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Author Topic: My complaint with some of the Big Gun's  (Read 22054 times)
AA6YQ
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« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2011, 12:29:25 PM »

I laud Frank's work and experience and knowledge in the art of radio, but I gotta say, I'm getting a little tired of the unending stream of spots emanating from his RBN cluster. Once is enough, IMHO unless it's in a dynamic contest environment, in which case I love it. Also complicating matters is that it's connected to one of the biggest, finest antenna arrays on the East Coast, capable of hearing stations that are right at or below the noise level for "average" stations, thus setting off alarms for entities that are realistically unworkable for 80% of users.

I definitely see both the plusses and minuses of that system, but frankly I wish it would stop outside of contests.

1.  "Daily DX" publisher Bernie W3UR sometimes uses neighbor Frank W3LPL's station, and may be responsible for some of those spots

2. You're not forced to use the reverse beacon network as a spot source

3. if a nearby great antenna array can copy the DX but you can't, run a quick propagation forecast so see if propagation between you and the DX is waxing or waning; if the former, an opening may be on the way. If so, you'll have an advantage over competitors who respond to the spot by checking the frequency, hearing nothing, and QSYing.

    73,

          Dave, AA6YQ
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NU4B
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« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2011, 12:52:06 PM »

Speaking of Big Guns......  VU4PB has been QRV two days now.  One NA station (W3**L) has spotted them 3 or 4 times on 20m plus other bands. Now, I did NOT say he was working them on 20m that often, but I dont know many guys who get their jollies SPOTTING the DX and not working them Huh. Sure, he has the right to work them a dozen times on each band. Some of us have other lives besides ham radio Grin. A$$holes like him are the type that get their coax pinned. Shame I dont live closer.......

 Gene,
   I think W3LPL has some kind of automatic spotting program hooked up. If you track what's getting spotted nobody could be that many places on so many bands in the time frame involved. Plus its almost continuous. And bar the door if your trying to contact a station the program spots. All I can say is - somebody make it stop, please! Why doesn't he try to help the sideband people for a while? Because its based on the computer reading code I guess, identifying the station, then automatically sending it to DX Summit. The rig must be set up to scan the CW bands. So now you can't even search the bands yourself for stations calling CQ or the end of a QSO or ragchew because this thing will have it spotted before you get there. What a headache!

I think it represents perhaps the most selfless, giving, egalitarian combination of computers+radio to promote CW communication, that I could imagine. How you think it is taking something away from you, is kinda sad.

Oh wow, I didn't realize that!
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NU4B
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« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2011, 01:31:49 PM »

How does W3LPL's RBN spots get fed to the DX Summit? It seems to be the only one.
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W2IRT
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« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2011, 03:45:40 PM »


1.  "Daily DX" publisher Bernie W3UR sometimes uses neighbor Frank W3LPL's station, and may be responsible for some of those spots
Yup, I often hear Bernie in the pileups working the spotted station. Sometimes I even beat him to it :-D

2. You're not forced to use the reverse beacon network as a spot source
I just have the cluster connected to my logger by way of AR-User software. If it's spotted on the cluster I get it regardless of who spotted it, provided it matches my filters. Since Frank's station in MD has similar propagation to me, I always accept spots from MD. I guess the only way would be for me to filter out his call, which I don't really want to do.

Personally, what I really like about the cluster network is that most spots originate from stations that aren't contest super-stations -- meaning a far greater chance that I'll be able to copy any given spot if propagation is favouring me. To have a super-station flood the network means two negatives: 1) a rare station running a frequency will get spotted repeatedly (I'm guessing the RBN is looking for CQs? - not sure) and the ensuing pileup will get even crazier than it otherwise might and 2) there will be numerous spots for DX that only the biggest stations will be able to work, meaning alarms will be going off constantly for guys who need certain active entities buy don't have 200' towers and stacks of their own. In a contest, that's great and I hope to see numerous RBN floods. Day to day, not so much.

But like I said, I see the upside too and I gotta say I've worked a few bandfills from his RBN spots in the last couple of weeks. Maybe one possible solution would be to put a filter in to not spot any given call more than once every 60 minutes if the frequency/mode is the same (say, 14005.0 vs. 14004.1, etc).
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 03:48:28 PM by W2IRT » Logged

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K9NW
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« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2011, 04:41:10 PM »

Quote
there will be numerous spots for DX that only the biggest stations will be able to work, meaning alarms will be going off constantly for guys who need certain active entities buy don't have 200' towers and stacks of their own.

But do you know for sure he is using the "contest" arrays for this?  It may be just a suitably placed vertical to catch stuff from all directions.  Otherwise someone would still have to be there switching antennas for all the different paths/times/bands.
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AB8MA
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« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2011, 12:00:10 PM »

I cannot help but question (strongly) the accuracy of some of W3LPL's spots.

Below is a search for 200 spots of S21YZ on 30 meters. Note the very first spot on the bottom. They were on 7.018 at that time, but I do not think they were on 10.118.

