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Author Topic: One licensee, two callsigns? Is this possible?  (Read 11414 times)
K5TED
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« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2010, 07:51:32 AM »

" That means that any former holder, or the surviving family members of any former holder now deceased, can take advantage of the "within-the-two-year-wait" period."

That's interesting to ponder...

So, if I change my call, my old call is cancelled, then the two year waiting period is not only for me, but for any other former holder of that call, or their family? It would get even more interesting should the immediate former holder, and some holder from two iterations back decide on the same day to apply for that call. Then it would go to the random drawing? Would not the immediate former holder have priority?

That actually makes sense in a twisted fashion..

 
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N2EY
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« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2010, 07:43:31 PM »

Given the problem with 2x1 and 1x2 calls, perhaps it's best that the FCC seriously consider the ARRL's proposal to widen the four character call pool by issuing rather strange "dual number" calls, i.e. N05W.  An ARRL rep on either eham or qrz assured me that this is permissible according to ITU and IARU regulations.  This is especially true since the US is one of the few countries with single letter prefixes (K, N, W).  Also, the A series 2x2's are running out in 4 land.

The dual number calls aren't that great on CW, but it'd allow new Extras a shot at a short call.  Why not? 

One problem is that the dual-number calls don't add many to the pool. If add calls of the style letter-number-number-letter, the total number added would be 7800 for the entire USA. That's an increase of less than 18%.  (The total number of 1x2 US amateur calls is 20,280, and the total number of 2x1 US amateur calls is 23,400, for a total of 43,680. There are currently more than 122,000 Extras)


I suggest the following provisions should follow this legislation should it be enacted:

* A new Extra must wait five years before applying for any 1x2 or 2x1.  Okay, this is a bit hypocritical since I didn't have to wait for my callsign.  Still, I don't see any other way to stagger and slow the often frenetic call sign lotteries.  An Extra applicant would be able to choose between an A series 2x2 call or a dual number call right on the application form.  Either choice would be a no-cost, immediate reward option.  Districts that have run out of A series 2x2's will sequentially issue new dual number Extra calls.   

* No club station may hold anything higher than a 1x3.  Yes, this is going to manifestly disappoint contesters.  Still, I see no other way to prevent hoarding.  The call system should benefit individual hams first.  If contesters desire to operate under a 1x2 or 2x1, one operator may informally authorise use of his or her callsign for the contest team.  Almost all the contesters will be Extras anyway, so the informal deputation of a call will most likely not involve lower class operator issues. 

* At the same time, let new Technicians and Generals choose their own 2x3 from a national online database, such as here in Canada.  Open the NA -- NZ pool at the same time.  A call will be issued sequentially if an applicant specifies no preferences.  I got a simply horrible sequential call from the FCC for my first license.  A dread on CW.  Better, then, for a ham to "plan ahead" and pick something easy to send, or their initials etc.


Maybe. The club call thing is a nonstarter; if you force clubs to give up existing 1x2s there will be widespread rejection of the proposal. (Who would you give W1AW to?). If you don't force clubs to give up existing 1x2s there won't be much difference.

FCC has already determined guidelines for what constitutes a club from a licensing standpoint. The trick is to ferret out clubs that exist in name only.

And how about this:

Do not allow Technicians to get new 1x3 vanity calls. Those who have them can keep them, but limit nerw 1x3s to Generals, Advanceds and Extras.

73 de Jim, N2EY (not a vanity call - sequentially issued in 1977, after 10 years as a ham and 7 years as an Extra).

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AB2T
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« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2010, 09:32:19 PM »

And how about this:

Do not allow Technicians to get new 1x3 vanity calls. Those who have them can keep them, but limit nerw 1x3s to Generals, Advanceds and Extras.

Agreed.  However, let the new Techs choose their own 2x3 in compensation.  It's not hard -- Canada has been doing pick-your-own new callsign even before microcomputers and the modern internet.  Yeah, setting up a database would cost the FCC money on a radio service that doesn't pay them back.  Still, the vanity pool will shrink relatively soon.  Better then to give new operators a call that's pleasant to send and not something that looks like the dregs of a Scrabble box. 

