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Author Topic: D-star nay sayers don't make sense to me  (Read 15625 times)
WG8Z
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2011, 05:18:44 AM »

YAWN
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N1OFJ
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2011, 12:35:59 PM »

After trying D-STAR and comparing it with P25...P25 wins hands down..in terms of range and recovered audio quality.
With D-STAR, you are stuck with one brand only...with P25, you have choices
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KG4RUL
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2011, 01:05:38 PM »

D-star yea sayers don't make sense to me
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KX5JT
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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2011, 03:56:54 AM »

Didn't Luke Skywalker destroy the D-star?  Wink
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KV4BL
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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2011, 05:19:56 AM »

D-star yea sayers don't make sense to me

I have to agree!  I purchased a couple of Icom 2820's with D-Star modules about four years ago.  At the time my step-dad, another friend, and myself were the only people around here that had D-Star that I am aware of.  We played around on simplex and it was interesting and had really good audio quality.  Other friends came on the air with D-Star ht's and again, it was fun on simplex when we happened to be in range of one another.  Then some of the friends added one repeater and then others in the area.  It was more interesting.  Then came the D-Star network and all the suckiness that goes with it.  The audio quality is something akin to fingernails on a chalkboard.   Even though I am supposedly now logged in as a member of the local network with all due access to the great D-Star yonder, I can only communicate with people on the local machine.  I hear the droning conversations about the nation and the world, but if they are not on the local repeater by which I hear them, I cannot talk to them.   If you are not intuitively a computer/digital geek, help and elmering is pretty much non-existent in the D-Star world.   I have been told, "there's a D-Star calculator on such-and-such site, but if I don't know what to do with it, a lot of good that does.

Add to that, whatever brain spasms SERA was having to begin allocating D-Star repeaters between 145 MHz analog repeaters, thereby causing all kind of interference in many cases to analog users and you have the makings for my less than enthusiastic attitude about D-Star.  I keep hearing bleating about how we need to be on the cutting edge of technology with this digital garbage.   All it is that I can determine is a raspy-sounding version of analog that has the cute feature of allowing your name and call sign to display on another user's screen. Whooppee...  One of the things that has allowed ham radio to work when other things did not for many decades was its simplicity.   Adding digital circuitry and internet connections only complicates things and increases the chance of failure when you need it the most.

If we just HAD to start fooling with digital, APCO-25 would have made infinitely more sense.   Just as has been the case for many years, old public safety and business equipment will eventually become available to the ham world.   Old APCO-25 public safety gear would match with APCO-25 new ham gear much better.   I guess that would have made too much sense.
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KG4OLW
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« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2011, 05:39:17 PM »

I will admit I am a complete novice when it comes to D-star and APCO-25. But I do have a little D-star HT and a DVAP since there are no D-star repeaters in my area. I have really enjoyed the fact that D-star allows you to connect to repeaters and hams all over the world. I am not sure if APCO-25 has this functionality or not.

I do know that the networking features are one of the things I think makes D-star so much fun. I have a friend out of state and I love that fact I can put in a direct call to him, and D-star will link us over the Internet to bridge up his local repeater to my DVAP.

I think saying that one mode is better than the other is a mistake. D-star was created for the amateur service and is packaged in amateur radios. Ham radio is one of those hobbies where there is room for everyone and every mode. In my city there is a large group of hams that participate in ares, races, and skywarn. I have a very good friend with a kenwood handheld that is used primarily for monitoring police and fire, and rarely used for talking to other amateurs. I have no interest in these organizations and find listening to fire and police communications a bore, but there are a great many hams who love to do practice runs at the local EOC, even convinced some local municipalities to loan them APCO radios on the the state and local network in case of an emergency.

While I find the whole idea of pretending to be a first responder carrying around the official radios a bit pretentious and ridiculous. I don't begrudge them their fun. After all amateur radio is a hobby and if they want to modify commercial gear and play around with APCO-25 more power to them. But the same courtesy should be extended to hams who have no interest in modifying commercial radios channelized or not. I love my ic-92ad, and really like the yeasu vx-8dr models. I love the features and gadgets and could care less that they do not interoperate with the government equipment. So I don't see why we cannot have our cake and eat it too, for those hams that like D-star and want D-star let them, for those that want to be G.i. Joe (just kidding) let them run around and play fireman. There is enough unused spectrum in the ham bands for all of us to coexist.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 08:46:47 PM by KG4OLW » Logged
K1CJS
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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2011, 08:10:33 AM »

Internet Linking - the Achilles heel of D-STAR.

If you haven't been watching, you do not need D-Star to link a 2 meter radio--or ANY ham radio--to the internet.  If that is why people are so hot up about D-Star, that's why it hasn't gone much of anywhere.

