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Author Topic: Cluster mania  (Read 4062 times)
NI0C
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« on: February 13, 2011, 11:21:08 PM »

I got up around 0630 UTC and went down to the shack to check out 160 meters.  There was a small pileup around 1829 KHz, and I checked DX Summit and saw a spot for J5DAO.  I tuned through the pileup as I flipped on the amplifier.  Sure enough, I heard a strong station signing with the suffix "DAO."  I heard him say he was running 50 watts. 

But-- while I was copying all this-- there were some big guns in there calling!  I listened some more, then heard him turn over to a station he was working.  It sounded like he was using a straight key as I clearly heard W6DAO.  I heard him send the same callsign again after the other station signed with him.  All the while, stations were in there calling and not listening.  I issued a spot for the correct callsign, now I've written this, and now I'm going back to bed!

DX'ing is all about listening.

73,
Chuck  NI0C
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KF6ABU
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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2011, 11:11:16 AM »

Hopefully people read this and heed it. However I really doubt it. People don't really care about listening. They just want that "new one" at whatever costs. My favorite is people not hearing up up up and keep calling right over the dx, so some random op "works" the person who doesn’t listen to up, moves off freq, AND gets a nice NIL. It's a win win.
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WB3CQM
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2011, 07:41:25 AM »

Hopefully people read this and heed it. However I really doubt it. People don't really care about listening. They just want that "new one" at whatever costs. My favorite is people not hearing up up up and keep calling right over the dx, so some random op "works" the person who doesn’t listen to up, moves off freq, AND gets a nice NIL. It's a win win.

First off - Most important - This is a HOBBY - We are Amateurs Radio Operators. -Notice I said Amateurs.

I have been called a professional radio operator by a few local hams . Maybe I am because of being laid off  during the winter. Being All most full time ham radio operator. Building a station like I have!

Last night I made a mistake - I came off one pile up and jumped into the TJ9PF ssb pile on 40 ssb. I am  sure he was working west coast . But I did not listen for my usual 2 min. He said listening 145 and I sent my call and worked him on first call. Reason -no pile up - he was working 6's . I was upset with myself  when I went to bed and still up set over it. I just do not make mistakes like that.

You are 100% wrong that people do not listen to up - I believe 99% plus of it is people on the Wrong VFO - Switching back and forth trying to find the qrg  , going from pile up to pile up on other bands. Most of it is honest mistake by Amateur Radio Operators.

I almost NEVER make the mistake . But I do ! And if any of you best operators in the world  read this and say you have never made a mistake or this one I will start to list calls on this forum . Because let me add I have even heard many of the better operators  make the mistake at least one time in rtty or cw.

Myself I have been in 1000's of pile ups - My mistakes are far and few , but I am sure I will be on wrong vfo again. Fatigue ,half asleep , in a rush for that Peak in signal.

Yesterday on 10 ssb I heard my neighbor Fly into a 6XX station for transmitting on the TJ9PF - He screamed at him for wrecking his contact. Which he finally made any way. Let me tell all of you that my neighbor is one of the Worst at transmitting on the DX station . I have heard him in many pile up over the years make the error . And he has the NERVE to scream at another amateur making the mistake ! This is all over trying to be on top in the club log.

What I think is the Club Log and other contest are in part turning this hobby into a crazy  madness ! - This is a Hobby - WE ARE ALL AMATEUR RADIO Operators THAT MAKE MISTAKES from time to time -

I love the split  police but when they start to rag chew about others on freq . ASK where did you get your license . I would like to ask the cops where they got their license . The split police are no better than the amateur making the mistake of transmitting on the DX .

QRM - from split police - QRM on purpose - QRM from hams making mistakes - Learn to cope with friends . BECAUSE IT WILL NEVER END. We are amateurs not pros.Pile ups are pile ups with many stations calling .  I make mistakes even after 35 years a ham and being in 1000's of pile ups PLEASE FORGIVE ME ALSO!

Posting a wrong call - I have made this mistake also - SO WHAT! 5 min from now wont matter. Next week , next year - Who cares . Folks there more to worry about And that is OPERATING SKILLS- And how your treat your neighbor .

To the amateur reading this posting that continue to send your call when the DX says up Eu - Up Eu means the dx is taking ONLY Europe. To those that clearly hear a parcel call like cqm  sent when you are a xyz or a  4 or 5 when you hear wb3 and refuse to stop sending your call . Shame on YOU! Mistake is one thing , but greedy hams that refuse to head the dx request , Go find another hobby! 

kind regards & 73,

JIM

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NU4B
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2011, 08:59:41 AM »

Hopefully people read this and heed it. However I really doubt it. People don't really care about listening. They just want that "new one" at whatever costs. My favorite is people not hearing up up up and keep calling right over the dx, so some random op "works" the person who doesn’t listen to up, moves off freq, AND gets a nice NIL. It's a win win.

First off - Most important - This is a HOBBY - We are Amateurs Radio Operators. -Notice I said Amateurs.