Maybe the FCC should hold a "vanity moratorium" for a year or two.  Rather than piecemeal bodge jobs, let's get some NPRM's going and hammer out a more equitable system.  Right now, nothing short of the formal petition process will straighten this mess out. 

73, Jordan (who was issued the sequential call N2UQF -- now you know why I bought a new call!  Ack, horrible.  VA2AIT is long but it can be sent!)



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N2EY
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2010, 06:23:42 AM »

And how about this:

Do not allow Technicians to get new 1x3 vanity calls. Those who have them can keep them, but limit nerw 1x3s to Generals, Advanceds and Extras.

Agreed.  However, let the new Techs choose their own 2x3 in compensation.  It's not hard -- Canada has been doing pick-your-own new callsign even before microcomputers and the modern internet.  Yeah, setting up a database would cost the FCC money on a radio service that doesn't pay them back.  

Which means it isn't going to happen.

As I understand it, the vanity fee simply covers the cost of providing a special service to those who want it. If Techs get theirs free, why not Generals and Extras, as an incentive to upgrade?

Historic trivia: There was, at one time, at least one Technician with a 1x2 call.

Still, the vanity pool will shrink relatively soon.

Why? Sure, the number of hams is growing, but that alone won't shrink the pools.

 Better then to give new operators a call that's pleasant to send and not something that looks like the dregs of a Scrabble box.

In the bad old days most of us had no callsign choice at all. You simply got the next one on the list. We managed.

One thing the vanity call system has all but destroyed is the ability to tell a ham's "vintage" from the callsign. Some may thing that's good, others not so good.

Maybe the FCC should hold a "vanity moratorium" for a year or two.  Rather than piecemeal bodge jobs, let's get some NPRM's going and hammer out a more equitable system.  Right now, nothing short of the formal petition process will straighten this mess out..

I see no reason for a moratorium. It would only make things worse.

For example, suppose a ham is waiting for a particular call to be available, or for any call in a particular call region, etc. The call is in the 2 year queue and every day it gets closer to being available. Then, just as the ham is about to file the application, there's a moratorium. Is that fair? I think not!

Better to come up with a new system and put it through the process.

(btw, we can't "get some NPRMs going". Doesn't work like that. We can submit proposals to FCC but only they can create an Notice of Proposed Rule Making).  

73, Jordan (who was issued the sequential call N2UQF -- now you know why I bought a new call!  Ack, horrible.  VA2AIT is long but it can be sent!)
[/quote]

Why is N2UQF horrible? Seems perfectly easy to send to me. The Q and F have a nice reverse-rhythm pattern.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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W3HF
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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2010, 09:38:47 AM »

Historic trivia: There was, at one time, at least one Technician with a 1x2 call.

Paul Mangus, W9BO. Held the call (as a Tech) from late 1957 to 1972. (Technically the callbooks don't show the license class prior to Fall 67, but since Fall 67 shows him as a Tech, he must have been a Tech for the 10 previous years.)

The rest of the story (as Paul Harvey would say) is that Paul Mangus was originally issued 9BO in 1920 or 1921. He became W9BO when the W prefix was added in 1928, but his listing as W9BO disappeared from callbooks in 1931. (W9BO was reissued to Carol Parks in 1932, but that listing disappeared in 1946.)

I can't tell if Mangus dropped out completely in 1931 or just changed districts. But he must have been unlicensed for at least part of the period between 1931 and 1957 as his old license class would not have been converted to the Technician license he held for those last 15 years. So he must have only taken the Tech test when he rejoined amateur radio, but in spite of that the FCC reissued him his old call.

My notes say that I've found other similar cases, but this is the one I can quote easily and quickly.

Okay, my turn on "historic trivia": There was also, at least one time, a Novice with a W 1x3 call.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 09:42:13 AM by Stephen Melachrinos » Logged
AB2T
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Posts: 246




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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2010, 02:07:35 PM »

Which means it [2x3 call choice for new operators] isn't going to happen.

As I understand it, the vanity fee simply covers the cost of providing a special service to those who want it. If Techs get theirs free, why not Generals and Extras, as an incentive to upgrade?
(my brackets)

Then make "vanity 2x3's" an additional-cost option.  Allow new hams to buy into the 2x3 pool through the current vanity system soon after examination.  I'd pay for a national amateur radio database with online vanity call selection, application, and processing all in one place.  Also, why not handle renewals, change-of-address, and name changes on the same website?  A one click, one domain name stop for all ham radio administrative needs.

