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Author Topic: Other than "5-9"  (Read 22108 times)

Posts: 335

« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2011, 09:57:41 AM »

Damn, Did you record it and can you play it back? I am dying to hear that exchange. Please do not tease us with this !

No I didn't.  Actually, this happened once before several months ago I think in a noncontesting setting also on a higher band.  I think the guy then asked if I were using a dummy load for an antenna.

Posts: 441


« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2011, 12:12:35 PM »

I was where you were OP, until it came time to give my first RS report...then I caved because I didn't want to be "that guy".

Any normal exchange, I'm honest. Contests...everyone is 5-9. Its conformist, yes.  But its like visiting someones home and choking down their terrible meal. Just do it and get it over with then get some McDonalds on the way home Wink


Posts: 47

« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2011, 09:22:54 AM »

How many ops in a contest goes back to edit from 5-9 to what ever the other op said? I assume if most have there logs set for 5-9 and someone says 4-4, they tap the space bar or enter and it is saved as automatic 5-9. So does anyone change it?

Posts: 8911


« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2011, 10:07:42 AM »

How many ops in a contest goes back to edit from 5-9 to what ever the other op said? I assume if most have there logs set for 5-9 and someone says 4-4, they tap the space bar or enter and it is saved as automatic 5-9. So does anyone change it?

That almost certainly depends on whether or not the RST is actually a required piece of information in the exchange.  Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.  If the contest doesn't require RST, writing down the "real one" you gave is kind of like writing down your name if you give it.  Not useful for the serious contester, so unlikely to get any attention.

But in some contests, maybe they spot-check RST between logs when it's available.   In that case, maybe you run the risk of getting dinged points for having the wrong one.

 I don't know which contests require RST and I don't know which ones CHECK to see if the reported numbers are accurate when both parties submit their logs.  But I can assure you that any serious contester in any contest that DOES check the reported numbers will record your given report.



Monkey/silicon cyborg, beeping at rocks since 1995.

Posts: 2572

« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2011, 11:47:40 AM »

The entire RST exchange is a joke. I have had contacts where the other station has asked me to phonetically pronounce many of the words and still get a "59" report.

Heck, I knew my signal was weak. I was running 20 watts to a contact four states over. An honest appraisal wold have been much more helpful. I have worked some stations that were barely heard through the static crashes, QRN and QRM. Those are the fun ones to make. Not Billy-Bob down the road who always works with a 1.5 KW amp.

I would prefer to hear an RSL and SNR value. At least to my engineers mind that means something.

Tisha Hayes

Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA
Lookout Mountain, Alabama
Free space loss (dB) = 32.4 + 20 × log10d + 20 × log10 f

Posts: 7718

« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2011, 12:50:53 PM »

Maybe your meter is lying to you...  Grin

Pepole just use the 59 exchange in contests because its fast, easy, and expected.

I too like to give 'accurate' reports but if your contesting it can really stumble things up.

"Get your receiver checked"  Grin funny. How does he know you don't have a paper clip for an antenna.

By the law of reciprocity if each station is running the same transmit power the received signal strength will be the same at each end fo the link. If he runs a beam and 100 watts and you run a vertical and 100 watts and he induces 50 uV at your receiver you induce 50 uV at his receiver. So why such a difference in signal reports? A defective receiver, someone doesn't have the preamp switched ON, non-reciprocal propagation (claimed to be rare)?

Posts: 12629

« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2011, 03:50:48 PM »

I have given out a lot of 55's 56's 57's as well as 59+5 or+20 as well as some 43's and 44's too. Point is what is the purpose or bother of saying they are all 59 because they are not.

Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..

Posts: 2243

« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2011, 07:15:03 PM »

He asked me what receiver I was running (7600) and then suggested I send it in to get fixed.
That reminds me of a time I was hunting & pouncing during a contest.
I came across a guy transmitting; "Is this frequency in use?"
And the reply was: "Is your receiver in use?"   Grin

As to the topic, 59 or 599 is the default contest signal report and always will be.
Either get over it, quit contesting, or start your own "Honest-To-God Signal Report Contest." 
Wanna guess how many contestants will STILL send 59? 

Posts: 102

« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2011, 07:39:11 PM »

By the law of reciprocity if each station is running the same transmit power the received signal strength will be the same at each end fo the link.

