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Author Topic: Woo Hoo! Love permits!  (Read 14822 times)
KI4SDY
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Posts: 1452




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« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2011, 08:49:13 AM »

"Of course. But its clear they have not done that in  this case."
He has just started the process. His application for the permit was approved. He is going to have to do all of that to get the towers up, just like he would with any other construction project. You are talking like his permit is in hand and the towers are complete. That is not reality!  Roll Eyes

"Do you think that people should be able to build anything they want, regardless of its impact on others?"
That was exactly my point! Thanks for making it for me. Even though I am a ham radio operator, I sympathise with his neighbors. Does he need 11 towers to make a contact? No telling what this guy is going to do next.  Shocked  

If you are going to try to argue a point, try to stay on one side of it or the other, so people know what point your trying to make.  Wink

"Are you jealous that he has the resources to put up an extensive antenna farm?"
I am never jealous of people that are suffering from compulsive behavior. I just hope that they get help for whatever ails them.  Grin  
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 07:23:38 AM by KI4SDY » Logged
N2EY
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Posts: 3877




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« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2011, 09:39:32 AM »

He has just started the process. His application for the permit was approved. He is going to have to do all of that to get the towers up, just like he would with any other construction project. You are talking like his permit is in hand and the towers are complete. That is not reality!  Roll Eyes

Yes, it is. The permits were issued and the towers are up.

It's clear you haven't watched the videos. Here are the links posted by KE4DRN:

Video of the 190' tower being erected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUWI38ocVTM

The comments say that the crew put up 10 towers. The date given is December 14, 2010.

While the project may not be complete, the permits have been issued and the towers are up.

Here's video from the local TV station about a neighbor objecting to the tower farm.
Notice the cell towers in the segment!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmgwdgZfM3M&feature=related

That one is dated November 2010. The foundations were already in place when the video was made. That means the permits and inspections were already done.

Unless there's something missing, it's clear that the ham went through all the steps by-the-book and now the neighbor(s) have an uphill battle if they want the towers taken down.

I previously asked:

"Do you think that people should be able to build anything they want, regardless of its impact on others?"

That was exactly my point! Thanks for making it for me. Even though I am a ham radio operator, I sympathise with his neighbors.

Why? How does his antenna farm bother them in any way?

The property is so big that if a tower should fall (very unlikely, but possible), it would not land on their property or the road. There is more danger of a utility pole falling over, but those aren't banned.

RF exposure is regulated by FCC. Again, since the property is so big and the antennas so high, their exposure is actually less than it would be in the typical suburban setup, and far below maximum allowable.

The antenna farm has no significant effect on stormwater, no effect on sunlight for plants and solar energy, no effect on wind, and probably no effect on wildlife. (Birds may like to roost on them). No significant effect on road traffic, utility demands, etc.

So it all comes down to what some neighbors might not want to look at - several hundred feet away.

Why should their esthetics be more important? Why are utility poles, silos, barns, metal pole buildings, irrigation rigs, wire fences and many other things esthetically acceptable, but not amateur radio antennas? Look at the buildings behind the neighbors being interviewed - are they architectural masterpieces?

Does he need 17 to 19 towers to make a contact?

Nobody *needs* a tower to make *a* contact. But if a ham wants a competitive contest/DX station, big antennas are part of the game.


I am never jealous of people that are suffering from compulsive behavior. I just hope that they get help for whatever ails them.  Grin  

Why do you judge the ham to be suffering from compulsive behavior?

What sort of antenna farm do you think would be appropriate for that 17 acre location?

It seems to me that what you're saying is that hams shouldn't put up *ANY* antennas that the neighbors *MIGHT* object to. Nor should they get permits for them.

What you seem to be saying is that the only antennas hams should put up are those which "the neighbors" and "the government" can't see. Anything else is "compulsive behavior".

73 de Jim, N2EY

« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 09:52:29 AM by James Miccolis » Logged
KF7CG
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Posts: 830




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« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2011, 03:18:34 PM »

This Amateur is in farm country and their is a large commercial radio tower nearby, why so much ado about a few more smaller ons? The neighbors I am sure wouldn't complain about a grain elevator silo complex for any of the neighboring fams, so why so much about the towers? Have you ever seen even a small farm silo complex? A cluster of large diameter 50 foot aand better 15 to 30 foot diameters tanks with interconnecting piping, How is a tower complex with smaller see-through towers worse?

I know how it is! It is DIFFERENT! Xenophobes, plain and simple. If you don't understand it, it is bad.

