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Author Topic: 1000+ Miles on 1 Watt  (Read 24503 times)
VE3PLO
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Posts: 158




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« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2010, 08:52:16 PM »

Amps are for loosers Wink Their just like Viagra ;P
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KD7KGX
Member

Posts: 92




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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2010, 09:31:40 PM »

Congrats on your contact.

I've worked Tanzania from here in a Seattle suburb on 5 watts (CW) and have also worked the South Pole on 5w using PSK31.

Think about whether you could see a 5w lightbulb on a satellite that was 10,000 miles away... I don't think you could. THAT is pretty amazing, isn't it?
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N2EY
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Posts: 3835




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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2010, 03:06:10 AM »


Think about whether you could see a 5w lightbulb on a satellite that was 10,000 miles away... I don't think you could.

Depends on what you're using for a receiver and what the background looks like.

Also consider that regular incandescent light bulbs are incredibly inefficient at converting electricity into visible light - about 5 to 10%, depending on the lamp size and other factors.

So to get 5 watts of light output, you need about 50 to 100 watts of input. And we rate lamps by input.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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ZENKI
Member

Posts: 906




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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2010, 01:20:59 AM »

Send the bank check and flowers to the guys who do the receiving!!

QRP operators are "legends in their own minds""

If the operator who receives these  QRP operators turn their power down to the same level 99% of the time there would no contact, and that says it all.

I regularly test contest operators using QRP power,  there are a lot of alligator stations out there. Over the last 10 years in numerous
contests K3LR, W3LPL KC1XX and NQ4I have regularly received my 10 milliwatts on the first call. The rest with similar big signals  to mentioned  stations just cant hear as well. I could call K3LR with 5 milliwatts on 15 meters and get 5/9 so they have an exceptional receiving station even when conditions are bad.

Nobody on any simple wire antenna is going to hear me end of story.  I dont believe in QRP power, but I do believe in minimum communications power which I find is in the range of 20 to 50 watts. You can have a QSO  if you running a decent antenna.

A practical communication circuit needs a minimum amount of gain to complete the circuit, qrp power does not satisfy this requirement most of the time. Why beat your head against a brick wall when its just as easy running 20 watts?

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NU4B
Member

Posts: 2154




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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2010, 03:53:16 PM »

Send the bank check and flowers to the guys who do the receiving!!

QRP operators are "legends in their own minds""

If the operator who receives these  QRP operators turn their power down to the same level 99% of the time there would no contact, and that says it all.

I regularly test contest operators using QRP power,  there are a lot of alligator stations out there. Over the last 10 years in numerous
contests K3LR, W3LPL KC1XX and NQ4I have regularly received my 10 milliwatts on the first call. The rest with similar big signals  to mentioned  stations just cant hear as well. I could call K3LR with 5 milliwatts on 15 meters and get 5/9 so they have an exceptional receiving station even when conditions are bad.

Nobody on any simple wire antenna is going to hear me end of story.  I dont believe in QRP power, but I do believe in minimum communications power which I find is in the range of 20 to 50 watts. You can have a QSO  if you running a decent antenna.

A practical communication circuit needs a minimum amount of gain to complete the circuit, qrp power does not satisfy this requirement most of the time. Why beat your head against a brick wall when its just as easy running 20 watts?



Is "ZENKI" a callsign? I don't think you know what QRP operation is all about. Any QRPer that doesn't recognize the receiving capabilities and operating abilities of the operator of the receiving station isn't much of a QRPer. My station doesn't much care what you believe - it operates quite effectively at 5 watts and under. It appears to me (at least in this topic) the only one beating their head against the wall is you. If your not interested - go do something that does interest you.

Practical communications also requires more than an electrical circuit - see if you can figure it out.

In the meantime congratulations to KE7WAV for the excellent work!

Also you will notice I don't post anonymously.
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WX7G
Member

Posts: 5917




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« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2010, 12:45:04 PM »

On 15 meter CW I once worked Japan with 150 mW to a vertical. With 569 on a quiet band I beleive I could have dropped to (if the rig had that capability) to 5 mW and made the QSO. Rather than 40,000 miles per watt it would have exceeded 1 million miles per watt.

