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Author Topic: Fined $50  (Read 35213 times)
KD1I
Member

Posts: 111




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« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2011, 12:35:46 PM »

Jim, your point about the company nondisclosure agreement is well taken. I am familiar with these from my work. Of course, they are targeted for a particular subject or product and usually for a certain period of time. That seems reasonable.  However, giving a blanket agreement to never communicate seems a bit excessive. You may be completely right.....  I'll have to 'chew' on that a bit.
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N2EY
Member

Posts: 3879




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« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2011, 12:58:34 PM »

Jim, your point about the company nondisclosure agreement is well taken. I am familiar with these from my work. Of course, they are targeted for a particular subject or product and usually for a certain period of time. That seems reasonable.  However, giving a blanket agreement to never communicate seems a bit excessive. You may be completely right.....  I'll have to 'chew' on that a bit.

There are nondisclosure agreements that are essentially open-ended, meaning "we'll tell you when it's OK to talk. Which may be never".

HOA rules that forbid antennas don't prevent you from communicating; they just prevent you from doing certain kinds of communication.

But the main point is that, if someone buys a restricted property, they've agreed to the terms of the sales contract - one of which is "I'll abide by the HOA rules". So the freedom-of-speech thing is a non-starter.

Here's another example: In many areas there are noise ordinances which can be invoked if someone disturbs the peace with too much noise. Putting the stereo speakers on my porch and playing the Moody Blues really loud may be OK at 2 PM (I have seriously cool neighbors), but if I do it at 2 AM it won't be long before some of Radnor's Finest show up at my door and tell me to cut it out. Does freedom of speech apply, or common sense and consideration for others?

73 de Jim, N2EY

 
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KI4SDY
Member

Posts: 1452




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« Reply #77 on: June 30, 2011, 06:25:37 PM »

If you move far enough out, no one will hear you or see your antennas!  Grin
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W0MT
Member

Posts: 172




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« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2011, 07:54:21 PM »

Jim, your point about the company nondisclosure agreement is well taken. I am familiar with these from my work. Of course, they are targeted for a particular subject or product and usually for a certain period of time. That seems reasonable.  However, giving a blanket agreement to never communicate seems a bit excessive. You may be completely right.....  I'll have to 'chew' on that a bit.
Jim is absolutely correct that the First Amendment Right of Freedom of Speech only tells government that they cannot pass any law restricting this right. There are thousands of ways that your freedom of speech can be restricted by non-governmental entities. For example, your employer can fire you for criticizing the company. A commercial store can kick you out for handing out leaflets in the store and can have you arrested for trespass if you refuse to leave. A theater can make you leave for talking loud enough to disturb other theater attendees.

One trouble that many have with this right or any other Constitutional right is that none of them are absolute. An example that is often used is that you can be arrested for yelling, “Fire!” in a crowded theater when this is no fire. But the restrictions on the Freedom of Speech are far broader than that. You can be prosecuted for giving a false police report, for providing insider trading information to your family and friends, for threatening to kill someone, etc.
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AD6KA
Member

Posts: 2237




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« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2011, 09:13:03 PM »

Quote
You can be prosecuted for giving a false police report, for providing insider trading information to your family and friends, for threatening to kill someone, etc.

Or a medical provider, or even technicans and clerical staff, for releasing
confidential medical information.
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K1CJS
Member

Posts: 6034




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« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2011, 04:09:29 AM »

Contracts, agreements and such not withstanding, but there are few things that can prevent 'freedom of speech'.  The thing is, are you willing to pay the price if you DO speak your mind?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 04:12:25 AM by K1CJS » Logged
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3879




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« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2011, 02:58:14 PM »

Jim is absolutely correct that the First Amendment Right of Freedom of Speech only tells government that they cannot pass any law restricting this right. There are thousands of ways that your freedom of speech can be restricted by non-governmental entities. For example, your employer can fire you for criticizing the company. A commercial store can kick you out for handing out leaflets in the store and can have you arrested for trespass if you refuse to leave. A theater can make you leave for talking loud enough to disturb other theater attendees.

I hadn't though of those, but you're right, of course.

How about the situation of non-disclosure agreements, where a settlement is made on the condition that the parties involved keep mum?

One trouble that many have with this right or any other Constitutional right is that none of them are absolute. An example that is often used is that you can be arrested for yelling, “Fire!” in a crowded theater when this is no fire. But the restrictions on the Freedom of Speech are far broader than that. You can be prosecuted for giving a false police report, for providing insider trading information to your family and friends, for threatening to kill someone, etc.