Callsign=S21YZ Band=30 Reporter=WW Number=200 Search_before=2011-03-16


Callsigns     YY/MM/DD UTC     FREQ   Remarks                         Reporter
=================================================================================
S21YZ         11/03/16 1325Z  10137.0 up-1                            UN3F      
S21YZ         11/03/16 1306Z  10138.0 TNX! 73! UP                     UA9UDR    
S21YZ         11/03/16 1249Z  10138.0 RTTY CQ                         JH3EDG-#  
S21YZ         11/03/16 1223Z  10108.0 Tnx New Band, Aloha, up 2       KH6CG    
S21YZ         11/03/16 1218Z  10108.0 up for USA                      JA4DND    
S21YZ         11/03/16 1218Z  10108.2                                 N6HC      
S21YZ         11/03/16 1142Z  10108.0 tks                             UA0ABB    
S21YZ         11/03/15 2055Z  10118.8                                 W3LPL    
Searched until 10/11/28 , if you need more search please set "Search before" and search again .

« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 12:07:23 PM by AB8MA » Logged
AA6YQ
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« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2011, 10:25:01 PM »

I cannot help but question (strongly) the accuracy of some of W3LPL's spots.

Below is a search for 200 spots of S21YZ on 30 meters. Note the very first spot on the bottom. They were on 7.018 at that time, but I do not think they were on 10.118.

You forgot the proof that what you think is always correct.
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AB8MA
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« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2011, 06:43:45 AM »

I cannot help but question (strongly) the accuracy of some of W3LPL's spots.

Below is a search for 200 spots of S21YZ on 30 meters. Note the very first spot on the bottom. They were on 7.018 at that time, but I do not think they were on 10.118.

You forgot the proof that what you think is always correct.


Well, there is that. I thought that was a given. Smiley


But really. If it is a 'bot, can it be accurate?  To err is human, to err 10000000 times a second requires a computer.

Callsigns     YY/MM/DD UTC     FREQ   Remarks                                             Reporter
=================================================================================
  W3LPL         11/03/16 0046Z  10105.0 PLEASE STOP REPOSTING SPOTS!!   W3LPL    
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 02:08:54 PM by AB8MA » Logged
AA6YQ
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« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2011, 05:19:19 PM »

But really. If it is a 'bot, can it be accurate?  

Where's the evidence that it's a bot?

Did you subject it to a Turing test? Did you pass?


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K3ZL
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« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2011, 10:14:41 AM »

  The main point I was trying to make is if you have worked station XYZ4X on Sunday why do you have the need to work him the very next day on the same band when you can hear a pile up taking place? 

I agree totally.  He has the RIGHT to work that DX station as many times as he wants, but to me it's an example of Liditis. Afterall, all you really need is confirmation of callsign, signal report, location and a QSL. One QSO takes call of all of this.
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K1DA
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« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2011, 06:42:32 PM »

     Tuned acrosss 17 today.  It is really starting to sound good.  Last year at this time I was working all sorts of stuff with 100 watts and a folded dipole.  (no it does not have a brand name)  This year everybody is running a killerwatt, even though conditions are better.  Hey, I can do it too, just mash the amp switch, but but seeemed more fun to enjoy periods of great  low power propagation without monkey chatter eveywhere.  I suspect 6 meters will be enhanced by the everything to the right set to the same degree.  Where in Elmer school did it say you need to run 1000 watts when 100 will do?  Is there a sepcial klub for people who own more that one 7500 dollar radio?
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K3ZL
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« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2011, 07:41:27 AM »

Where in Elmer school did it say you need to run 1000 watts when 100 will do? 
I believe that the FCC requires amateurs to use the minimum amount of power necessary to communicate.
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AB3CX
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« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2011, 09:15:36 AM »

The Skimmer spots can't differentiate between a pirate and the real thing, the skimmer is just reading CW, detecting a CQ, and spotting. There is no human judgement involved. So the ethics of Skimmer spotting is a topic for debate just like Skimmer assistance was for the contesters.  There are just too many spots in general, now it's out of human hands?
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AE4RV
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« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2011, 09:56:23 AM »

The Skimmer spots can't differentiate between a pirate and the real thing, the skimmer is just reading CW, detecting a CQ, and spotting. There is no human judgement involved. So the ethics of Skimmer spotting is a topic for debate just like Skimmer assistance was for the contesters.  There are just too many spots in general, now it's out of human hands?

I agree 100%. It's so rare to find DX yourself and expect the pileup to be small for any length of time. And now we're letting bots spot for the clusters. Perhaps a rule against DX cluster spotting for the WARC bands? Unrealistic, but fun to think about...
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N5UD
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« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2011, 09:45:10 AM »

Nice discussion. Some think it is OK to work 4A 25 times. Maybe that guy in Europe with a dipole would like ONE QSO. If it was about just number of QSO's, then why would VU4 even bother to listen for U.S. ? No sometimes its about a NEW ONE.

I have emailed Frank on the CW skimmer. He says he is getting a software update that should limit  some of posting. I pointed out that sometimes his skimmer just keeps posting the same stations. I even noted on one station, out of the last 20 spots, 17 was the skimmer. I find most his spots useless. I am not on the east coast. I can not hear the central Asia station on 40 meters with it being 2 hours before sundown here. However some on the east coast may like that spot. I doubt the guy with the dipole would benefit. As for using a lesser antenna for the robot, he did not correct me when I said he was using the big arrays for the spots. I told Frank I did not mind the skimmer spotting, just put a limit on it.

The pileups. I caught two fairly nice African stations CQing this week. One even a repeated a CQ before I could get the antenna tuned to freq. One I worked first call. Then the pileup started. The other I had to fight for a while. A pile up. When I checked the cluster back home, I am mobile you know, the first guy that worked one besides me had them up on the cluster. Well at least it wasn't W3LPL. There seems to be a first to make the spot competition.

73 and good DX to all

N5UD
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