KF7CG
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AD6KA
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Posts: 2237




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« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2011, 03:51:51 PM »

Quote
The neighbors I am sure wouldn't complain about a grain elevator silo complex for any of the neighboring farms, so why so much about the towers?

Very true...especially when you consider that ham towers don't
have any danger of exploding, as grain silos do.  Grin
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KI4SDY
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Posts: 1452




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« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2011, 08:31:51 AM »

"Yes it is. The permits were issued and the towers are up."
"The comments say the crew put up 10 towers."
"While the project may not be complete, the permits were issued and the towers are up."

Well now, with 11 towers to be erected, which of these statements are true and which are false? They can't all be true, since he has not completed the erection of the 11 towers.  Wink

In your "limited experience," as you put it, do you not know that there will be final inspections? If he flunks those, he may have to take the towers down and start over. Again, a good reason not to aggravate the local government.  Cry

"Do you think people should be able to build anything they want, regardless of the impact on others?"  Shocked

This is the only logical statement you have made in your numerous posts on this issue. Your attempt to mitigate its point now just speaks volumes about the lack of logic we see so often on this site, just for the sake of argument. I guess some people just have a need to be heard and bask in the limelight of the exploits of others.  Roll Eyes

"Nobody needs a tower to make a contact."

Thanks for another logical and true reply to my question, in addition to making my point again. He doesn't need 11 towers, he just wants them. I believe if he had been forced to go to court, a judge would have ruled that 11 towers was way beyond what could be expected for reasonable accomodation under the FCC regulations. He was lucky! If you don't believe me, try getting the same permission in your own location. Wink

"Why do you judge the ham to be suffering from a compulsive behavior?"

I never said he was suffering from a compulsive behavior, you just did. However, the situation speaks for itself and has attracted others with similar issues championing his cause. Wink

I support the FCC regulations the way they are written. "Reasonable accommodation" is fine! Grin  
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 07:56:03 AM by KI4SDY » Logged
G3RZP
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Posts: 4464




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« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2011, 09:07:46 AM »

What does the guy do for a living? He just wouldn't happen to be a major local employer, would he?
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AD6KA
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Posts: 2237




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« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2011, 01:30:14 PM »

Quote
"Reasonable accommodation" is fine!
My dad used to say "reasonable" is a weasel word.
One could argue that 19 towers on 17 acres of farm land IS reasonable,
because the guy wants to build and exceptionally good antenna system.
His motives are, in the big picture, immaterial.
He has the permits, he has the land, he has the money, and it's a free country.
(For now anyway....)

Geeze, why all the hullabaloo over what this guy is doing?
He has all the papers and is doing everything legally.
It's his money and he can do what he likes with it.
What happened to "Live and Let Live".

You read these antenna forums and see many posts along the lines of:
"If you want a big antenna farm, move to the boonies and buy land".
AND
"Don't put up anything unless you have the permits"
Yet that is precisely what this guy did and now he is getting grief about it?

I'm going to dive back into the RTTY Roundup.
That "minimum 3 hour breaks" rule is unreasonable! Grin
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N2EY
Member

Posts: 3877




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« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2011, 01:53:23 PM »

One could argue that 19 towers on 17 acres of farm land IS reasonable,
because the guy wants to build and exceptionally good antenna system.
His motives are, in the big picture, immaterial.
He has the permits, he has the land, he has the money, and it's a free country.
(For now anyway....)

Geeze, why all the hullabaloo over what this guy is doing?
He has all the papers and is doing everything legally.
It's his money and he can do what he likes with it.
What happened to "Live and Let Live".

There's one more factor, and it's probably the most important: How what someone does affects others.

If the towers were a safety or environmental issue, the neighbors would have a valid complaint. Such as if a tower could fall onto someone else's property. 

But from what I see it's simply a matter of esthetics. Which is why I mentioned the Eiffel Tower, and asked whose esthetics get preference.

You read these antenna forums and see many posts along the lines of:
"If you want a big antenna farm, move to the boonies and buy land".
AND
"Don't put up anything unless you have the permits"
Yet that is precisely what this guy did and now he is getting grief about it?

Yup. That's what doesn't make sense to me. He played by the rules and appears to be doing a good job, and somehow that's "compulsive behavior".