I've long thought that the "fire in a crowded theatre" example wasn't a good one. Here's why: If I understand correctly, the idea is that yelling fire would cause a panic and people could be killed in the stampede. But it occurs to me that if a theatre is so constructed that people can't get out quickly and safely in case of fire, then the theatre is unsafe and shouldn't be used. For what if there really is a fire?

IMHO, the big point which is too often forgotten is that every right carries with it a corresponding responsibility. Freedom of speech carries with it the responsibility to speak only the truth, and to take the time to research and confirm exactly what the truth is.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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W7MJM
Member

Posts: 109




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« Reply #82 on: July 13, 2011, 05:49:36 PM »

How about mounting your mast and vertical antenna inside of gray PVC pipe, and then putting a fake plastic satellite dish on top? If you assemble it to look like your neighbors' satellite dish installations, you should be OK. What do you think?
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AA1BN
Member

Posts: 56




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« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2011, 08:46:13 PM »

Not dead yet.....

My request for the return of my $50 fine has gone unanswered by the
present HOA BOD. Apparently they are unaware of the Florida Statutes
that require a 14 day advance notice of the intent to fine, and the requirement
of providing a hearing (mixed BOD and non-BOD members) prior to fining....
along with the rules that specify that the fine is not attached to the "dues" portion,
but is separate from it.

All of what they are presently doing, is in direct conflict with the Florida
Statutes, and is reason for the State's intervention.

The general HOA population strongly desires a major change, and I along
with several others, are beginning a Recall action to remove all present
members of the Board of Directors. We will attempt to replace them with
homeowners that are willing to follow rules, and the wishes of the general
population of our subdivision.

After much study, a "recall" appears to be the most logical way to accomplish
the removal and change of the present Board of Directors.

Our annual meeting is in November, and the BOD has not notified anyone
of an impending election, the need to solicit for people for the nomination
committee, or for nominees for candidates to replace present members.

So once again, as it's been since the 1980s, the Board of Directors will
vote for who they want on the BOD, and the president who has been
president for the past 8 years, will again be appointed to the board, and
as president.

If anyone has information regarding recall actions, please feel free to
provide info? I'm in the process of hiring an attorney, but we need as
much input as possible for this debacle.

Cheers, and 73,

John
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KC2ZPK
Member

Posts: 107


WWW

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« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2011, 09:44:19 AM »

Are they even having an annual meeting for ALL owners? if not you may get the attorney general to basically nullify the board as they are not elected by anyone. You may be able to have a new board  elected and oust the dictators. This is what happend where I live about 7 years ago.
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John
KC2ZPK.com - A work in progress
N3WAK
Member

Posts: 278




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« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2011, 10:41:10 AM »

John:  Why should the attorney general care?  Is he or she a ham?  What is the legal authority (e.g., statute, case law) for the attorney general--who is probably more interested in violent crime, prison overcrowding, and consumer fraud than in a ham complaining he or she can't put up an antenna--to "basically nullify the board as they are not elected by anyone"? 

While you may indeed be right, Big Government has better things to do--in my opinion, anyway, than getting involved in an unimportant dispute between homeowners.  I sure hope that my state government is spending its time and money doing more important things than interjecting itself in how an HOA (even my HOA) does business. 

If an HOA tells me what to do, I have four options: (1) Do it.  (2) Don't do it.  (3) Negotiate.  (4) Move.  I wish everybody good luck dealing with their own situations...but people need to understand that the State and/or Federal governments don't care and won't get involved.  And for my money, they shouldn't. 

Just my two cents' worth.  73, Tony N3WAK
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KF7CG
Member

Posts: 835




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« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2011, 02:42:55 PM »

Hey, the board is violating corporate law by failing to honor its own by-laws and by also violating the laws of his state that govern HOAs and other civic control boards. In other words the board is a bunch of power mad scofflaws.

This is a perfect place for an attorney general.

KF7CG
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W0MT
Member

Posts: 172




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« Reply #87 on: November 04, 2011, 08:11:04 PM »

Hey, the board is violating corporate law by failing to honor its own by-laws and by also violating the laws of his state that govern HOAs and other civic control boards. In other words the board is a bunch of power mad scofflaws.

This is a perfect place for an attorney general.

KF7CG

Psst! Wanna buy a bridge?
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AA1BN
Member

Posts: 56




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« Reply #88 on: November 04, 2011, 09:24:33 PM »

Hi John (KC2)... Tony (KB3), KF7 and W0M...

Once again, as it has been since the 1980s, the annual meeting has been
announced only by a placard placed at the subdivision's entrance.

No notice of an election, no mailings to homeowners soliciting for
people to be on a "nomination committee", no notice of a list of
candidates running for office... Just a placard stating that the annual
meeting will take place at the pool area, and to bring your own chairs.