I regularly exceed 1000 miles per watt on 160 meters when running a good antenna.
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AB9NZ
Member

Posts: 176




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« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2010, 05:04:28 PM »

"Zenki", I work QRPers on a regular basis with my dipole, and it isn't charity, the joy is as much mine as theirs. I'm curious what mode you're working that no one can hear you. Very best of 73, de Tom AB9NZ  http://radiotelegrapher.posterous.com/
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ZENKI
Member

Posts: 906




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« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2010, 01:17:46 AM »

I work CW and I just find QRP work very frustrating. Its okay for low band interstate work, however it requires patience.
I like working 40 meter CW QRP within Europe or the states and its successful, however DXing is just  very difficult. Thats why I prefer minimum power communications which is usually around 20 to 50 watts. Most stations when not asked never notice the difference when I reduce my power from 100 watts to 20 watts.

I would like to see contest rules cater for this category  and set the upper limit of power at 25 watts MCP(minimum communications power) class. Have you every wondered why most military manpack HF radios are 20 watts, besides the issues of battery power? They do this for good reason because  on just about all HF bands 20 watts  can get the message through. 5 watts is a waste of space on SSB and trying even on CW for intercontinental  work.

I have a K2 and SGC2020 and I have taken my SGC all over the world  and it works great on SSB with simple antennas.

My  point was not really a criticism of people who choose to operate QRP, but the over simplification of how effective it is. Little credit is given to
the stations who  are doing the "receiving" and whose excellent stations and antennas contribute to much of the claimed success by QRP ops.

When I hear of a QRP station who can pick a frequency  and call CQ with 1 watt  and get many takers then I might believer. Invariably every QRP operator chooses the strongest possible stations to call  which automatically ensures  success. You will never hear of a QRP stations bragging that they just worked or called a station running a G5RV at 10 meters.

QRP has its place  on the ham bands just like any mode. However I dont rate it as an effective reliable means of communication. 20 watts of CW on any band is a reliable effective communications mode, even on SSB with simple antennas.


I have worked the East coast USA  and the West coast USA with a miracle whip and 5 watts,,,,,, so I dont need convincing that it can be done!
I just find with a  SGC 2020 and a end fed half wave wire I can just about exchange names and when conditions are good have a ragchew.

Anyway we all know life is too short for QRP, over over !
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NU4B
Member

Posts: 2154




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« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2010, 05:44:19 AM »

Zenki,
 It seems your frustration led you to some generalizations that aren't true. You can't pick some QRPp power level and make general statements. QRP operation is not for everybody. The difference between operating at 1 watt and 5 watts can be dramatic. Just like the difference between operating at 5 and 25 watts. If your comfortable operating at 25 watts out - do it. QRP has been defined for clubs, awards, and contests at 5 watts (10 wats PEP), but that doesn't mean 25 watts compared to 1000 watts isn't QRP.

If your going to DX at standard QRP levels (or lower) you have build a fairly efficient station and learn to know what to do. I think most QRP DX'ers wouldn't say DX'ing is too difficult to do. (If were too easy everybody would do it.) Once you understand that the difficult part is overcoming the competition, not that you can't put a signal into a particular DX location, half the battle is won. Listen to the pileups on any DX'pedition and you will hear many QRP'ers working the DX station. They know what they are doing. Blasting your way through a pileup doesn't work.

There are QRP DX'ers on the DXCC Honor Roll. I have called CQ with 5 watts and generated a pile up. To be honest I have never tried it at 1 watt or 5 milliwatts. (I have worked DX contests with 500 mW.) 2 way QRP contacts happen all the time. Many of these QSO's are made using simple wire antennas. "Great receiving" antennas aren't always on the other side. Did you ever consider a well built, well placed dipole and a couple operators paying attention to propagation will result in a succesfull 2 way QRP QSO?

So if your happy with 25 watts and it works for you that's great. But don't dismiss QRP'ers because YOU find it too difficult. Instead I would suggest you revisit your expectations and mental attitude when trying to work DX, revisit those lessons on how to work DX, antennas, and propagation. I've made over 14,000 QRP QSO's in the last 9.5 years - over 90% of these QSO's were DX contacts. There are many others that have been more successful than me. I've been doing this (operating QRP) for 25 years - if it couldn't be done, I and others would have given up long ago.

When I hear or see someone use the phrase "life's too short for QRP", that tells me all I need to know. I don't mean it to be insulting but phrases like that usually indicate someone that finds it easier to be dismissive rather than take the time to learn how. I hope you take the time to learn how because there's lots of DX out there to work and doing it with 5 watts or 1 watt or 500 mW is great fun and very satisfying - and you learn alot in the process.
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AA4PB
Member

Posts: 12667




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« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2010, 06:01:04 AM »

"Most stations when not asked never notice the difference when I reduce my power from 100 watts to 20 watts."