I thought it was called the Amateur Radio Service - a bit more than a hobby. Maybe that's the problem, we've left "service" and entered "hobby".
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N2CJ
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2011, 09:00:00 AM »

so some random op "works" the person who doesn’t listen to up, moves off freq, AND gets a nice NIL. It's a win win.

I've heard this happen a few times lately, and I have to admit it makes me laugh.
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K0RS
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2011, 09:39:18 AM »

Well, I got sucked in a couple of days ago.  Several stations misposted S9DX as TT8DX on 30 meters.  I tuned down to 30 and there he was, loud and working a US pileup, but not ID'ing.  What the hell, WFWL, eh?  I called and got right through, but he sent "dupe" after our QSO.  Huh?  I hadn't worked TT8DX yet!  In fact he was sending "dupe" after probably 50~60% of his QSOs, because people thought they were working TT8DX, not S9DX.

After about 10 minutes he finally ID'd.  WTF, S9DX??!!  Wouldn't it have been better to send his callsign instead of "dupe" after fully half his contacts?  One hell of a lot less confusion and less time wasted...and, dare I say, a lot less "dupes."  I guess I should have known that it wasn't really TT8DX because Baldur isn't such a lid operator.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 10:01:08 AM by K0RS » Logged
WB3CQM
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Posts: 117




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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2011, 10:04:17 AM »

I also have fallen for that little trap - got to love the dx spotters when they post the wrong station . ::smile:: 

Couple years ago a ham posted a dX station spotted - a ham from NY got mad and posted that His posting  was wrong. That such and such a station was there .

I got involved and sent BOTH a nice email - Both seems polite and find with my emails.

Both HAMS were RIGHT - Both were hearing 2 different semi rare dx . Neither was hearing the same.

Me in between could hear BOTH DX stations on the same freq plain as day.

Interesting with out doubt.

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N4KC
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2011, 11:46:53 AM »

I only worked the contest for a few hours this past weekend, but I kept noticing a certain VE7 (likely not using his real call) spotting some really rare ones.  When I went to the designated frequency, though, I noticed stations with very similar--but much less rare--callsigns were actually operating there.

Whoever this guy was, he was getting his jollies deliberately listening for stations whose calls he could easily transpose into something of great interest and going to the time and effort of posting them.

I guess he showed us contesters/DXers!  That's it.  I'll never do a contest or chase a rare one again. Until next time, that is...

73 (even to that poor sick soul),

Don Keith N4KC
www.n4kc.com
www.donkeith.com
http://n4kc.blogspot.com
www.facebook.com/donkeith

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N3OX
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2011, 04:10:31 PM »

After about 10 minutes he finally ID'd.  WTF, S9DX??!!  Wouldn't it have been better to send his callsign instead of "dupe" after fully half his contacts?  

Yes, this is a serious problem with some DXpeditions!

We sit here and lament the practice of only copying stuff off the cluster, but I'll tell you, there are a number of expeditions that wait an intolerable amount of time before they identify.

I remember once in the last few years where I waited a full fifteen minutes after I made my QSO, and this was after trying for a while in the pileup.  I was probably in the pile for a half hour without hearing an ID.  I've even heard a DXPedition send "QRX 5" with no identification, go away, and come back without sending the call!  That's absurd.  These operations are relying on people knowing who they are from off-air means, and that can't do anything positive.  I prefer to hear the call for myself before I call in, but huge delays between identifications make it too risky for a really needed one , and so I have to shrug, think "WFWL," and dive in, possibly lid-ishly working the wrong station.  There are risks to doing this too, since at least a few DXPeditions have been known to refuse to confirm a QSO if you dupe them (Watch out for Kevin the Penguinator).  But there aren't many of those.

I've heard plenty of expeditions with astonishing rates who send their call every time.  IMO, it's better.  No DXer should be forced to use the internet to figure out what some pileup is about.  People should have a solid opportunity to use their ears, at least.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 04:14:58 PM by N3OX » Logged

73,
Dan
http://www.n3ox.net

Monkey/silicon cyborg, beeping at rocks since 1995.
NI0C
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Posts: 2406




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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2011, 04:39:04 PM »

N3OX wrote:
Quote
I've heard plenty of expeditions with astonishing rates who send their call every time.  IMO, it's better.  No DXer should be forced to use the internet to figure out what some pileup is about.  People should have a solid opportunity to use their ears, at least.

Exactly, Dan.  VP8ORK comes to mind as a recent expedition that identified themselves appropriately.  Many pirate operations do not identify themselves at all! 

73,
Chuck  NI0C
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WB3CQM
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 05:57:46 PM »

so some random op "works" the person who doesn’t listen to up, moves off freq, AND gets a nice NIL. It's a win win.

I've heard this happen a few times lately, and I have to admit it makes me laugh.

No it really is not a win win. And it dose not make me laugh .It is a lose lose. It is some one that comes in and QRM's the DX station and the station he is working.

It causes confusion and maybe YOUR contact is lost because of it.