The issue isn't as simple as being denied the installation of an antenna.

The issue is the levying of a fine, and having it added to the annual dues,
without due process of law. The Florida statutes state clearly, that 14 day's
notice be provided prior to the levying of a fine, and the owner be provided
a hearing before members of the board -and- association members. The
fine can not be added to the dues, and can not be levied without due process.

That's one of the issues...

The board of directors have not been elected by the association since
the HOA was transferred from the  developer to the homeowners (1989).

Instead, the Board has been "nominating and voting" for members to be
added to the Board of Directors, and achieving that by simply making a
motion at a meeting to add an individual, and having it seconded by another
board member.

That can occur if the association members do not attend the annual meetings,
and do not offer an objection with a majority vote. The Board then has the
responsibility to add board members at their discretion, and on their terms.

The homeowners do not become involved, since there is no guidance for
the proper way to have an election..... but it has to be kept in mind, that the
Board of Directors has that responsibility to set up an election schedule,
a nomination committee, and mail lists out; The homeowners can not legally
do that themselves, it has to be done by the BOD.

Think of it as you would any government election. You can't just arbitrarily
decide someone's going to run for office, and circulate ballots.

There are a few dozen more legal issues that the present BOD has been
generating and regurgitating for numerous years. It has got to come to a halt,
and the only recourse I can see, is a Recall action.

So far.... I have downloaded the State's forms and took the time to document
as many reasons for a recall, as I can.

We now are in need of an attorney, and cash to do all the mailings involved.

It's a rough road to have to take, but it's not just over an antenna... It's deeper
than that, and a helluva' lot more important than that!

Regardless what happens, I'm in the process of figuring out how to run a
closed-loop wire around the perimeter of the house that will not be too
noticeable from the street.

The fascia and trim are all aluminum, but all the small sections are not connected
securely enough to provide good continuity for the entire 220" or so feet. It'd
be easier to run a wire, if i can figure out a way to keep it away from the aluminum.
Electric fence stand-offs may work...

Anyway... The local governments love HOAs, since they lift the responsibility
of local real-estate law enforcement off their backs. I don't see less taxes thanks
to an HOA, only an increase in dues that presently exceed the amount of property
taxes levied.

The AG isn't going to get involved, but the state agency responsible for overseeing
problems within HOA governments, might. They are all fighting to prove the need
for their existence, and matters like ours, have some merit!

We'll see.... If I can sustain my health and cash long enough to get something done.

I'll post the results (if any) to this thread!

Thanks for the interest. I hope my experience pays off for others as well.

73,

John - aa1bn

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KC2ZPK
Member

Posts: 107


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2011, 04:57:04 AM »

John:  Why should the attorney general care?  Is he or she a ham?  What is the legal authority (e.g., statute, case law) for the attorney general--who is probably more interested in violent crime, prison overcrowding, and consumer fraud than in a ham complaining he or she can't put up an antenna--to "basically nullify the board as they are not elected by anyone"? 

While you may indeed be right, Big Government has better things to do--in my opinion, anyway, than getting involved in an unimportant dispute between homeowners.  I sure hope that my state government is spending its time and money doing more important things than interjecting itself in how an HOA (even my HOA) does business. 

If an HOA tells me what to do, I have four options: (1) Do it.  (2) Don't do it.  (3) Negotiate.  (4) Move.  I wish everybody good luck dealing with their own situations...but people need to understand that the State and/or Federal governments don't care and won't get involved.  And for my money, they shouldn't. 

Just my two cents' worth.  73, Tony N3WAK
Tony,
By the condo assoc not having an annual meeting, which they are obligated to do, they are breaking the law. Ham interests aside, I have lived through one of these events. Where I lived the board was a bunch of cronies who thought they were above the law. They made up rules with out regard to their own by-laws. When a small group of owners demanded they hold an annual meeting, they were told that they do not have to have a meeting, and there is nothing that the owners could do about it. Reading what AA1BN posts is like looking at the history of where I live, almost word for word. The old board's attorney went even as far as to say that there is nothing the unit owners could do about it, how’s that for balls! Long story short, New board DID take over legally and things are actually improving in our complex. We actually have money in the reserve accounts, actions are being taken to collect money from owners that are severely in arrears on the maintenance fees( some were as high as 20K+). Can you believe the old board let their "friends" not pay maintenance fees. Yeah, we had corruption, and I will almost guarantee that AA1BN will find the same when they dig deeper. It is no longer about Ham antennae, it may have started that way, but it is much bigger now!

AA1BN, don't give up now!
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John
KC2ZPK.com - A work in progress
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