20W to 100W is 7dB
5W to 20W is 6db

If they can't tell the difference between 100W and 20W then they shouldn't be able to tell the difference between 20W and 5W because its approximately the same amount of difference.



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ZENKI
Member

Posts: 906




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« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2011, 03:40:08 AM »

When I hear you working a pileup of  QRP stations and simple antennas I will believe you. Again its nice taking the credit for the hard work that the  other station is doing the work with big antennas.

At least with 100 watts and a small tribander at low height you can can call CQ on SSB and get a replay and hold a conversation. You cant do this on QRP, when the other station is using simple antennas. Its hard doing this with 100 watts vertical to vertical antenna. Believe me I have gone through this when I was poor student, and I have been licensed for 5 decades. I own a K2 and do a lot of portable operating, but I am not delusional and want to be a sucker for punishment all my ham life.

I am happy that you enjoy QRP work and  thats the great thing about ham radio, we all can have the fun that we want. However if I was going to encourage newcomers to ham radio I would not be encouraging them doing it with QRP. I would encourage them to get a 1 kw amplifier and a 70 ft high tower that makes ham radio as much fun as sitting in front of the fire sipping fine wine and smoking a cigar, or whatever you think is the ultimate experience.

FRANKLY  I dont see how its fun repeating your name 10 times and and trying 15 times to get  your report through! You need  equipment that gets the job done and if that means 10kw ERP so bet it. Propagation is about the laws of physics and trying to bend them   by telling people that 5 watts does the job of a 1kw ERP station  is preaching physics voodoo. Reminds me of EME, i dont hear many EME QRP stations for very good reasons! However sometimes they get lucky when someone fires up a monster dish to make up for their ERP inabilities. Who is doing work  and who takes the credit? I vote for the big  gun who completes the circuit not the guy running on torch batteries on a buddy pole. If the big gun and his antennas were not there most QRP operators would just be part of the noise floor that nobody hears!




Zenki,
 It seems your frustration led you to some generalizations that aren't true. You can't pick some QRPp power level and make general statements. QRP operation is not for everybody. The difference between operating at 1 watt and 5 watts can be dramatic. Just like the difference between operating at 5 and 25 watts. If your comfortable operating at 25 watts out - do it. QRP has been defined for clubs, awards, and contests at 5 watts (10 wats PEP), but that doesn't mean 25 watts compared to 1000 watts isn't QRP.

If your going to DX at standard QRP levels (or lower) you have build a fairly efficient station and learn to know what to do. I think most QRP DX'ers wouldn't say DX'ing is too difficult to do. (If were too easy everybody would do it.) Once you understand that the difficult part is overcoming the competition, not that you can't put a signal into a particular DX location, half the battle is won. Listen to the pileups on any DX'pedition and you will hear many QRP'ers working the DX station. They know what they are doing. Blasting your way through a pileup doesn't work.

There are QRP DX'ers on the DXCC Honor Roll. I have called CQ with 5 watts and generated a pile up. To be honest I have never tried it at 1 watt or 5 milliwatts. (I have worked DX contests with 500 mW.) 2 way QRP contacts happen all the time. Many of these QSO's are made using simple wire antennas. "Great receiving" antennas aren't always on the other side. Did you ever consider a well built, well placed dipole and a couple operators paying attention to propagation will result in a succesfull 2 way QRP QSO?

So if your happy with 25 watts and it works for you that's great. But don't dismiss QRP'ers because YOU find it too difficult. Instead I would suggest you revisit your expectations and mental attitude when trying to work DX, revisit those lessons on how to work DX, antennas, and propagation. I've made over 14,000 QRP QSO's in the last 9.5 years - over 90% of these QSO's were DX contacts. There are many others that have been more successful than me. I've been doing this (operating QRP) for 25 years - if it couldn't be done, I and others would have given up long ago.

When I hear or see someone use the phrase "life's too short for QRP", that tells me all I need to know. I don't mean it to be insulting but phrases like that usually indicate someone that finds it easier to be dismissive rather than take the time to learn how. I hope you take the time to learn how because there's lots of DX out there to work and doing it with 5 watts or 1 watt or 500 mW is great fun and very satisfying - and you learn alot in the process.
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KB2FCV
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Posts: 1139


WWW

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« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2011, 08:07:30 AM »

I recently made my 1000 mile per watt QRP QSO. We BOTH were running QRP, but I was running 500mw. From NJ to Atlanta GA, the calculation worked out to about 1400 miles per watt. I was running into a dipole about 70 ft up on 40 meters.