Would it be that bad if the ten-year vanity fee increased to $20 to pay for these services?  I'd gladly pay.  Nevertheless, you're right: this isn't going to happen simply because current vanity holders aren't going to pay even a few extra dollars for an expansion of the amateur radio administration system.  Also, it would be unfair for the vanity fee to contribute to a service that all hams can use.  Still, there has to be some streamlining of the administrative process.

I see no reason for a moratorium. It would only make things worse.

For example, suppose a ham is waiting for a particular call to be available, or for any call in a particular call region, etc. The call is in the 2 year queue and every day it gets closer to being available. Then, just as the ham is about to file the application, there's a moratorium. Is that fair? I think not!

Good point.  I shouldn't comment since I entered my application right when the vanity program began.  Nevertheless, if someone desires a call and is willing to wait years to get it, he or she should have that chance.  I'm surprised that people would pay an application fee year after year to get just one call.  Still, if that's what a person wants he or she should be able to fight for that call. 

The complexities of the call-sign system should not stop proposals for reform from percolating and perhaps making their way to the FCC for consideration.  I would like to get a petition going for the reform of the vanity system and proposals for easier online ham radio administration, but I don't understand the petition process well enough.  Perhaps there is a primer on a ham radio site.

Why is N2UQF horrible? Seems perfectly easy to send to me. The Q and F have a nice reverse-rhythm pattern.

That's true.  I never thought of that.  I just thought N2UQF was clumsy.  I also wanted to make a fresh start as an Extra and leave my "Novice" years behind (okay, I started as a Tech Plus, but for all intents those first two years were my Novice years).  Perhaps the biggest motivator was the fact that a good number of the older hams were ready to change their calls as soon as the vanity program went into effect.  Of course, an impressionable high school student wants to be a "grown-up", right?  So I found the nicest to send call I could find and won it.  I've been AB2T for fourteen years now.  Can't see myself going back.

What's left of the VA 2x2's aren't worth the $60 (and I don't think it's right to snatch a call right out from under a SK), so don't count on hearing me on the air with one of those.

73, Jordan AB2T 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 06:17:47 PM by Jordan » Logged
K5TED
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Posts: 690




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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2010, 05:08:03 PM »

And, here's my answer from Rebecca Williams...

Rebecca Williams to Laura, me
show details 9:31 AM (9 hours ago)

Mr. Turner,

Unfortunately the vanity call sign system can be manipulated in this way.  There is no rule in Part 97 that prevents someone from doing what Mr. XXXXXX is doing.

Rebecca Williams
Federal Communications Commission



"manipulated". Yes indeed.
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K9AIM
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« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2010, 12:19:44 PM »

In the bad old days most of us had no callsign choice at all. You simply got the next one on the list. We managed.

One thing the vanity call system has all but destroyed is the ability to tell a ham's "vintage" from the callsign. Some may thing that's good, others not so good.

well, inevitably that was going to go kaput -- given our human mortality (eventually all those early 20th century hams would become silent keys and their calls would become available for re-issue).  The thing I find a bit dissonant is the inability these days to tell a ham's general QTH from their callsign number.  maybe it is just that old habit's die hard -- but that is a tough one for me to swallow.  for example: that a Texas ham can grab up a 9 district callsign...

that said, I did use the vanity system to get a call I like on CW and which seems fairly easy to convey on phone.

73 and Happy Thanksgiving to all
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N2EY
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2010, 05:35:05 AM »

In the bad old days most of us had no callsign choice at all. You simply got the next one on the list. We managed.

One thing the vanity call system has all but destroyed is the ability to tell a ham's "vintage" from the callsign. Some may thing that's good, others not so good.

well, inevitably that was going to go kaput -- given our human mortality (eventually all those early 20th century hams would become silent keys and their calls would become available for re-issue).

For many years the FCC did not reissue those calls. They just kept moving down the alphabet.

When I got a non-Novice 2x3 third-district call in 1968, there were plenty of 1x3 third-district calls that were unassigned. But there was no way for me to get one. The only "vanity" callsigns available were 1x2s, which required an Extra and 20 years' experience.