Maybe some folks are just jealous.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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KI4SDY
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Posts: 1452




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« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2011, 05:00:41 PM »

"My dad used to say that reasonable is a weasel word."
Ok, so why don't you call the FCC and complain that their rules are "weasel." That ought to win you a you a station inspection and placement on an anti-government list. Let me know how that works out! Shocked

Since the other poster won't address the obvious inconsistencies in his constantly changing arguments that I asked about, lets try some further investigation and an experiment!  Grin

I notice he appears to live in a regulated neighborhood! Did he move there because he wants a certain amount of guaranty on the quality of his surroundings, including aesthetics? Probably! Why? Because it effects his property values and because his wife most likely dictates where he must live. I did not see a tower next to his house or in the back yard, although there seems to be plenty of room for it. That seems strange with all this chest beating about property rights and FCC protection. We don't seem to be practising what we are preaching!  Roll Eyes

So much for the investigation, now on with the experiment!  Wink

I think this same poster should go to his wife and show her the news story and the pictures of this guy who is putting up 11 towers. He should tell her that he got a good deal on the property next to his, because the neighbors are selling cheap. Tell her that you want to move there so he can actually put up some towers, instead of just talking about it. Lets see how far any of you would get with that! I already know her answer. That is why he is living in the the regulated community!  Embarrassed  

Finally, if you had bought some property and a compulsive person erected or built an eyesore next to your house and the value of the property dropped, would you sue or just lick your wounds and take the loss? Why would you do something to someone else that you wouldn't want done to you? Just because you can? Is that being being a good neighbor?  Undecided  
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 07:26:32 AM by KI4SDY » Logged
K1CJS
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Posts: 5993




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« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2011, 08:52:43 AM »

All too often these days, people complain about things like this JUST BECAUSE it 'spoils the view'.  The truth of the matter is that every property owner has something on their property that an adjoining property owner doesn't like, and the adjoining property owner forgets what the definition of a property line is.  A property line is where the land ONE PERSON OWNS AND CONTROLS ends and the land that ANOTHER PERSON OWNS AND CONTROLS begins. 

The point is that controlling ends where the property line is--and too many people think that only goes one way and not the other, such as they can control outside their property line but other people can't control inside that line. 
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KI4SDY
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Posts: 1452




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« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2011, 09:25:23 AM »

Your missing the property value financial issue and if you don't care if you are aggravating your neighbors you will soon be surrounded by enemies!  Wink
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 09:29:40 AM by KI4SDY » Logged
W0MT
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Posts: 172




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« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2011, 09:26:18 AM »

* * *
A property line is where the land ONE PERSON OWNS AND CONTROLS ends and the land that ANOTHER PERSON OWNS AND CONTROLS begins. 
* * *
Your comment, while seemingly true and consider true by many, simply isn't. There are rights owned by adjacent and nearby property owners that affect how you use your property. These rights vary from state to state. Some of the more common rights that generally are true:
1) Water: you cannot dam or other wise obstruct the free flow of water across your land.
2) Support: you cannot excavate on you property that removes the support of adjacent or nearby property.
3) Light and air: you cannot block the light and flow of air from adjacent or nearby property.
4) Access: you cannot prohibit a property owner from crossing your property to gain access to property that is otherwise inaccessible.

Some states have added things like:
1) View: you cannot obstruct the view of nearby property owners.
2) Cemeteries:  you cannot block access to a cemetery.
3) Beach Access: you cannot block access to a beach.

Please note that not all of these are true in every state but some of them are true in every state. Also note that my above list is not complete. My only point is that just because you own real property doesn't mean that you have absolute control over everything having to do with that property.
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N2EY
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Posts: 3877




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« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2011, 03:03:53 PM »

Besides the things listed by W0MT, most properties are subject to safety and pollution regulations. For example, the construction of something that may endanger other properties can be regulated or prohibited.

There are also factors that can affect the use of adjoining properties, such as road traffic and parking, which are regulated.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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KE4DRN
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Posts: 3721




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« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2011, 08:51:24 PM »

hi

K9CT has been active with radio for a long long time.

http://www.k9ct.us/ 

http://www.thompsonet.com/

His new contest station will be a sight to see,
from operating positions to the antenna towers
that feature K0XG tower rotators.

http://www.k0xg.com/products/product4.html

18905 W. McDonald Road, Trivoli,
Grady Steele to K9CT LLC, $175,000.

73 james
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KI4SDY
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Posts: 1452




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« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2011, 09:27:38 PM »

So tell us, how did the experiment go with your wife? Did you get permission to move out of your regulated neighborhood and buy property cheap next to the guy with the 11 towers? Probably not. I guess you will just have to keep talking about towers and dreaming that some day you will have one of your own.  Cry
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 07:27:20 AM by KI4SDY » Logged
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