QRP does take a lot of patience but it's rewarding when you make a QSO. I don't find I need to repeat 10-15 times to get a name or a report. Not everyone is running towers and beams, especially on the lower bands where I tend to do most of my qrp work.

Yes, there are situations where one station is doing most of the work, especially today in EME where you have single yagi stations operating JT-65 working the 'big guns'. In that respect I am striving to be a 'medium gun' with a 4 yagi array and full legal limit on 2 meters (hopefully QRV in the spring.. FINALLY). Other stations are also doing most of the work when I take a QRP radio out in the field with some sort of antenna tossed haphazardly into the trees.

When I operate QRP I tend to hang out in the QRP frequencies where I run into other people running QRP. Each of us are there because we want to be there. We're having fun.


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NU4B
Member

Posts: 2154




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« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2011, 03:22:27 PM »

When I hear you working a pileup of  QRP stations and simple antennas I will believe you. Again its nice taking the credit for the hard work that the  other station is doing the work with big antennas.

At least with 100 watts and a small tribander at low height you can can call CQ on SSB and get a replay and hold a conversation. You cant do this on QRP, when the other station is using simple antennas. Its hard doing this with 100 watts vertical to vertical antenna. Believe me I have gone through this when I was poor student, and I have been licensed for 5 decades. I own a K2 and do a lot of portable operating, but I am not delusional and want to be a sucker for punishment all my ham life.

I am happy that you enjoy QRP work and  thats the great thing about ham radio, we all can have the fun that we want. However if I was going to encourage newcomers to ham radio I would not be encouraging them doing it with QRP. I would encourage them to get a 1 kw amplifier and a 70 ft high tower that makes ham radio as much fun as sitting in front of the fire sipping fine wine and smoking a cigar, or whatever you think is the ultimate experience.

FRANKLY  I dont see how its fun repeating your name 10 times and and trying 15 times to get  your report through! You need  equipment that gets the job done and if that means 10kw ERP so bet it. Propagation is about the laws of physics and trying to bend them   by telling people that 5 watts does the job of a 1kw ERP station  is preaching physics voodoo. Reminds me of EME, i dont hear many EME QRP stations for very good reasons! However sometimes they get lucky when someone fires up a monster dish to make up for their ERP inabilities. Who is doing work  and who takes the credit? I vote for the big  gun who completes the circuit not the guy running on torch batteries on a buddy pole. If the big gun and his antennas were not there most QRP operators would just be part of the noise floor that nobody hears!

Well in my first post here I said that a QRPer that doesn't credit the receiving station with alot of the work is not much of a QRPer. And I never said anything about 5 watts doing the job of 1000 watts. As far as simple antennas - if I need a yagi to work a new one - I'll use it. I'm like Dxing and contests - I don't spend much time ragchewing. But it doesn't mean I don't ever chat with someone. If there's nothing going on DX wise - I'll call CQ and 99% of the time I'll call CQ QRP. In fact just recently I was calling CQ QRP and worked ZF2SC running QRP also. I was using a windom antenna. We had a nice little chat and didn't repeat anything 10 or 15 times. (And I got an awesome QSL card!) Also recently I called CQ QRP and worked a guy in Maine and we talked about HW-9s for awhile.

I also know that if you have been a ham for 50 years - you know better than some of the points you were attempting to make throughout this topic. haha.

My first rig was a HW-8 which I built waiting for my novice ticket so trying to tell me what can and can't be done with QRP is a bit useless. You can work the world with 5 watts.

Does that mean I think amps are useless? No. They have legit uses. But encouraging a newcomer to get an amp and tower? Your just substituting power for skill and knowledge. Any loser can key a transmitter. I would encourage newcomers to use very low power and help them learn about radios, operating skills, propagation, the rules and regs, learn about antennas, etc.. Then when they knew what they were doing I would let them loose with higher power - oh, wait a minute, we used to do that when we valued learning and education over the profits of big electronic manufacturers.
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KE3W
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Posts: 29


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« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2011, 10:29:04 PM »

Wow ZENKI - we hear you load and clear.  It is apparent you just don't understand the thrill of making a contact on low power.  The great thing about Amateur Radio is all the flavor's available.  You prefer high power - other's prefer low power - so be it.  Now, relax and have another cup of coffee.  You sure have a way of making a thread interesting! Grin
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W7WIK
Member

Posts: 89




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« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2011, 07:26:15 AM »

Wait til the solar cycle opens up... you'll be able to work the world with 5 watts into a wet string.  Wink

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73,
Marco, AA5ET
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