 The thing I find a bit dissonant is the inability these days to tell a ham's general QTH from their callsign number.  maybe it is just that old habit's die hard -- but that is a tough one for me to swallow.  for example: that a Texas ham can grab up a 9 district callsign...

I understand, but consider a few facts:

1) The mandatory change-your-call-when-you-move rule ended more than 30 years ago.

2) It ended because hams who moved a lot would build up a long list of calls, with all the associated inconveniences.

3) In the contiguous USA, the number often didn't tell you all that much:

1 land was New England - 6 states
2 and 3 land combined were Mid-Atlantic - 5 states
4 land is almost all of the Southeast, from Florida to Virginia, the Atlantic to the Mississippi and Ohio - 8 states
5 land stretches from LA and MS to NM, from the Gulf to AR - 6 states
6 land is just one state - CA - the exception that proves the rule
7 land stretches from Canada to Mexico, from the Pacific Northwest to the Dakotas - 8 states
8 and 9 land combined cluster around the Great Lakes - 6 states.
0 land is the center of the country, from Canada to OK, from MN to CO - 8 states

So while the old system helped, in many cases it didn't narrow down somebody's location beyond a very general area.

Note that the call sign areas haven't changed since the 1940s - over 60 years!

73 de Jim, N2EY
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WD9EWK
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« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2010, 11:38:19 AM »

One question: If the licenses are "for life", how do SKs get removed from the database and the callsigns recycled?

I forgot to mention: Industry Canada's next-of-kin callsign policies resemble FCC rulings.  The relative of a deceased ham (to a certain degree of consanguinity) may request the SK's call regardless of whether it is a 2x2 or 2x3.  A relative of the deceased is exempt from the "five year rule" for vanity calls. 

If Industry Canada doesn't receive notification of the death of a ham, the Canadian rules make calls available for reassignment on the ham's 125th birthday: 

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf02102.html#sect11

(from Industry Canada's document RIC-9, Call Sign Policy and Special Event Prefixes)

73!





Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
http://www.wd9ewk.net/
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Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
http://www.wd9ewk.net/
N3DF
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« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2010, 06:35:22 PM »

I was AC2VOR during the Bicentennial (1976).  Could I request that back as a former holder?

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Neil N3DF
AB2T
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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2010, 07:19:02 PM »

I was AC2VOR during the Bicentennial (1976).  Could I request that back as a former holder?

No, but there's a strong case for opening up the A-series 2x3's to the vanity pool.

In Canada, special event prefixes are common (then again, there are many less amateurs.)

73, Jordan
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W3HF
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« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2010, 07:21:02 PM »

I was AC2VOR during the Bicentennial (1976).  Could I request that back as a former holder?
As Jordan says, the answer is no, and here's why. The only calls that can be requested are ones that are currently within the callsign groups assigned to the Amateur service. 2x3s starting with A are not currently included in any of the four callsign groups.

Besides, technically you weren't assigned AC2VOR. You were authorized to use it, but that was your own choice--that callsign was never on an FCC-issued license. I believe the FCC's definition of "former holder" would be something to the effect of "a person who was the licensee of a station license grant showing that call sign." Based on that definition, you aren't really a "former holder."

Furthermore, there's no advantage to being a former holder of a callsign that's been vacant for that long. If and when A 2x3s are made available, any eligible licensee will be able to apply for any call, as none of the calls will be within the two-year waiting period.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 07:23:54 PM by Stephen Melachrinos » Logged
VE3CLQ
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« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2010, 02:19:31 PM »

In Canada, a ham may have up to four callsigns.



Hmmm....Not true, I know one Canadian ham who has five.



It's important to remember that the old American callsign assignment rules still apply in Canada. Here in VE land an operator must change his or her call when they move from one province from another.  I was VA3AIT when I lived in Ontario; now I'm VA2AIT in Quebec (Why change the call?) 


Again not true.  I live in Ontario yet I still hold a valid VE7 callsign from British Columbia listed under my Ontario home address. I also hold a VE3 call.

73
Bill VE3CLQ & VE7CVQ



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K4FH
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« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2010, 07:38:39 PM »

Here is one that I've thought of.

My first call was KI4YMD.  As the previous station holder is it possible for me to transfer this call to our club so we can use it on a repeater?

Chris
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