To a lot of hams, D-Star is a digital mode that doesn't do as well as the long used analog modes in some instances.  If D-Star showed itself to be superior to traditional FM communications, it would have taken off as soon as it was introduced.  The only thing it may be superior to is AM--and AM isn't in widespread use like FM is--or used to be.
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KG4OLW
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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2011, 12:47:50 PM »

No you are right of course their are internet linking technologies like wires and echolink, however I cant type in a call sign and have echolink or wires connect to the appropriate place.
mycall: kg4olw
urcall:  (the ham I wish to speak to)
r1:w4xxx   c  (not so hard r1 is the repeater I am using and c is the band in this case 2 meters)
r2:w4xxx   g (g is the exit interface in this case the internet, all call signs must be 8 characters)

Thats it, when I hit transmit it will find that ham and connect me. There is no magic sauce with calculators or anything special, there is only one rule. Repeater call signs must be 8 characters long and the last character must include a command or a band.

a = 1.2ghz
b = 440mhz
c = 2 meters
g = internet

Thats it. i shouldn't expect that to be too dificult for people to understand.

If you want to talk to a ham on the same repeater than r1 and r2 are the same, the name of the local repeater and the last character is the band, whats neat is if I am on C (or 2 meters) and you are on 1.2ghz (or A band), then I set r1 to kg4xxx c and I set r2 to kg4xxx a and the dstar system will connect us crossband. Like I said I am not sure if APCO-25 has all this functionality, but as long as its not in a fancy smancy amateur HT I am not interested. But if APCO-25 has this then thats great, because it's means all those guys who like the commercial gear can get the same functionality.


Internet Linking - the Achilles heel of D-STAR.

If you haven't been watching, you do not need D-Star to link a 2 meter radio--or ANY ham radio--to the internet.  If that is why people are so hot up about D-Star, that's why it hasn't gone much of anywhere.

To a lot of hams, D-Star is a digital mode that doesn't do as well as the long used analog modes in some instances.  If D-Star showed itself to be superior to traditional FM communications, it would have taken off as soon as it was introduced.  The only thing it may be superior to is AM--and AM isn't in widespread use like FM is--or used to be.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 06:35:51 PM by KG4OLW » Logged
W9PMZ
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« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2011, 05:35:20 PM »

"$200 for a chip that enables you to log in to the network over the internet is INSANE"

Is it really $200?

But it is no different than the digital (CDMA) cell phone you have.  Guess what, it has a CDMA chip that Qualcomm owns the property for...

The money is not in the hardware, it is in the software...

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
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KC8IUR
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Posts: 156




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« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2011, 04:22:15 AM »

Cell phones aren't toys. At least mine isn't.

And the cell phone equivalent of the DVAP, the femto-cell, was free to me.
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W9PMZ
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« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2011, 03:12:52 AM »

"Cell phones aren't toys. At least mine isn't."

A matter of perspective.  Cell phones are the communication toys for the masses...

Put 5 teenagers in the back of a minivan, all with cell phones.   30 years ago (without) you probably could bearly think above the din of the conservation.  Now?  The click click click of the cell phone keyboards while they text each other...

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
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W2TXB
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« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2011, 08:18:59 AM »

D-Star looks interesting to me, but I have no such systems in my area. Also, to the best of my knowledge, what I am looking for in a multiband FM mobile transceiver (6-M, 2-M and 450 mHz) does not exist with D-Star compatibility.

For EmComm and that sort of thing, D-Star could be very effective.

The price for the D-Star stuff will probably drop sometime in the future.
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K1CJS
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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2011, 08:45:16 AM »

....The price for the D-Star stuff will probably drop sometime in the future.

If it were going to, it would have dropped already.  It isn't in widespread use for that reason, and it doesn't look like it will be anytime soon.  D-Star is nice to see and use, but FM is still much better--especially in fringe areas.
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WB6DGN
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« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2011, 01:39:06 AM »

Quote
The price for the D-Star stuff will probably drop sometime in the future.
Based on my experience with other "off-shore" products, I fear that I'll be six feet under long before it does.

I have been looking at a digital mode that could be used with my 33cm repeater before it is finally deployed.  I've considered (A.) P25  Ready supply of Top End radios that need minimal or no modification for use on the ham band and, used, cost less than D-star.  (B.) MotoTrbo (TDMA), the only open source mode but low to mid tier radios and only one entry in the US market at present.  (C.)  D-star.  No 33cm radios available and conversion to D-star probably not possible/practical for the non technical ham.  Like it or not (and I don't, particularly) P25, at this point in time, appears to be the only reasonable choice.  And, I also concur that Icom has priced D-star out of the reach of many, if not most, hams.  How many hams are willing to pay HF radio prices for a VHF, or even dual band, radio?  You'd think that Icom would have learned the lesson from Sony with their heavy-handed Betamax tactics.  A superior piece of engineering down the drain simply because they had to milk every last penny out of every last customer.  HEY! Icom!  It isn't going to work for you either!
Tom DGN
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KC8IUR
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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2011, 10:34:32 AM »

There's an IC-91AD package for sale on QRZ right now for $350. Too bad i'm ring shopping, that's fool around money.
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