I don't think that's necessarily true.  It applies only if both directions' signals use exactly the path (not just the physical, 3D arc it travels, but the entirety of the electromagnetic environment it experiences on that arc).  In practice, in the Earth's atmosphere, transmission paths are not always the same in both directions, sometimes not even throughout a transmission. If you really want to be pedantic, they may not even be the same in one direction through the length of a dah.  Scatter and Auroral would be extreme examples.  And even when both directions use the same path, the two paths aren't always "electromagnetically reciprocal".  If my memory is correct, this non-reciprocity is even discussed in the current Gordon West prep book for the Extra exam.

Posts: 108

« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2011, 08:58:02 PM »

I have NEVER YET seen anything mentioned in any published contest rules saying that all reports are to be 5-9 or 599 when signal reports are part of the mandatory exchange.  They just say "signal report". Look in any ARRL handbook to learn the definitions of the numbers 1-5 and 1-9 in signal reports.

I don't do a lot of contest operating, but you can be damned sure that when I do, I'll give an honest, bona fide signal report based on the standard definitions of R, S and T.  Get over it.

Don k4kyv

Posts: 217

« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2011, 02:25:59 AM »

I am a believer in honest signal reports.  A previous response makes me wonder about what to give an operator who has a great signal but the problem is the THICK ACCENT.  I have to ask the operator to repeat things due only to his accent.   That is not a signal issue but it IS a readability issue.  Do I still give this operator a 5 if his signal is fine?  Or do I drop it down to a 4 or 3 due to accent readability?


Posts: 481

« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2011, 05:48:41 AM »

They just say "signal report".

Yes. Just "signal report".

Doesn't say "Precise and Accurate RST Signal Report Strictly According To Official ARRL Handbook Criteria Averaged Over A Period of 10 Minutes With Filters and RF Gain Set According to Standard Settings as Read on a NIST Calibrated S-Meter".

RST is subjective.  It's based on opinion of someone's signal, not on a calibrated hardware definition.

I only work stations in contests that are in my opinion "59", so all my signal reports are totally honest.  How you going to prove me wrong?

I think most of the time in contests people ask for repeats because there was QRM, which is extremely common during contests, and not because the signal was anything less than a R5  Look at the ARRL RST definition. It makes no allowances for the effects of QRM on the signal readability. Therefore the ARRL RST system is not even applicable to contests.

Do you ragchew? Have you ever been in a QSO where the "signal report" changes with time? Maybe you start out at R5 then the signal dips and he's an R3 for awhile, then comes back up and R5 again.

The defintion of readability does not include a time-scale requirement. You may ask for a repeat several times and not be able to read what he's saying, but then the last time you hear it clearly. So what signal report do you log? Well of course the only one that counts, the last one where you read him 100%. The previous attempts are irrelevant.

By definition, if you eventually copy the full exchange, he's an R5. 100% copy. Definition of "R" doesn't specify how many tries it takes.

As for the S9, that's actually fairly arbitrary.  The S number I perceive depends on how I have my filters and RF gain set up. I can make a signal very loud or very soft just by turning knobs. So I simply turn the knobs and punch the buttons until it's the strongest signal in my pass band, which makes it by definition an S9.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 05:50:47 AM by NN4RH » Logged

Posts: 481

« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2011, 06:12:41 AM »

So "59" makes perfect sense to a contester.

What I think is super ridiculous is the practice mostly on 75 and 40 meter phone nets of telling someone they're "40 over S9". or "40 over 9" or other nonsense.

That's like giving a signal report of "You're 10 thousand times stronger than Extremely Strong". It's be equivalent to something like an S17. Nonsense!

I can't find anything in the ARRL Handbook RST definition that says that a signal can be stronger than S9 "Extremely Strong".

The guy who they think is "40 over" is really S9, because he's the strongest signal. Everyone else weaker than that (even if they're "20 over") would by the ARRL Definition be less than S9.

So should we call people who like to work nets liars because they're not giving "accurate" signal reports ?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 06:15:22 AM by NN4RH » Logged

Posts: 350

« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2011, 09:40:44 AM »

This whole thing is extremely silly.

The "real" signal report versus the "fake" one is just a red herring.

In fact, considering that the original poster put this on the "Contest" forum, it is a troll pure and simple.

So it's done what was intended, and that was to get the two groups arguing with each other.

Congratulations to the original poster.

What's next, a CW troll?

Maybe an anti CB troll?

How about the old internet standby: Spelling and grammar?

Geeze Louise!

Stop the insanity!

I'll got get my meds...

73 Gary

Posts: 1625

« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2011, 09:44:06 AM »

I operated in a 160 M contest back in 1990 using 100 watts to a random wire out my apartment window. I got LOTS of 559 reports, (I probably deserved 429 reports!), but I don't think I have logged much other than 599 in YEARS. I agree, it is like a preamble, like "get ready to copy".

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