I never seen WHERE TWO WRONGS make a right. Sorry I do not get it.

AS I said before mistakes are mistakes and can happen. The slit button on the Icom 746 pro is on top of the A/B vfo button. Easy to bump it when going back and forth in a pile up between the two vfo. But it is EASY to forget to Put it on when coming from another band. Old timer / young ham/ inexperienced / lots of reasons. I hear it all the time. It has happened to me. 

My self a polite CQM up or UP is find. DO we need 10 Slit police and one sending long messages with NO call ? It is added qrm. It may be your 10 second window opening to work a new one.

Just like my previous post And sorry for hijacking this thread. this should have been called UP UP ! thread.

But When my neighbored got on the DX and told the 6 station off for destroying his contact. MY neighbor was NOW in fact destroying someones else qso perhaps. 2 wrongs dont make a right in my book.

I heard a station on 80 meter phone give a signal report to station as you describe . So happen my neighbor of 50 year ham heard it. He was convinced the DX was working simplex . Now he was told by others he was a lid and go up. NOW a fight broke out over the air. I mean a FIGHT .  This is real good for ham radio Which is a service but it is a hobby and it is BIG BUSINESS for some. I wondered who contact was destroyed by this action ?

Sorry I disagree .

I post many many stations on the summit . Many times I never work them. Just post them.

I stopped much of it. But on 160 one am I was hearing a VK . I listened for long time . Many cq . I even tried to work him . Could not . I wanted Some one to hear this guy and work him. I posted his call. Later I had email exchange with the 8 station that worked him. I had one letter wrong. the letter ( L ) I copied over and over D - I am convinced the DIT was lost in the 10,000 mile trip .

So are you all going to have a fit because I missed the it by one dit and miss posted the call ? Should I stop posting for ever now?

By the way the 8 station worked this VK for a new one on top band. He is a great op though.

There was a big dx station on 10 meter one day . He kept sending UP . I worked him SIMPLEX as well as another 100 stations.

A 7 station portable 4 ( I leave the calls out here ) started to post on the summit . He was having a fit over the fact stations were calling on freq.. Not sure if he ever figured it out. But people started to post telling him to go get lost. Crazy all I can tell you . Side line experts . Why was the dx saying up and working simplex ? I never asked them .

I can give you 100 more  stories.

I almost posted NI0C on top band one am when I heard him calling. But did not. My understanding it is ACCEPTED for stations on TOP BAND to post others in the same country . I do not agree with posting a 7 on 80 -10 but I see no problem with it on Top Band .

Please set me straight but I have seen this in print somewhere.

What you say NI0C on this ??
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N4KC
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 06:26:18 PM »

Hey, several times I have heard DX saying "Up" but actually working stations down a kilocycle or two.  I called there and got them.  I'm sure they lose track sometimes of where they are listening if they are tuning a range.

Don N4KC
www.n4kc.com
www.donkeith.com
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NI0C
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 07:05:31 PM »

WB3CQM:

I agree with you that two wrongs don't make a right, and I certainly don't condone DX cops pretending to be the DX and "working" someone just to get him off the frequency. 

Of course people make mistakes in their DX pursuits.  Sometimes this means someone will copy the wrong call sign and post it on the DX cluster.  This shouldn't be a problem as long as people are listening on the air and not just reacting to what they see on the cluster. 

My original complaint was not that someone copied W6DAO as J5DAO, but rather that a bunch of people got on the spotted frequency and started bleating out their call signs before they determined for themselves just what was transpiring on the frequency.  It was analogous to someone merging onto a major highway by putting their foot to the floor without looking first. 

73,
Chuck  NI0C
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KF6ABU
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« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2011, 09:41:24 AM »

so some random op "works" the person who doesn’t listen to up, moves off freq, AND gets a nice NIL. It's a win win.

I've heard this happen a few times lately, and I have to admit it makes me laugh.

No it really is not a win win. And it dose not make me laugh .It is a lose lose. It is some one that comes in and QRM's the DX station and the station he is working.

It causes confusion and maybe YOUR contact is lost because of it.

I never seen WHERE TWO WRONGS make a right. Sorry I do not get it.

AS I said before mistakes are mistakes and can happen. The slit button on the Icom 746 pro is on top of the A/B vfo button. Easy to bump it when going back and forth in a pile up between the two vfo. But it is EASY to forget to Put it on when coming from another band. Old timer / young ham/ inexperienced / lots of reasons. I hear it all the time. It has happened to me. 

My self a polite CQM up or UP is find. DO we need 10 Slit police and one sending long messages with NO call ? It is added qrm. It may be your 10 second window opening to work a new one.

And when he continues to call the dx zero beat after being told up bunches of times by bunches of people trying to work split per the DX's but who cannot becuase one user cannot operate his radio rendering the DX unreadable? Sounds like a fine way to fix the problem he creates.
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WX7G
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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2011, 10:55:33 AM »

It has been said that in life timing is everything. I often hear ops calling DX completely out of sync. Completely, slowly, and without effect.
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