 es GL de Jim, N2EY
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W6RMK
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Posts: 651




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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2010, 07:25:52 AM »

I am aware of at least one case where a ham with a house with CC&Rs and a many years defunct HOA had a neighbor file suit to enforce the CC&Rs individually.  The neighbor was an attorney, which greatly shifts the cost equation.. his own time was effectively free, so the usual disincentive to file suit (paying the lawyer) didn't exist.

About this "trying to get a copy of the CC&Rs or deed restrictions"... in California, you have to be given a copy in your hot little hands (no "it's on file") before closing.  Since the seller's going to have to come up with the complete set eventually, there's no point in them being vague, lazy, or obstructive about it it earlier (particularly in today's buyer's market).   Not that people don't sign the form saying they've received the copy when they haven't (along with the eleventy-seven other forms when you buy a house and finance it).. but it's a pretty feeble excuse to say "we couldn't find it"

here's the law in CA:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1368-1368.1
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KE7AXC
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Posts: 10




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« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2010, 08:36:54 AM »

Regarding copies of the covenants....

I've been looking for some property and found that the title companies serving that area have covenants and plats available on-line so I've had no need to go to the courthouse or even ask the agent when browsing the houses for sale on the net (and 500 miles away).  Its just been a matter of knowing the subdivision name, and most of the listings will include that.  One definitely doesn't want to wait until closing to find out what is in there.  There are lots of things besides antenna restrictions you may or may not agree with ... like having your garage door open only when someone or a vehicle is going in or out, etc.  Waiting until the deal is almost done is a bit too late.
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K7CB
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Posts: 81




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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2010, 03:45:10 AM »

Unfortunately, our first time out didn't yield much.  We looked at six or seven places and everything in the non-HOA/deed restricted neighborhoods fit the bill.  It wasn't the neighborhood that was the problem...it was the houses.  All of them needed work that we simply don't have the money to do it with.  All the houses we liked that were move in ready were, unfortunately, deed restricted/HOA neighborhoods.  So, the search continues.
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W9PMZ
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Posts: 573


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« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2010, 09:02:30 AM »

I kind of went through this.

I had approval.  A subsuquent board tried to unapprove.

It is specified the approval process in the CC&R.  But I pointed out there is no unapproval process; in other words, once it is approved, it is approved so long as the contract is in effect.  Their lawyer agreed.  Case closed.

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
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N2EY
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Posts: 3878




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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2010, 10:23:49 AM »

We looked at six or seven places and everything in the non-HOA/deed restricted neighborhoods fit the bill.  It wasn't the neighborhood that was the problem...it was the houses.  All of them needed work that we simply don't have the money to do it with. 

Couple of options there:

1) Make an offer based on the cost of the work. For example, offer $180,000 (or less) for a $200,000 house that needs $20,000 worth of work. It's a buyer's market!

2) DIY whatever you can. Live with whatever you can. Fix up over time.

3) Consider the cost of HOA fees etc. as part of the cost of a restricted house. They're not cheap and they're not deductible. The total cost of a restricted house may surprise you.

4) All houses need work eventually. In a restricted house, work often costs more because you have to get a specific paint, a specific door or window, etc., as well as HOA approval.

73 es GL de Jim, N2EY
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AA4PB
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Posts: 12832




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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2010, 11:08:33 AM »

1) Make an offer based on the cost of the work. For example, offer $180,000 (or less) for a $200,000 house that needs $20,000 worth of work. It's a buyer's market!

Problem is, you have to have the $20,000 cash to get the work done. They aren't going to include that cost in your mortgage. You also have to make sure that they will give you a mortgage on a house needing $20,000 worth of work. It depends on what kind of work it is.
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AA4PB
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Posts: 12832




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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2010, 11:14:19 AM »

In a similar vain, some time ago I had house where I had finished the basement myself. There was a fire that took out quite a bit of it. The insurance company was quite willing to pay me the estimated repair costs to do it myself - I stood to make a good sum for the work. The problem was that the insurance company wouldn't pay me a dime until the job was completed and inspected. I didn't have the money to buy the materials so I had to let a contractor do the work.
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WB2FVE
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Posts: 1




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« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2010, 02:38:27 PM »

If there is no homeowners association, it is usually up to the individual homeowners to go it on their own.  The theory is that the covenants both benefit and bind everyone equally.  Any individual owner, in most states, can bring a lawsuit against a fellow neighbor to enforce a restrictive covenant.

Find an experienced real estate attorney and have him/her review the document.

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KG6YV
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Posts: 510




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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2010, 01:38:58 PM »

I have lived in a neighborhood with CC&Rs but no HOA for 26 years.  The only CC&R they have was put in place in the 1980's by the cable company.  It was to completely eliminate anyone from putting up an outdoor TV antenna.

Anyway, I have been operating for almost 25 years now with a 133 ft. Carolina Windom strung between some judiciously placed (and now grown) trees.  I also have a Cushcraft R-6000 with the base above my fireplace chimney (~18 ft)  From the street the R-6000 is visible but not obnoxious.  I operate 80-6 meters without any problems, sometimes using 1200W on the HF bands for DX.

Noone has ever said anything, I think most of the residents don't even know about the covenant.  They all have satellite TV or cable, the power is all underground and I had only one RFI incident when one close neighbor's son picked me up on his computer speakers.

I recommend having the real estate agent check for covenants (they know how).  Drive around the neighborhood and see if anyone living there has violated any covenant.  That will tell you if there is any temperment for enforcement. 

You cannot preclude the possibility of any problem but you can do some intelligence gathering before you buy...

Greg
KG6YV

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KD4LLA
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Posts: 457




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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2010, 09:59:04 AM »

I own a small plot of land near Westcliffe, CO.  We, as in the owners association, have spent upwards of $20,000 defending a lawsuit brought on by a smaller group of owners.  In the end no  one was satisfied and only the lawyers made money.  DO NOT BUY anything that even remotely looks like there is a HOA or covenants.
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W0MT
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Posts: 172




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« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2010, 11:39:40 AM »

I own a small plot of land near Westcliffe, CO.  We, as in the owners association, have spent upwards of $20,000 defending a lawsuit brought on by a smaller group of owners.  In the end no  one was satisfied and only the lawyers made money.  DO NOT BUY anything that even remotely looks like there is a HOA or covenants.

It would be interesting to know more about this like what were they suing to get, why did the HOA decide to defend, what was the outcome, etc.
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KD4LLA
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Posts: 457




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« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2010, 12:47:14 PM »

"It would be interesting to know more about this like what were they suing to get, why did the HOA decide to defend, what was the outcome, etc."

Small group of owners sued to keep cattle out.  Colorado has a "open range grazing" law, if you don't want cattle on your land, YOU must fence them out.  The HOA defended it because, 1) fencing is very costly for 15,000 acres, and 2)to be able to keep a "agricultural" property tax status.  The exemption dropped my property tax to 2.5 percent of what it had been.  The outcome is that the affected property owners land cannot be considered as part of an overall HOA ranching lease.

Bottom line, the group of owners that sued still need to fence cattle out (due to open range), the HOA can lease the surrounding properties and are not required to fence-out any cattle, and only lawyers made money.  Do whatever you can to stay away from home owners associations, of any kind.

I know what you thinking... how can I be on both sides of an issue?  We, the owners, would get rid of the association if it were not for the fact it is the only controlling authority for roads, easements, and property boundary disputes.  The other thing is the HOA could care less that I could put up a couple of 100 foot towers.

Mike
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